@Melody, I’m confused. Are you in the US? Unless your workplace is government-funded or you’re being required to participate, I’m not sure if there’s a religious freedom violation. IDK how this stuff applies to private citizens.
would it help to think of the exorcism as something done for the psychological comfort of the workers who think there’s a demon?
I know this country is religiously obsessed, but exorcism isn’t really a common event here. I
suspect it’s because the mainstream is Protestant and exorcism is more of a Catholic thing.
Your suggestion is pretty much how I would view the situation. Except I would probably attend, because I majored in religious studies, and how many chances do you get to see an exorcism?
I just worry that it isn’t gonna help.
This is a valid fear. Frankly, I’d also worry that it would just encourage the tendency to see demons in things. But I’m not sure if there’s a polite, non-condescending way to express those worries to your co-workers.
emilygoddess – I wasn’t thinking of exorcism as a common thing, more the possible reaction to people objecting to it. Melody mentioned that the person organising it specifically spoke to zir about it first, and is arranging for it to be done while zie’s not there, so there’s no element of being forced to participate, fortunately.
Interesting, I don’t know if I’d attend or not. Curiosity vs apprehension, I think, since I can’t say I don’t believe in seriously nasty spirits, though I tend to think of them as human douchebags (like trolls in another plane).
Reinforcing the fears, especially if the workers involved didn’t think the exorcism worked, would be the worrying possibility. Totally agree about how easy it would be to sound condescending about this, though. It’d get my hackles up in that situation.
Marie
10 years ago
@kittehs
Heheh it shows you are a true subject of the Furrinati, Marie! You can save the pic to your computer if you like. 🙂
While we are paid by the state we are a private business in the USA. My thing is if there are 3 of us (out of 22) who have voiced concerns about this there are likely more who are upset.
I come from a very religious background and that is why I am uncomfortable with it. I don’t want anything to do with it. I try to avoid religion.
One of my fellow co-workers is concerned that the exorcism will result in more demon (via some quote from the bible about 7 more demon or something or other). The other is upset because she doesn’t think it is appropriate or necessary and she DOES work that day and doesn’t want to be there.
@melody: I have no idea the denomination that is involved with this, but I do know that different denominations have differing views about the appropriateness and/or usefulness of exorcisms. One particular element that concerns me is basically the “project plan” for this exorcism. What requirements had to be met to have one, who decided on the person/people/organisation conducting the exorcism, the outcomes for the exorcism, and what the measures for success are.* Because your company could be on a hiding to nothing if this doesn’t fix whatever issue is there. I have read a little “popular science” about the ability of ultrasonic waves at particular frequencies causing people to get a sensation that a particular place is haunted – so there could be an actual physical explanation for this, irrespective of other considerations. We have some cultural activities here in NZ which are around blessing places to ensure that nothing bad happens in the future, and also undertaking basically cleansing ceremonies where bad things have happened (esp, removing tapu), but some bad shits need to occur before you can get tapu (in this context, there are others) such as the death of someone. And what you describe doesn’t seem to have a cause, per se.
* You’ve already mentioned that others have an issue with this. What is the reason that one person’s request – which does affect everyone around them – is being acceded to without apparent consideration of the wider impact? HR should *know* this.
@Marie: hooray both for your throat and for your eye. Thanks for letting us know what happened.
@Tracy: does N14’s counsellor have any suggestions, as that is the person who has responsibility for trying to get good outcomes for N14? Given that she is seeing a counsellor, to me it makes sense to involve the counsellor in trying to establish practical outcome(s) and then a plan to get to those outcome(s). I’m assuming that N14 has established a rapport with the counsellor and that there has been at least a couple of sessions.
/sigh horrible people in this world remain horrible
@melody, I totally understand your discomfort and I’m sorry if I was minimizing it. I’m glad you have the option of not being there, and I share your concerns about it being kind of inescapable for people who are working that shift. I was operating under the assumption that this would be happening outside of work time; if there’s no such thing as non-work time and other employees lack the ability to opt out, I agree that it’s pretty inappropriate. Maybe your coworkers could be convinced to focus on blessing or warding themselves and (if applicable) their personal work areas, rather than involving the whole group?
