Not that long ago, an 18-year-old student named Carly, appalled by the rampant misogyny on display at A Voice for Men, sent a critical but thoughtful email to a number of the men associated with the site challenging them to rise above their hatred of women.
AVFM “Managing Editor” Dean Esmay decided to take her email as an opportunity to reach out to all the Carlys out there in the world in an attempt to win them over to AVFM’s peculiar brand of “human rights activism,” penning what he called an
open letter … not just to you, but to any young woman who has an open mind and is willing to be challenged on her prejudices.
Naturally, given that Men’s Rights Activists are some of the most verbose douchebags in history, it was long as hell — some 3000 words. But Esmay’s diplomatically worded attempt at outreach didn’t go quite as well as he might have hoped. Carly responded with a note saying that his open letter had merely
reinforced everything I believe. It seems we are at a stalemate, you will never agree with me, and I will never agree with you.
So where might poor Dean Esmay might have gone wrong in his attempt to win Carly’s heart and mind?
Let’s start here, with 5 Arguments Least Likely To Convince A Young Woman That A Voice for Men Isn’t a Woman-Hating Piece of Shit Hate Site, in the form of direct quotes from The Esmay himself. Since Esmay is so long-winded, I’ve highlighted some of my favorite bits in bold.
1)“[Y]ou’re 18, and so, not to put too fine a point on it, you are still a young skull full of mush.”
2) “[M]en have few to no voices speaking about issues that are specific to men, or defending men as a group, in this society. Until very recently in history men never have had such a voice. Because pretty much all civilizations for the last few thousand years have prioritized the needs and desires of women over those of men. For hundreds, even thousands, of years.
3)“If you believe men have silenced women for thousands of years … you believe something that just not true. … Furthermore, if you believe that, what you have to believe is that Asian men have been oppressing Asian women for thousands of years, black men have been oppressing black women for thousands of years, European men, Australasian men, and so on, have all been oppressing their women for thousands of years. And those weak women could do nothing about it. So what you believe here isn’t just wrong, it’s racist.”
4) “For most of history, being female was a privilege. It carried certain special rights that only applied to women, and special responsibilities that only applied to women, and through most of history, being male was a burden, a burden which carried certain rights that only applied to men, and those rights were there mostly so they could discharge their duties to women properly.”
5) “[Y]ou may occasionally see angry remarks or articles on this site. What I would hope you would do with that, when you do see it, is contemplate that there is a difference between righteous anger at real injustice, and what you seem to have misinterpreted as hate.”
The funniest thing about Esmay’s “open letter” is that this bizarre crackpottery, easily seen through by anyone with any knowledge of history or sociology or, hell, the real world, is his attempt to sound as reasonable as possible. He’s reined in the wild conspiratorial ranting he often indulges in when arguing with ideological foes; he’s avoided the misogynistic slurs (cunt, bitch, whore) favored by other AVFMers like Paul Elam and Diana Davison. And this is the best he can manage.
The Men’s “Human Rights” Movement isn’t ready for its close-up. And I suspect that it never will be.
EDITED TO ADD: A commenter has pointed out another quote I should have included as well. So here is BONUS EXTRA LEAST CONVINCING DEAN ESMAY ARGUMENT NUMBER SIX:
6) “The truth is, the most privileged class of people in the whole wide world are young women living in places like the US, UK, Canada, etc.–and if you want to be treated like an equal, you should not flinch or cry like a little girl if someone tells you that.“
How dare you accuse us of sexism, you spoiled little girl!
Like being white was a burden. Leave it for Paul Elam to ape racists unironically.
And the one time I don’t stop to check a name twice, I end up botching it. Good jorb, me.
Excuse me while I pick my jaw up off the floor.
I “love” this bit of logic:
For believing something has no race basis, you’re a racist!
So that explains the MRA “thinking”: if you think about the genders separately, you’re a sexist!
*thinko: so if you think that outcomes should be the same for both genders, you’re a sexist!
The only “young skull full of mush” around here is mine, as a result of reading…. whatever that godawful pile of piss was.
you are still a young skull full of mush.
At least she’s young. What’s Esmay’s excuse?
No, but you see, men have been oppressing themselves for thousands of years – all to benefit women – out of the kindness of their own hearts – because women compelled them to do so – because women are more valued by society – which is apparently not actually made up of men or women. It’s just so simple!
Uh, I’m not sure how saying that black men oppressed black women is racist?
Oh wait, no, I just figured it out. Just like they believe “feminism” means “everything every woman ever in the world ever does is good and righteous”, they believe that “anti-racism” means “everything every POC ever in the world ever does is good and righteous”.
Patriarchal cultures result in men as a group oppressing women as a group. And most cultures are patriarchal. So yeah, POC men have largely been oppressing POC women. It isn’t just a white people problem.
Ha ha ha ha what
How could these people ever hope to rewrite the world history I wonder.
Yes, women have been opressed for that long and there is nothing curious about it, history is full of opressed groups of people, slaves etc for really long periods of time, that’s like asking what took it so long for people to create democratic societies for example.
You know, I think you are being a bit hard on Deano there. After all, he managed not to start out “Listen here, missy!”
