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A Voice for Men takes on feminist [rhymes-with-bunts] with new poster campaign

No, this is real. I didn't make it up. I just blurred out the c-word.
No, this is real. I didn’t make it up. I just blurred out the c-word.

Last week I wrote about the fondness of a certain Men’s Rights website for a certain four-letter word starting with the letter c. This week they’ve topped themselves — with a postering campaign based on the c-word.

Yep: A Voice for Men has thrown its support behind a postering campaign with the slogan: “Having a vagina is no excuse for being a C*NT.”

They don’t use an asterisk.

The postering campaign, spearheaded by a Youtube antifeminist calling himself Bane666au, feature what purport to be real quotes from feminists alongside not-exactly-subtle stock photos depicting comically angry women. For example:

Every man is filth; I wish they were all dead."

I’m the one who blurred out the c-word; they left it intact. Other alleged feminist quotes include:

If a woman has drunk any amount of alcohol, she can’t consent to sex.

Nothing gives me more pleasure than the suffering of men.

Historically, women have been oppressed worse than black slaves.

That last one is a tad ironic. Not just because it’s a bit odd to contrast “women” and “black slaves” when half of all black slaves were women and girls. And not just because I never hear feminists making this claim. No, it’s a tad ironic because AVFM is constantly comparing men to slaves and suggesting that men are being “enslaved” by everything from child support payments to the women they date.

But I digress. You may wonder where exactly all these alleged quotes come from. In the comments to his AVFM post promoting the postering campaign, AVFM’s Dean Esmay blithely assures readers that “most or all” of the sources of the quotes can be found “right at the end of the video.”

This is not — how should I put it? — true. In fact, the percentage of quotations accurately sourced at the end of the video is a lot closer to “none” than to “most.” Bane666au, for his part, only claims that “all comments are based on actual comments I’ve seen or heard from self proclaimed feminists.”

Apparently he has an extremely loose definition of “based on” because only a couple of the actual quotes from Tumblr feminists he includes at the end of his video bear much resemblance to his, er, paraphrases.

Many of the alleged “hateful” quotes are obvious jokes, taken completely out of context, taking aim at popular perceptions of feminists. Here’s one screenshot from his video (with the name of the poster blurred out):

cnty3pn
So who is the terrible misandrist who posted this terrible thing? I went and looked at her Tumblr. It consists of a lot of arty photos of her, mixed with pictures of favorite bands, some of her own artwork — and various pictures of various boyfriends, all evidently remembered with much fondness. On Valentine’s Day she posted some Valentine’s Day cards she designed and drew, inspired by The Smiths and Fleetwood Mac. She’s an excellent artist. There was no hatred to be found there.

And it’s a little hard to see how anyone but a misogynist who has named himself after a Batman villain could possibly interpret this comment, from another Tumblr feminist, as “misandry.”

cnty1
And speaking of reasonable statements interpreted as misandry, here’s my favorite poster in Bane666‘s batch of posters:
cntypaid2

Now, I hope I don’t shock anyone here by saying it, but the wage gap is real. There’s some debate over the size of it, and to what degree it is appropriate to attribute the gap to women’s “choices” rather than discrimination. But it exists. Even the study most cited by those who like to downplay the gap, a 2009 Labor Department report prepared by the CONSAD Research Corp., found a roughly 5-7% wage gap that couldn’t be explained away by women’s “choices.” (See here for more.)

But MRAs have convinced themselves that the gender wage gap is a “myth.” Having failed to win over the rest of the world to this incorrect belief through the power of simple repetition, the folks at AVFM have evidently decided to move on to gendered slurs.

It will be interesting to see how this works out for them.

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Ally Fogg (@AllyFogg)
6 years ago

I can appreciate and understand your policy David. I think all blogs and all comment sections have their own dynamics and their own purpose.