There’s also the issue of what happens if someone from a different religion later decides they want their faith to be involved in the workplace. What if a Pagan coworker offered to bless the workplace while they’re at it? Either they get denied, which = discrimination lawsuit, or they get permission, and now everyone and their uncle is doing religious ceremonies in the work areas. And of course, both options risk alienating the nonreligious.
Oh man, that’s awful. I’m so sorry for your niece. If legal proceedings aren’t involved, I guess the best you can do is stay in contact as best you can and emphasize that her mother’s behavior is NOT OKAY. Is there any way BIL can get custody of her?
RE: melody
That is the strangest thing, and I’m sorry it’s going on. You’re well within your rights to be creeped out, especially since it sounds like your coworker kinda sprung this on you without telling you. It’s, uh. Kinda creepy to do something like this and not tell everyone. I mean, I live with pagans who sometimes “clean” things, but they wouldn’t do something like that even at home without telling me first, never mind at WORK.
RE: Kiwi Girl
Thank you! Was there anything in particular you wanted it to go to?
Well, as far as I know at the moment is is just the priest.
I think the issues is management kinda already decided to do this and now my co-workers don’t really feel like they can say no. You know the power dynamic……Anyway, although I voiced some concerns I doubt I’m going to choose to push it. I don’t want to rock the boat and I don’t want to get into a confrontation with my bosses over it.
Kiwi girl
10 years ago
@LBT: the picture thing (?icon ?image, don’t know what to call it) for Ravelry that Kitteh mentioned earlier. 🙂 I just want cat/cats. I find your question hard to answer because I imagined you would actually put it towards “food” or “rent” or … 🙂
@melody: the most appropriate avenue to deal with this is via HR, who should *know* the factors that I outlined in my earlier comment. It’s around “speaking truth to power” and HR is supposed to fill that role in the situation you outlined. If you have a crappy HR person/department, this is where the HR doing its job properly angle falls down, sadly.
Realistically, your employer could be setting themselves up for an ongoing issue. An ongoing positive outcome from the exorcism is not guaranteed. And given that exorcisms have often been performed on people, there is the possibility that your co-worker could decide down track that another co-worker is possessed, rather than an area.
Your bosses will be thinking that the exorcism will solve the problem once and for all (or maybe they have a later exit strategy for that employee if the exorcism doesn’t work). They have no evidence that, in fact, this is what will happen.
Actually, Kittehs already paid for the Ravelry picture, so the money’s kinda floating at the moment! That’s what I meant to ask about, whether you instead wanted to put it towards a certain story or some other thing. But yes, it does indeed go to food and rent on my end. *laughs*
Kiwi girl
10 years ago
@LBT: how about, if you have an idea on the backburner, you put it towards that. Because I honestly don’t care what it contributes to, I just wanted to give you some $$$ towards the commission that I suggested but then Kitteh ninaj’d me on re the finances.
Okay! That sounds fine. I’ll probably push it forward through to my writeathon, then, since one of my friends wants to sponsor a story and doesn’t have enough on her own. Looks like Dona Prudencia will get to quiet those atomic ghosts after all!
Also, Kittehs! I emailed you the roughs! Let me know what you think!
Tracy — I spent my teen years cutting, and still do it sometimes, and have a series of questions —
— does BIL have joint custody? (If not and If he raised N14 and her bio father isn’t in the picture, he should apply for it)
— is the mother allowing N14 to continue seeing a counsellor?
— at the absolute minimum N14 is being neglected, and that’s easily provable by the lack of bed, the rest may be harder to prove though. Would you consider calling whomever is in charge of child welfare wherever you are? (Seriously consider this if she’s cut N14 off from her psych and other outside contact — that’s an iffy position, but for a teen already upset enough to cut? It’s concerning)
Not questions, advice —
— don’t judge her cutting. This is going to sound weird, but treat it as just a thing she does.