The race argument is truly something to behold.
I am honestly curious as to how he’d respond if asked why it isn’t also racist to say that men are oppressed by women, by the exact same logic.
No worries, Dean. I’m sure you could have put an even finer point on it if you really tried.
Sometimes I think MRAs believe that there are 3 life stages for women: 1) child, 2) child-with-boobs (fair game!) and 3) old disgusting crone.
Hell, it isn’t even young women it won’t convince; everyone who isn’t already a part of that movement will have trouble buying such shit arguments as well. Most men I know would laugh this shit off too, just like most white people I know laugh off the arguments of neo-nazis and holocaust deniers. These arguments are just unrelentingly absurd. They like to think they will have the support of people everywhere, especially men, if they can only reach them. They really, really don’t.
Bowel movements are more useful than MRAs.
Wheww! Okay now that I have stopped screaming at my Ipad… I Knew It!
I just knew I was going to be astonished at the level of wtfckery that would be on display today, even though yesterday’s level of a**hattery was pretty awful.
No liquor but I’m going to treat myself to a Bon-Bon for having read that. (Virtual Bon-Bons for everyone who reads that.)
@Kiwi girl: Yep. I mean, at least bowel movements get rid of shit. 😛
Now’s the time to get your last-minute discount Valentine’s candy. They were selling big samplers at Ralph’s for $1.20. Had to exercise self-control not to just buy all of them.
@Lkeke35, thanks for the bon bon! Please enjoy this Welcome Package.
AnonaMiss, you know, I really should have included that one too. I’m going to add it as a EXTRA SPECIAL BONUS ARGUMENT.
In the comments, Esmay elaborates on his appalling comment about “patriarchy theory” (ugh that phrase) is “racist”:
Note his extreme disingenuousness. He is trying to get the audience to agree with him on the grounds that his point is “common sense” in that anyone would see what he’s pointing out as an example of racism. But in truth, his argument is nothing but fluff. Esmay is assuming that one would necessarily talk to a man of color in a way that blames his own race specifically for patriarchal oppression. In fact, that’s what Esmay himself is doing when he insincerely says “damn Mexicans,” but of course all that matters to him is that his audience sees his arguments as “common sense.” And so his hypocrisy is conveniently ignored.
Also, womanism has a long history of critiquing black patriarchy, and it has done this easily without attacking the blackness of black men of color. Latina feminism, Islamic feminism, and many others have similarly critiqued patriarchy without being racist. If he had done his research for maybe 30 minutes, he would find out how terribly wrong he is. And if he had any sincere desire to be aware of his white privilege, he would also realize that assuming that critiques of non-white patriarchy are racist is itself racist because it erases the important social justice work women of color have done. For fuck’s sake, kyriarchy, womanism, Latina feminism, black feminism, intersectionality, Islamic feminism, etc. – all of these terms and concepts have come from women of color.
“Because pretty much all civilizations for the last few thousand years have prioritized the needs and desires of women over those of men. For hundreds, even thousands, of years.”
So is that why Confucius supposedly said “One thousand women are not worth a single testicle”? Because women were valued so much more than men? Is that why so many baby girls have been killed by female infanticide, so people could try again immediately for a boy? Because women were so much more privileged? This denial of history does not help their cause – it only makes them look foolish and strengthens the argument that their site is a hate site.
No wonder that university in Canada bailed out on the “Men’s studies” department – hooking up with these guys would have made them the laughing stock of academia.
“Although you are female, and so you are privileged in this area: men who try to talk about these things are usually personally attacked, and I would expect a boy taking classes with you to get a flunking grade just for having the audacity to present some of this information, at least if he did not come to conclusions that pleased his teachers. Because he’s a boy, and boys aren’t allowed to speak in ways that might upset women or which speak unapologetically about where men get the short end of the stick.”
-scrolls back through A Voice For Men tag on Manboobz
-harassment, threats, false accusations and doxxing galore
But, you know, it’s MRAs who are being personally attacked here. Their feelings are hurt and everything.
“lawyers, who these days are mostly women?”
A simple Google search shows this to be incorrect (at least in the U.S. and Canada). Women enter law school in roughly the same numbers as men, but drop out at much higher rates and are promoted in much smaller numbers than men.
BAM, 2 minutes of research:
http://www.catalyst.org/knowledge/women-law-us
http://www.wisegeek.org/what-percent-of-the-us-population-do-lawyers-comprise.htm
http://www.lawsociety.bc.ca/page.cfm?cid=3761&t=Demographics-of-the-profession-set-to-influence-the-delivery-of-legal-services-in-the-years-ahead
http://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/marketing/women/gender_equity_task_force/rhode.authcheckdam.pdf
http://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/administrative/legal_education_and_admissions_to_the_bar/statistics/jd_enrollment_1yr_total_gender.authcheckdam.pdf
If the American Bar Association isn’t a reliable source then I don’t know what is.
One more thing: Dean Esmay actually assumes without evidence that Carly is white even though he knows nothing else about her besides her letter and her name. He, like any white person unaware of their white privilege, must have assumed that her writing “sounded white.” I think he’s the one who should check his privilege.