Not that long ago, an 18-year-old student named Carly, appalled by the rampant misogyny on display at A Voice for Men, sent a critical but thoughtful email to a number of the men associated with the site challenging them to rise above their hatred of women.
AVFM “Managing Editor” Dean Esmay decided to take her email as an opportunity to reach out to all the Carlys out there in the world in an attempt to win them over to AVFM’s peculiar brand of “human rights activism,” penning what he called an
open letter … not just to you, but to any young woman who has an open mind and is willing to be challenged on her prejudices.
Naturally, given that Men’s Rights Activists are some of the most verbose douchebags in history, it was long as hell — some 3000 words. But Esmay’s diplomatically worded attempt at outreach didn’t go quite as well as he might have hoped. Carly responded with a note saying that his open letter had merely
reinforced everything I believe. It seems we are at a stalemate, you will never agree with me, and I will never agree with you.
So where might poor Dean Esmay might have gone wrong in his attempt to win Carly’s heart and mind?
Let’s start here, with 5 Arguments Least Likely To Convince A Young Woman That A Voice for Men Isn’t a Woman-Hating Piece of Shit Hate Site, in the form of direct quotes from The Esmay himself. Since Esmay is so long-winded, I’ve highlighted some of my favorite bits in bold.
1)“[Y]ou’re 18, and so, not to put too fine a point on it, you are still a young skull full of mush.”
2) “[M]en have few to no voices speaking about issues that are specific to men, or defending men as a group, in this society. Until very recently in history men never have had such a voice. Because pretty much all civilizations for the last few thousand years have prioritized the needs and desires of women over those of men. For hundreds, even thousands, of years.
3)“If you believe men have silenced women for thousands of years … you believe something that just not true. … Furthermore, if you believe that, what you have to believe is that Asian men have been oppressing Asian women for thousands of years, black men have been oppressing black women for thousands of years, European men, Australasian men, and so on, have all been oppressing their women for thousands of years. And those weak women could do nothing about it. So what you believe here isn’t just wrong, it’s racist.”
4) “For most of history, being female was a privilege. It carried certain special rights that only applied to women, and special responsibilities that only applied to women, and through most of history, being male was a burden, a burden which carried certain rights that only applied to men, and those rights were there mostly so they could discharge their duties to women properly.”
5) “[Y]ou may occasionally see angry remarks or articles on this site. What I would hope you would do with that, when you do see it, is contemplate that there is a difference between righteous anger at real injustice, and what you seem to have misinterpreted as hate.”
The funniest thing about Esmay’s “open letter” is that this bizarre crackpottery, easily seen through by anyone with any knowledge of history or sociology or, hell, the real world, is his attempt to sound as reasonable as possible. He’s reined in the wild conspiratorial ranting he often indulges in when arguing with ideological foes; he’s avoided the misogynistic slurs (cunt, bitch, whore) favored by other AVFMers like Paul Elam and Diana Davison. And this is the best he can manage.
The Men’s “Human Rights” Movement isn’t ready for its close-up. And I suspect that it never will be.
EDITED TO ADD: A commenter has pointed out another quote I should have included as well. So here is BONUS EXTRA LEAST CONVINCING DEAN ESMAY ARGUMENT NUMBER SIX:
6) “The truth is, the most privileged class of people in the whole wide world are young women living in places like the US, UK, Canada, etc.–and if you want to be treated like an equal, you should not flinch or cry like a little girl if someone tells you that.“
How dare you accuse us of sexism, you spoiled little girl!
It’s not that they can’t be arsed to correct them – they simply won’t acknowledge that any stats giving them the lie can be correct.
@kitteh And having assembled some “stats” which confirm their bias, they’re never going to look any further.
I love that mouse video so much.
It’s hysterical that Esmay is berating Carly for being young and “having a brain full of mush” when it’s obvious to anyone with the slightest grasp of history and sociology that he’s talking out of his ass and lacks any critical thinking skills.
“If you believe men have silenced women for thousands of years … you believe something that just not true. … Furthermore, if you believe that, what you have to believe is that Asian men have been oppressing Asian women for thousands of years, black men have been oppressing black women for thousands of years, European men, Australasian men, and so on, have all been oppressing their women for thousands of years. And those weak women could do nothing about it. So what you believe here isn’t just wrong, it’s racist.”
It was at this point that I burst out laughing.
Is it me, or does that mouse video need this?
Thanks, House Mouse Queen! That’s drastically improved my evening!
Wait. Women haven’t been oppressed? Right. My nana was forced to stop working when she got married. When she was allowed back to work, she wasn’t allowed to be payed superannuation. Since she only got paid superannuation later in life (and her husband died when they were in their 50s) she is still working full time in her 70s. Soooo. Yeh. I think that bit if history shows how women have been oppressed in recent memory… But hey AVfM. You’re totally more oppressed since you’ve always been allowed to work/get super.
LOL that’s just the theme for that video.