— limit your worrying to clearly medical questions and asking about her mental health
— anything akin to “how could you?” or disappointment should not be expressed to her or anyone who might tell her — she has to know she has someone she can truly trust
— don’t try to make her stop, no threats, no bribes, nothing, it’d just make her hide it more
Seriously,mi think you should really consider calling child protective services, N14 is a minor and her welfare is clearly in danger. Generally speaking if the custodial parent is deemed unfit they’ll try to place the child with family — seeing how BIL has access to their kid, he’d probably be a viable candidate.
BIL has had joint custody – but not legally. Bio dad isn’t in the picture at all, N14 doesn’t even know who he is. BIL wants to apply for it, it’s just been a $$ issue, as far as getting legal representation (one of those he makes too much to qualify for aid, not enougn to actually afford a lawyer – we’re working on it)
The mum is allegedly allowing N14 to go forward with counselling (she thinks it’s about school stress… no clue N14’s issues are with her), but we aren’t hopeful this will actually happen.
BIL is considering calling Child Protective Services, though he’s done so before to no avail. They have a tendency to call first before they show up, which gave the mum plenty of time previously to do things like buy food, clean the house, coach the kids, etc. He’s checking what resources may be available to him through his work connections.
Re: cutting – I did it too, so no worries about judgement etc. We had a good talk about why she does it, why I did it at her age, and BIL told her she could call him whenever she feels the urge – whether she will or not who knows, but she knows she can so that’s something. We’re very lucky she’s open with us.
I really appreciate the feedback and advice everyone, thank you 🙂 And the kitty pics!
Every year, people have to hand in an essay on the philosophical considerations on ways to know that knowledge works in relation to being human, in order to graduate from a programme I myself graduated from some time back.
Every year, I get the same sort of questions from the people I know from that particular programme, or people who I have talked to, or my sisters friends who have been told I know about that particular subject.
Every year, its the same conversations. I hate this, I hate that, i don’t know how to, I can’t, why won’t you write this for me, why is it all so fucked up, I hate my life.
I took the exact same course that they took, and I graduated with top marks. I understand I’m perhaps lucky in that I read books or, god forbid, read the class materials, but it still surprises me that after two years (the course is two years) of repeating one very basic point, no one seems to know for a given fact what they’re expected to do when they have to fill out this essay – which boils down to following a set pattern that they have been told, for two years.
I… I just want… for once? FOR ONCE; perhaps, that they follow instructions. It seems to work for math and biology and chemistry and physics and psychology and english and languages in general and economics and everything, but the moment, the very instant someone says “Philosophy”, it’s like brains just switch off. I have found the human sapience killword.
You may be able to detect that I find this entire situation somewhat frustrating, because I have yet not been able to think of a way to remedy it for everyone. There must be something they’re not getting or missing from the instructions they recieve, but what? How? What would make it easier for them to understand what they have to do, when, after two years of instructions, they still don’t understand what they have to do?
Philosophy bootcamp? I got nothing. Examples involving ice cream tend to work for stats, but idk if you can work treats into your examples.
Tracy — ahhhh. As for buying food and such, she gonna buy a mattress and bed? Too bad about the $$, her de facto dad sounds much better than her biological mother.
What would make it easier for them to understand what they have to do, when, after two years of instructions, they still don’t understand what they have to do?
You have to tell them to do what they want to do, when they want to do it. Then they’ll hear what you’re actually saying. Otherwise, everything goes through a filter that triggers whining until a) they finally shut the fuck up and do it, b) somebody gets so sick of hearing them that they do it for them, or c) it’s too late and they fail (which triggers a whole new chorus of whining).
Kiwi girl
10 years ago
@Tracy – does N14 have a phone with a camera that can document what life is really like in the house before the services call around? Domestic violence services may be able to help too – she’s experiencing domestic abuse from her mother so I would assume that fits within their mandate.
We Hunted The Mammoth
@Melody, I’m confused. Are you in the US? Unless your workplace is government-funded or you’re being required to participate, I’m not sure if there’s a religious freedom violation. IDK how this stuff applies to private citizens.