One thing I’ve always wanted to do with my blog is provide a forum where people from across the gender politics spectrum, including many with whom I profoundly disagree, can debate issues with me and with each other. Often it ends messily, it is quite true. But other times we’ve ended up having some genuinely constructive debates. If people don’t think the quid pro quo is worth it, that’s fine, there are a million other gender blogs where people can find their preference.

Just for the record, marinerachel and others – I despise the label ‘equalist’ and never use it, or anything similar, and have blogged as to why. In a nutshell, it papers over structural inequalities and institutional oppression, and buys into the garbage that if we’d only all treat everyone equally, social and cultural oppression would disappear.

You must be mixing me up with someone else.

Ally Fogg (@AllyFogg)
6 years ago

emilygoddess

I honestly can’t tell if this is a joke or a threat.

Oh heavens. It was a joke.

leatapp
leatapp
6 years ago

It’s meant to be a joke.
Har, har…..

leatapp
leatapp
6 years ago

The gender politics spectrum, Ally? Is that like the race politics spectrum? Would you think that giving racists a chance to question the humanity of people of color led to constructive debate? You may indeed mean well, but what you are doing isn’t smart, fair and balanced or edgy, it’s just pandering to the bigots and providing them with one more space in which to lie, practice rape apology and regurgitate evo psyche, anti-feminist crap.

gillyrosebee
6 years ago

I was reading right along there and then suddenly I was asleep.

Alice’s poster is better than everything that AvF(H)M has ever put out (granted, that isn’t saying much on their part, but I still think that poster is awesome)!

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

I’m not on tumblr at all are assertations of “cisphobia” really a common thing there? I don’t even understand how that works. In what possible way are we oppressed and marginalized for being cis? I’m assuming it has something to do with people not wanting to getting called out and corrected for mislabeling?

On the subject of labeling, do people think it’s OK to label somebody an MRA even if doesn’t label himself that. I think that there are lot of MRA trolls out there who go incognito in comments sections because MRAs are so hated and they want to paint their positions as something reasonable that lots of non-MRAs agree with. Therefore, if somebody is spewing all the MRA talking points I will not hesitate to call that person an MRA.
Generally, I will refer to people as whatever label they wish to claim because it isn’t up to me to somebody else who they are or aren’t. But do I really need to be sensitive to someone who is saying bigoted things? I think not.

vaiyt
6 years ago

One thing I’ve always wanted to do with my blog is provide a forum where people from across the gender politics spectrum, including many with whom I profoundly disagree, can debate issues with me and with each other.

What you’re doing is demanding minorities sit around with bigots and have a nice chat over tea and crumpets about whether they’re truly human.

emilygoddess
6 years ago

Sorry, Ally, but there’s wasn’t much of a tone indication in your comment, I don’t know you from Adam, and this blog gets a lot of people’s dander up. Sue me.

hellkell
hellkell
6 years ago

The gender politics spectrum, Ally? Is that like the race politics spectrum? Would you think that giving racists a chance to question the humanity of people of color led to constructive debate? You may indeed mean well, but what you are doing isn’t smart, fair and balanced or edgy, it’s just pandering to the bigots and providing them with one more space in which to lie, practice rape apology and regurgitate evo psyche, anti-feminist crap.

THANK YOU, AMEN, AND FUCKIN’ A RIGHT.

I smell more than a whiff of disingenuous trying to have it both ways on that blog.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

Sorry my post is a mess. I forgot to proofread. 🙁

hellkell
hellkell
6 years ago

But do I really need to be sensitive to someone who is saying bigoted things? I think not.

Nope. They’ve pretty much forfeited the right to have their feels coddled.

Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

So very much behind, and so very much not playing with the (probably banned by now) dictionary troll. But that copy pasta about the word for a pregnant fish? Afaik there isn’t one. I use gravid, but that’s medical speak and in no way fish specific (also applies to fish with eggs, which is useful since I have no livebearers)

In any case I have never, not once, heard the recently modded word be applied to fish.