On the subject of oppression: everyone knows it’s kitties who are really oppressed. Why, Maddie was down to the last couple dozen nibbies in her bowl just now. That’s the second time since last night, too!
“Oh and pure mouseling!”
Oh, mousey I feel ya. I look like that whenever I try to reach for something as well.
Fine, I won’t. Because I’m not a little girl, I’m a grown-ass woman (i.e. Sexually Invisible to these guys). I won’t flinch; I’ll just yell BULLSHIT!!! at the top of my grown-ass lungs.
@kitteh
Poor Mads! Her bowl was probably something like this:
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/d8/15/c1/d815c1acff3a2f646f2799bffe8bb777.jpg
It should never look like that, servant.
http://media-cache-cd0.pinimg.com/736x/ea/6d/e3/ea6de302d4c482b61b38cf9ff61ebe76.jpg
Honestly…does ASSmay think we all go through life with our own personal Sir Walter Raleigh in tow, ready to fling down his cloak on every mud puddle we chance to see? What a fuckwit.
Once again, you are Queen of the Internets, neuroticbeagle! That’s exactly how Mads does it (though she cheats and eats the stuff around the edge, leaving a patch in the middle with nibbies).
Terribul, terribul oppression.
Gee, is that anything like when MRAs mansplain to women how their minds and bodies work?
“Terribul, terribul oppression.”
THIS explains the MRAs. They have confused women with CATS! Meow!
Or they have confused themselves with cats – totes oppressed when the servants/women aren’t filling their bowls/making sammiches for them instantly.
I can more easily believe the kitty oppression.
In the comments, more eloquent arguments guaranteed to convince unbiased visitors that AVFM is not at all misogynist:
You’re forgetting; she’s a girl. Start throwing facts at her after her emotional e-mail, all you’ll be doing is getting her to roll her eyes. If she were a boy, facts would work, but not girls.
“Think about rainbows, butterflies, and unicorns, while we all run around in erratic circles, desperately trying to avoid being captured by men in white coats armed with tranquilizer darts. -Yeahh, feminism!!”
Feelings ran amuck! Didn’t I say this? It explains why feminism is so hard to get through to. They do not WANT to believe the real truth…so they won’t!
Another givaway that Carly is a lost cause of entitlement is her adolescent demand to be taken seriously. Apparently, it has never occured to this partciluar snowflake that being taken seriously is not a right – it is something that is earned.
All with upvotes.
Lots of commenters interpreted Carly’s email and followup as “emotional” or otherwise representative of female irrationality, even though she comes across as calm and thoughtful and gives specific reasons for her criticisms. Of course Esmay’s long-winded responses, in which he asserts few arguments beyond “you’re a girl and younger than me, so you must be wrong” and repeatedly makes excuses for the emotional temper tantrums and lack of reliable facts on his site, are applauded as great rational arguments.
Very difficult to respond to this piece of demagoguery – as usual, facts are strange alien things that float around in the sky and are never grasped. This man is both stupid and disturbed. That he has found a home on Paul Elam’s site is easy to understand. He shows here that he’s incapable of discussing anything with a woman without patronizing, dismissing, humiliating and denigrating her.
Women will never get respect from MRAs, auggz, whether we are silent or not. We’re either things to be fucked or things to serve them in other ways, not human. Only straight white cis men are human.
I have to say, as someone who is under 18, it’s extremely annoying when people make a ‘you’re young, so you don’t know anything’ argument. Because I know that people only turn to that argument when they have nothing left to say, and how can I defend myself against it? It’s not like I can suddenly make myself older.
But yes, this only just highlights the nonsensical whining that is the men’s rights movement, if only in fancier wording.
Unrelated to the post: Hello, everyone, I’m finally de-lurking.
So, if young women are more privileged than older women (hey, he said it himself, even if he didn’t mean to), then why would that be? Might it have something to do with patriarchy valuing women mostly for their bodies? Or could it simply be that dudes like Esmay see “privileged” as meaning “woman I want to fuck who for some ridiculous and unfair reason is allowed to say no”?
“Think about rainbows, butterflies, and unicorns, while we all run around in erratic circles, desperately trying to avoid being captured by men in white coats armed with tranquilizer darts. -Yeahh, feminism!!”
What?
It’s a response agreeing with another post, which I didn’t quote because it just went on and on and on, warning that Carly’s email, like all reasonable-seeming arguments from feminists, was just a clever trick to trap men into eternal female servitude. You see, if you agree to an honest debate or accept that there’s anything positive about women or equal rights, you will go INSANE.
Or something. I don’t know. You may have noticed these guys aren’t very good at writing.
Why should writing be the exception …
Carly enjoyed the privilege of not being taken seriously, I’m sure.
Ugh. I just got called the c-word over at Gawker for daring to point out that atheists sometimes get discriminated against and Christianity is privileged in the western world.
Off topic I know, but it pissed me off.
::rolls eyes:: Nice piece of Christian fail they did, calling you that, WWTH.