I know this country is religiously obsessed, but exorcism isn’t really a common event here. I
suspect it’s because the mainstream is Protestant and exorcism is more of a Catholic thing.
Your suggestion is pretty much how I would view the situation. Except I would probably attend, because I majored in religious studies, and how many chances do you get to see an exorcism?
This is a valid fear. Frankly, I’d also worry that it would just encourage the tendency to see demons in things. But I’m not sure if there’s a polite, non-condescending way to express those worries to your co-workers.
emilygoddess – I wasn’t thinking of exorcism as a common thing, more the possible reaction to people objecting to it. Melody mentioned that the person organising it specifically spoke to zir about it first, and is arranging for it to be done while zie’s not there, so there’s no element of being forced to participate, fortunately.
Interesting, I don’t know if I’d attend or not. Curiosity vs apprehension, I think, since I can’t say I don’t believe in seriously nasty spirits, though I tend to think of them as human douchebags (like trolls in another plane).
Reinforcing the fears, especially if the workers involved didn’t think the exorcism worked, would be the worrying possibility. Totally agree about how easy it would be to sound condescending about this, though. It’d get my hackles up in that situation.
@kittehs
thanks :3 Maybe I will. XD
While we are paid by the state we are a private business in the USA. My thing is if there are 3 of us (out of 22) who have voiced concerns about this there are likely more who are upset.
I come from a very religious background and that is why I am uncomfortable with it. I don’t want anything to do with it. I try to avoid religion.
One of my fellow co-workers is concerned that the exorcism will result in more demon (via some quote from the bible about 7 more demon or something or other). The other is upset because she doesn’t think it is appropriate or necessary and she DOES work that day and doesn’t want to be there.
Shouldn’t they have at least organised to do it after hours? It doesn’t seem like something that should take place during the day.
Its 24/7 kind of work. Day, Swing and Grave.
Bummer.
Graveyard shift would be appropriate. 😉
@melody: I have no idea the denomination that is involved with this, but I do know that different denominations have differing views about the appropriateness and/or usefulness of exorcisms. One particular element that concerns me is basically the “project plan” for this exorcism. What requirements had to be met to have one, who decided on the person/people/organisation conducting the exorcism, the outcomes for the exorcism, and what the measures for success are.* Because your company could be on a hiding to nothing if this doesn’t fix whatever issue is there. I have read a little “popular science” about the ability of ultrasonic waves at particular frequencies causing people to get a sensation that a particular place is haunted – so there could be an actual physical explanation for this, irrespective of other considerations. We have some cultural activities here in NZ which are around blessing places to ensure that nothing bad happens in the future, and also undertaking basically cleansing ceremonies where bad things have happened (esp, removing tapu), but some bad shits need to occur before you can get tapu (in this context, there are others) such as the death of someone. And what you describe doesn’t seem to have a cause, per se.
* You’ve already mentioned that others have an issue with this. What is the reason that one person’s request – which does affect everyone around them – is being acceded to without apparent consideration of the wider impact? HR should *know* this.
@Marie: hooray both for your throat and for your eye. Thanks for letting us know what happened.
@Tracy: does N14’s counsellor have any suggestions, as that is the person who has responsibility for trying to get good outcomes for N14? Given that she is seeing a counsellor, to me it makes sense to involve the counsellor in trying to establish practical outcome(s) and then a plan to get to those outcome(s). I’m assuming that N14 has established a rapport with the counsellor and that there has been at least a couple of sessions.
/sigh horrible people in this world remain horrible
@LBT: sent you a small contribution via PayPal.
And this is just too cute:
http://lovemeow.com/2014/02/children-read-to-shelter-cats/#HGTxZsKqFw683eJs.01
@melody, I totally understand your discomfort and I’m sorry if I was minimizing it. I’m glad you have the option of not being there, and I share your concerns about it being kind of inescapable for people who are working that shift. I was operating under the assumption that this would be happening outside of work time; if there’s no such thing as non-work time and other employees lack the ability to opt out, I agree that it’s pretty inappropriate. Maybe your coworkers could be convinced to focus on blessing or warding themselves and (if applicable) their personal work areas, rather than involving the whole group?