/fish aside

gillyrosebee
6 years ago

I was gonna wade in again on why language issues *are* important battles because of the way that language structures thought and expectations, and because insisting on purging slurs from public discourse is an important tool for ensuring the equal dignity of folks in public spaces, but I see that we’ve beaten that one pretty well this go around.

Well, except to respond to Felicia’s comment

I’m a little disturbed by all this talk about what words to use to describe foolish MRAs. I took a lot of heat in the reddit ‘againstmensrights’ for calling typhonblue an idiot. It felt like I was in a room full of her fans, not pro-feminists, more concerned about protecting the dignity of misogynists than exposing them.

by noting that it is difficult to claim the high ground if you are down in the pit slinging muck about. Insults are okay by me, and I have a particular love for “asshole” lately, having read Geoffrey Nunberg’s book, but slurs are just not. It’s hard for me to argue that one slur’s history (an abelist slur against the mentally ill, for example) sets it out of bounds while another is perfectly fine. It feels like a failure to be a good ally, if all I am concerned with are the slurs that affect me directly, instead of recognizing the problematic aspects of all identity-based slurs.

It also feels a little sloppy to argue that it’s okay to use an otherwise verboten term because you are using it to refer to horrible people (as Toots argued that the use of t*** couldn’t possibly be a gendered slur because zie was using it to refer to both a man and a woman). We don’t edit those words out of our vocabulary because we are drawing the line between who is and who is not deserving of an insult, we do so because the words themselves construct insults which rely for their force on a judgement of difference or deviance from a very tightly constrained norm as automatically and irredeemably bad.

I will note that I’ve found myself running into this particular issue with much more frequency out in meatspace lately, not sure why or what that signifies.

Seconding titianblue on the value and pleasure of digressiveness, though! I confess to having a passionate fascination with language and politics that makes stuff like this catnip for me!

Chie Satonaka
Chie Satonaka
6 years ago

So, that bill in Arizona is going to Jan Brewer’s desk for her signature or veto. I know this is all reactionary bullshit and signals the fact that the tide is really turning when it comes to LGBT rights, but the fact that six states are trying to pass laws that legalize discrimination against a specific group of people really makes me sad and angry.

gillyrosebee
6 years ago

Oh, and tumblr, like twitter but more so, seems to have developed into the a reservoir for the great steaming cesspool of the collective id in a way that makes me gag on a pretty regular basis

bluecat
bluecat
6 years ago

When I was at school we were told that the word “twit” means a pregnant salmon. However, as fish aren’t mammals, they don’t actually get pregnant – eggs are fertilised externally – so I can’t really see how that could be true.

I’m British, and I’m also a linguist who has researched the metaphor of insult, just to flash my credentials. The t-word of which SirToots was so enamoured certainly has the same denotation in British English as the c-word does: the female genitals. As an insult it doesn’t have exactly the same connotations: being called a c- suggests someone thoroughly obnoxious and nasty, whereas a t- implies more of a pathetically useless idiot, perhaps by assimilation to twit – but it’s definitely a gendered insult. Both are a notch or two worse than an equivalent insult from the male anatomy: a d-word is milder than a t- and a c- is lots worse than either.

The earliest example of the t- word I know off the top of my head is in an anonymous poem of the 17th century about someone who believes he’s going to be promoted to Cardinal – “the talk’d of his having a Cardinal’s hat, but they’d send him as soon an Old Nun’s t-” (which led Robert Browning 200 years later to believe the word meant a kind of headgear worn by medieval nuns, resulting in a poem which is never anthologised). The c-word is much older.

I do love the “get your behind out of our punchbowl” analogy. Cries of “but where I come from, buttocks enhance the convivial punch!” are not going to charm the partygoers.

gillyrosebee
6 years ago

Ohai, bluecat! Can I ask you a question as a British linguist? Is the word ‘cock’ considered as bad as an insult/interjection in England as it seems to be elsewhere? I hear James May use it quite a bit when I am streaming the beeb, while it always seems to get bleeped if I’m watching or listening to a different channel on this side of the pond.