There’s also the issue of what happens if someone from a different religion later decides they want their faith to be involved in the workplace. What if a Pagan coworker offered to bless the workplace while they’re at it? Either they get denied, which = discrimination lawsuit, or they get permission, and now everyone and their uncle is doing religious ceremonies in the work areas. And of course, both options risk alienating the nonreligious.
RE: Tracy
Oh man, that’s awful. I’m so sorry for your niece. If legal proceedings aren’t involved, I guess the best you can do is stay in contact as best you can and emphasize that her mother’s behavior is NOT OKAY. Is there any way BIL can get custody of her?
RE: melody
That is the strangest thing, and I’m sorry it’s going on. You’re well within your rights to be creeped out, especially since it sounds like your coworker kinda sprung this on you without telling you. It’s, uh. Kinda creepy to do something like this and not tell everyone. I mean, I live with pagans who sometimes “clean” things, but they wouldn’t do something like that even at home without telling me first, never mind at WORK.
RE: Kiwi Girl
Thank you! Was there anything in particular you wanted it to go to?
Well, as far as I know at the moment is is just the priest.
I think the issues is management kinda already decided to do this and now my co-workers don’t really feel like they can say no. You know the power dynamic……Anyway, although I voiced some concerns I doubt I’m going to choose to push it. I don’t want to rock the boat and I don’t want to get into a confrontation with my bosses over it.
@LBT: the picture thing (?icon ?image, don’t know what to call it) for Ravelry that Kitteh mentioned earlier. 🙂 I just want cat/cats. I find your question hard to answer because I imagined you would actually put it towards “food” or “rent” or … 🙂
@melody: the most appropriate avenue to deal with this is via HR, who should *know* the factors that I outlined in my earlier comment. It’s around “speaking truth to power” and HR is supposed to fill that role in the situation you outlined. If you have a crappy HR person/department, this is where the HR doing its job properly angle falls down, sadly.
Realistically, your employer could be setting themselves up for an ongoing issue. An ongoing positive outcome from the exorcism is not guaranteed. And given that exorcisms have often been performed on people, there is the possibility that your co-worker could decide down track that another co-worker is possessed, rather than an area.
Your bosses will be thinking that the exorcism will solve the problem once and for all (or maybe they have a later exit strategy for that employee if the exorcism doesn’t work). They have no evidence that, in fact, this is what will happen.
RE: Kiwi Girl
Actually, Kittehs already paid for the Ravelry picture, so the money’s kinda floating at the moment! That’s what I meant to ask about, whether you instead wanted to put it towards a certain story or some other thing. But yes, it does indeed go to food and rent on my end. *laughs*
@LBT: how about, if you have an idea on the backburner, you put it towards that. Because I honestly don’t care what it contributes to, I just wanted to give you some $$$ towards the commission that I suggested but then Kitteh ninaj’d me on re the finances.
Okay! That sounds fine. I’ll probably push it forward through to my writeathon, then, since one of my friends wants to sponsor a story and doesn’t have enough on her own. Looks like Dona Prudencia will get to quiet those atomic ghosts after all!
Also, Kittehs! I emailed you the roughs! Let me know what you think!
Massive self-injury trigger waning:
Tracy — I spent my teen years cutting, and still do it sometimes, and have a series of questions —
— does BIL have joint custody? (If not and If he raised N14 and her bio father isn’t in the picture, he should apply for it)
— is the mother allowing N14 to continue seeing a counsellor?
— at the absolute minimum N14 is being neglected, and that’s easily provable by the lack of bed, the rest may be harder to prove though. Would you consider calling whomever is in charge of child welfare wherever you are? (Seriously consider this if she’s cut N14 off from her psych and other outside contact — that’s an iffy position, but for a teen already upset enough to cut? It’s concerning)
Not questions, advice —
— don’t judge her cutting. This is going to sound weird, but treat it as just a thing she does.
— limit your worrying to clearly medical questions and asking about her mental health
— anything akin to “how could you?” or disappointment should not be expressed to her or anyone who might tell her — she has to know she has someone she can truly trust
— don’t try to make her stop, no threats, no bribes, nothing, it’d just make her hide it more
Seriously,mi think you should really consider calling child protective services, N14 is a minor and her welfare is clearly in danger. Generally speaking if the custodial parent is deemed unfit they’ll try to place the child with family — seeing how BIL has access to their kid, he’d probably be a viable candidate.
And good luck, to all of you (except her mother!)
BIL has had joint custody – but not legally. Bio dad isn’t in the picture at all, N14 doesn’t even know who he is. BIL wants to apply for it, it’s just been a $$ issue, as far as getting legal representation (one of those he makes too much to qualify for aid, not enougn to actually afford a lawyer – we’re working on it)
The mum is allegedly allowing N14 to go forward with counselling (she thinks it’s about school stress… no clue N14’s issues are with her), but we aren’t hopeful this will actually happen.
BIL is considering calling Child Protective Services, though he’s done so before to no avail. They have a tendency to call first before they show up, which gave the mum plenty of time previously to do things like buy food, clean the house, coach the kids, etc. He’s checking what resources may be available to him through his work connections.
Re: cutting – I did it too, so no worries about judgement etc. We had a good talk about why she does it, why I did it at her age, and BIL told her she could call him whenever she feels the urge – whether she will or not who knows, but she knows she can so that’s something. We’re very lucky she’s open with us.
I really appreciate the feedback and advice everyone, thank you 🙂 And the kitty pics!
I’m looking at recycled tunics on Etsy
SAVE MEEEEEEEEEEEE
Every year, people have to hand in an essay on the philosophical considerations on ways to know that knowledge works in relation to being human, in order to graduate from a programme I myself graduated from some time back.
Every year, I get the same sort of questions from the people I know from that particular programme, or people who I have talked to, or my sisters friends who have been told I know about that particular subject.
Every year, its the same conversations. I hate this, I hate that, i don’t know how to, I can’t, why won’t you write this for me, why is it all so fucked up, I hate my life.
I took the exact same course that they took, and I graduated with top marks. I understand I’m perhaps lucky in that I read books or, god forbid, read the class materials, but it still surprises me that after two years (the course is two years) of repeating one very basic point, no one seems to know for a given fact what they’re expected to do when they have to fill out this essay – which boils down to following a set pattern that they have been told, for two years.
I… I just want… for once? FOR ONCE; perhaps, that they follow instructions. It seems to work for math and biology and chemistry and physics and psychology and english and languages in general and economics and everything, but the moment, the very instant someone says “Philosophy”, it’s like brains just switch off. I have found the human sapience killword.
You may be able to detect that I find this entire situation somewhat frustrating, because I have yet not been able to think of a way to remedy it for everyone. There must be something they’re not getting or missing from the instructions they recieve, but what? How? What would make it easier for them to understand what they have to do, when, after two years of instructions, they still don’t understand what they have to do?
Philosophy bootcamp? I got nothing. Examples involving ice cream tend to work for stats, but idk if you can work treats into your examples.
Tracy — ahhhh. As for buying food and such, she gonna buy a mattress and bed? Too bad about the $$, her de facto dad sounds much better than her biological mother.
Ice cream will do, I can work with ice cream.
You have to tell them to do what they want to do, when they want to do it. Then they’ll hear what you’re actually saying. Otherwise, everything goes through a filter that triggers whining until a) they finally shut the fuck up and do it, b) somebody gets so sick of hearing them that they do it for them, or c) it’s too late and they fail (which triggers a whole new chorus of whining).
@Tracy – does N14 have a phone with a camera that can document what life is really like in the house before the services call around? Domestic violence services may be able to help too – she’s experiencing domestic abuse from her mother so I would assume that fits within their mandate.