Brooked
Brooked
6 years ago

” (which led Robert Browning 200 years later to believe the word meant a kind of headgear worn by medieval nuns, resulting in a poem which is never anthologised).

Off to google to find that poem.

Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

Bluecat — some fish do bear live young, mollies being the most commonly kept as pets (or maybe platies, idk). Neither salmon nor goldfish are livebearers though.

I’d be happy to talk fish reproduction all day 🙂

On topic — I think I get how they can use “don’t be that feminist” without knowing that they’re implying they don’t hate all feminists. These are the same fools who think “don’t be that guy” means all men are rapists.

As far as language goes, plenty of people over here seem to honestly not release that spaz is an insult specific to medical conditions and not akin to, idk, space cadet (is that one used against people with ADHD? It seems it could be, but idk if it is…) But I too like the “punch bowl” rule.

Cisphobia may be best displayed, in its absurdity, by the bug’s meltdown about how she’s not cis, she’s normal. (If you want to google, the bug = C*thy Br*nn*n, vowels removed because she googles herself and has no problem dox’ing trans people, they’re a e a so insert and google if you’re feeling so inclined)

cloudiah
6 years ago

which led Robert Browning 200 years later to believe the word meant a kind of headgear worn by medieval nuns, resulting in a poem which is never anthologised

This is the kind of detail I read this blog for. XD

Gennn
6 years ago

The gender politics spectrum, Ally? Is that like the race politics spectrum? Would you think that giving racists a chance to question the humanity of people of color led to constructive debate? You may indeed mean well, but what you are doing isn’t smart, fair and balanced or edgy, it’s just pandering to the bigots and providing them with one more space in which to lie, practice rape apology and regurgitate evo psyche, anti-feminist crap.

Another THANK YOU from me.

Yeah, I don’t want there to be any places where my very humanity is up for debate. What a terrible fascist I must be.

marinerachel
marinerachel
6 years ago

It’s nice to have feelings validated.

If MRAs were just fucking wrong I’d understand listening to their position (and telling them they’re wrong and why.) They’re not though. They’re misogynists. As much as they are indeed wrong they’re also hateful shits. I’m not going to entertain the thoughts or feelings of people who advocate an entire ethos that is both based on nonsense and deems me less human than themselves. No. I’m every bit as human as they. They do not have a monopoly on decency or competence or intelligence or any of the other things they claim to possess in spades but not women. I should not have to fucking argue the position that I’ as much a person as anyone else.

Kiwi girl
Kiwi girl
6 years ago

I read the entire lot of comments and wow, just wow, at the now-banned troll. I got the impression that zie was using the “argument” of “proving zie’s point” to post longer and longer screeds which amounted to digging a deeper and deeper hole. That’s the logic level of a 3-year-old who uses a “naughty” word, gets told off, and then keeps saying the “naughty” word in order to get attention. It’s a sad day on manboobz when the trolls can be bested by toddlers.

On the idea about letting two sides debate misogyny in comments. This isn’t a good idea, because there are two sides, the “generally* decent human being side” (i.e. not misogynists) and the “women are the devil incarnate” side (i.e. misogynists). In order for a debate to have a positive outcome, one hopes that people will shift from one side to the other. It is *not a good thing* if non-misogynists become misogynists (one possible outcome). It would be *a good thing* if misogynists became non-misogynists, but this is incredibly unlikely to occur in a non/lightly moderated blog where the misogynists are there to troll.

Which leads me to my question: what is the point (i.e. outcome one wishes to achieve) of allowing misogyny “debates” in blogs?

*it is possible for a non-misogynist to be an arsehole in other areas, as we are all aware.

hellkell
hellkell
6 years ago

Which leads me to my question: what is the point (i.e. outcome one wishes to achieve) of allowing misogyny “debates” in blogs?

You get to maintain the carefully crafted illusion that you are somehow enlightened and above it all.

Gen
Gen
6 years ago

You get to maintain the carefully crafted illusion that you are somehow enlightened and above it all.

Plus you get to make it clear that it’s somehow “fair” and “equal” that some people have to defend their humanity and basic rights all the time, so you can support the status quo while all the while making sure you’re looking very “equalitarian”.

Plus, of course, the misogynists just LOVE having yet another place to spew their hatred.

katz
6 years ago

The fact is that having a debate between two positions necessarily confers a degree of legitimacy on both of them. It implies that both are worthy of consideration and that a reasonable person could hold either. And that’s just not always true.

marinerachel
marinerachel
6 years ago

See: anti-vaxxers.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Yes, Ally, feminists should definitely debate misogynist on the subject of whether or not we’re people, and the related subject of which circumstances it’s OK to rape us in. That will be a productive use of our time, and it’s not at all disingenuous of you to frame things that way.

The more I see of you, the more I dislike you. Also, just FYI, you’re not very good at telling jokes, so you should probably leave that to those who have a talent for it.

Is Ally his real name, or is that an attempt at irony? Because if dude thinks he’s an ally to women, he’s kidding himself.

hellkell
hellkell
6 years ago

Is Ally his real name, or is that an attempt at irony?

I wondered that too.

marinerachel
marinerachel
6 years ago

Look, if y’all keep saying those stormfronty folk are gross without referring to specific individuals and providing evidential support, I’mma have to ban you. Race politics spectrum, peeps.

Lady Mondegreen
6 years ago

Echoing what everyone has said about Ally Fogg. It’s impossible to have a rational, coherent or interesting discussion on a thread overrun with MRAs and Slymepitters. They add nothing but noise–potential signal winds up lost in the static.

marinerachel
marinerachel
6 years ago

That’s what I felt like I was reading on Ally’s blog and it skeezed me so bad.

But no, I think Ally’s name is Alisdair/Alistair just like every other male Ally (pronounced Allie) I know.

He is half-right sometimes. That’s why Paul Elam hates him sometimes.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

I just hope that feminism as a movement has learned from the Hugo debacle (and the mess with snowdrop explodes), and people won’t be so willing to embrace any man claiming to be kind of feminist who’s throwing red flags around with gleeful abandon just because, hey, man who claims to be sort of feminist.

marinerachel
marinerachel
6 years ago

Hey, Ally’s given us a hand. He’s explicitly not a feminist. Will tell you so himself.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

Why do so many feminists seem to consider him a feminist ally? I really don’t get it. Just because someone talks about feminism sometimes doesn’t mean they’re necessarily someone we should be supporting.

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

I was so confused at first; I thought everyone was talking about OUR Ally!

RE: sirtooting

Whoop, whoop! Troll in the dungeon! That or lamentably obtuse, but let’s be charitable and pretend you be trolling. That way, you’re just a cocksore, instead of a DENSE cocksore. (Also, I just looked up the word ‘cocksore’ in the dictionary. What a surprise! There was a picture of YOU!)

I suggest you first get some manners, then learn some tolerance.

You realize our tagline is “Misogyny, I mock it,” right? You realize that means we MOCK shit, right? You realize that that means we aren’t tolerant of misogyny, right?

Oh dear. It looks like you ARE a dense cocksore after all. I pity your mother.

RE: weirwoodtreehugger

I’m not on tumblr at all are assertations of “cisphobia” really a common thing there?

It’s tumblr, Jack. The answer to those sort of questions are generally always yes.

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

RE: cassandrakitty

I just hope that feminism as a movement has learned from the Hugo debacle (and the mess with snowdrop explodes)

AAAAAAH SNOWDROP EXPLODES WHYYYYYY

Kiwi girl
Kiwi girl
6 years ago

sirtoot got the boot.

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

Woot! Say toodaloot to sirtoot!

…I’m sorry. (No I’m not.)

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

And then along came Ally, who thought he was a hoot.

(Sadly, he was wrong.)

Kiwi girl
Kiwi girl
6 years ago

Their “facts” were in dispute, which they posted with the subtlety of a combat boot.They were as genuine as a three-bob suit.

kittehserf
6 years ago

The gender politics spectrum, Ally? Is that like the race politics spectrum? Would you think that giving racists a chance to question the humanity of people of color led to constructive debate? You may indeed mean well, but what you are doing isn’t smart, fair and balanced or edgy, it’s just pandering to the bigots and providing them with one more space in which to lie, practice rape apology and regurgitate evo psyche, anti-feminist crap.

Nthing the THANK YOU comments for this.

Oh, so Felisha came back? Funny, that. Her screaming rants about how she should totally be allowed to use p—- were uncommonly like sirtoot’s about t—. What a coincidence.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
6 years ago

BTW, thanks are in order for David’s realization that he needs to actively mod people like sirtooting. Spaces where that kind of pointless wanking is allowed invariably become no fun at all to engage in.

kittehserf
6 years ago

Seconded.

gillyrosebee
6 years ago

Thirded. I appreciate that the host of this particular movable feast is so committed to seeing that the dialog remains interesting and lively by having the punch-bowl-sitters escorted to the curb!

theladyzombie
6 years ago

@Ally

Honestly, what possible “discussion” is there to be had between feminists and MRAs/anti-feminists? The issue(s) was long ago settled when it was decided that human woman are actually people and should have the same rights and privileges as human men.

Out of all the bloggers at FtB, yours is the one I stay away from because I know you give quarter to those who think my rights are up for debate. They’re not. That’s why they’re called rights (thank you, Rachel Maddow). The ‘no such thing as Natural Rights’ discussion aside.

An anti-feminist/MRA doesn’t need to “debate” a feminist(s) in order to have his or her mind changed. The information is already out there and in abundance.

Answer this truthfully: Do you honestly think anything discussed in a comment section would be enough to change the minds of the Paul Elams of the world? ‘Cos I don’t think so.

Fibinachi
6 years ago

sirtoot got the boot.

Heh. That’s funn–

Woot! Say toodaloot to sirtoot!

Hah!

And then along came Ally, who thought he was a hoot.

Wait, are we doing this?

Their “facts” were in dispute, which they posted with the subtlety of a combat boot.They were as genuine as a three-bob suit.

Oh dear. We’re doing this.

… all right.

…. I hope I don’t seem like a brute if I burst in with a mood to be less mute and speak up, re: Sirtoot, whose propositions were easy to refute, his wax standard pregoratives of grammar less astute than a new recruit fresh from boot (camp, that is) – lacking the fact that words permute and lacking the tact to not be a newt, I’m glad he got his last toot and had to scoot because his points were moot, floundering down a route not worthy of salute!

As for Mr. Frog, I must refute your lovely desire to be held beyond dispute, for it does not compute, as the root is the crux of the stuff and this is such, two positions held absolute need not combine to make a thing like a two piece suit, in pursuit of finding truth, commentators often aggregate and present opinions not fool proof, less acute, of ill repute, and letting their voices fester renders any dialogue perhaps not dead but suffering things subacute, vapid wandering word warriors simply come to loot any chance of common ground and just impute that women wanton wreck the world, and all the blame lies with the girls

afore they chatter, boot them down the chute, or else like sirtoot they will pollute and uproot your lovely place of thoughts and talks, they are just there to dilute the conversation into a spectrum where one side is “They want agency, cute!” and the other “Icky women, hirsute, should get the boot”.

Be a better person, not a low hanging ideological fruit

Melissia (@MelissiaKuromoi)

Ally: I’m human. Please encourage your friends to treat me as such, or you are a horrible person. Still a person. Just horrible. And not respectable.

That’s really all there is to say on the subject.

tcwill00
tcwill00
6 years ago

*Beatboxes behind Fib*

katz
6 years ago

Welp. No one’s going to top THAT!