So I get periodic visits here from hostile and uninformed visitors demanding to know just what I have against those Men’s Rights activist-adjacent fellows who have declared themselves to be Men Going Their Own Way. Surely, they sniff, I can’t be really opposed to men living the lives they choose to live, independent of women? Don’t feminists encourage women to be similarly independent? You go, girls, and all that?
As a fellow calling himself Praetorian wrote:
Why are women so bitter towards men going their own way, without them
“John,” meanwhile, thought he detected some hypocrisy:
So, if a woman says she does not need a man in her life, she is seen as a strong independent woman. If a man says he does not need a woman in his life, he is seen as someone who has a deep hostility towards and/or profound distrust of women.
How convenient and how logical…………….
Happpily, the commenters here always put these misguided souls straight: we don’t object , in principle, to men “going their own way,” if that’s what they want to do.
But in practice, the men who classify themselves as Men Going Their Own Way don’t go anywhere; they stick around and stink the place up with their raging misogyny.
If you go to MGTOWforums or any other popular MGTOW hangout, you’ll discover that the regulars there don’t spend much time talking about the fabulous lives they’re leading on their own — the things they’re learning, the hobbies they’re pursuing, the experiences they’re having.
Nope. They spend virtually all their time and energy taking about women, and how awful they are. The typical MGTOWer spends more time thinking about women on any given day than the president of Planned Parenthood does. And what they think about women is awful. Just go through my MGTOW posts here for example after example.
You want to see some men who are really going their own way? Watch the video at the top of this post. These are guys enjoying themselves and not giving a shit what anyone thinks. They are AWESOME.
That’s what Men Going Their Own Way should look like. And I’m not even joking.
NOTE: I think I’ve posted this video before. I don’t care. Some people might not have seen it. EVERYONE MUST SEE IT.
Kiwi Girl — yeah I’ve definitely known a number of people who could join MENSA and acted like their morality was inherently superior. Even when it came to, uh, (massive trigger warning for idfk, terrorism?) killing the “sheeple” by poisoning the water supply. Yes seriously, no I don’t talk to him anymore, yes he’s always been creepy.
I feel like this is going to turn into an uroboros of trolls, but is it just me, or is this something trolls say a lot XD
@emilygoddess
eerggh. There’s got to be a name for the facial expression I’m making right now but…wtf?
@kiwi girl
Oh, bleh 🙁 That sounds like a terrible way to grow up. I was raised christian, too, but was never taught that nonbelievers go to hell.
re: being raised christian: I don’t know if it was the church I went to or just my parents, but they always made it sound like only really bad people went to hell, religion or otherwise. (no purgatory how I was raised).
@argenti
Wow, that guy sounds terrible. O_o
@Marie, yeah, that’s why I’m uncomfortable with the whole neo-Atheist crap around religious (focus on fundamentalist Xtians) people all being sheeple and objectively horrible. Because they’re not all like that. One Anglican church near me had a lesbian as their ?minister (not sure of Anglican term). Loads of Anglicans (not all) are progressive. I’ve met all flavour of Catholics. The Methodists I have met seem to be relatively uptight, but very caring people. When my grandfather was in his slow decline, it was his Methodist minister who visited *every single bloody day for years* and people in the church made him meals to supplement his meals-on-wheels provisions. I went up to where he lived to attend his funeral, but didn’t end up going because I was too upset by his passing. And the members of his church that came to the house afterwards, all told me how proud he was of me and how much he loved me – these are not the actions of horrible people. Going to stop now, as a bit emotional typing that.*
I’ve met arseholes who are Xtian, just like I’ve met arseholes who are atheist. I think that arseholes are just arseholes, regardless of their religious beliefs. And they gravitate to socialise with others just like them.
*added this bit last.
This is why, in my family, we refer to Germaine-sodding-Greer as Germaine-sodding-Greer. She was on the BBC reviewing the first Lord of the Rings film and her whole condemnation of it revolved around the film sending the message that it didn’t matter whether you were clever, it matters whether you are loyal, brave and a true friend. Yep, that’s right, she was appalled that people might think qualities you can determine about yourself are more worthy than qualities you were born with, that “stupid” (yep, she used that word) people might be seen as more admirable than clever people.
And now you folks have me worrying – is “sodding” a homophobic slur? Do I need to change to something more imaginative to express my contempt?
@titanblue
Wow, she sounds truly despicable.
re: sodding.
No frickin clue. Not used in US (I think) don’t know what it means, ect.
Re: “sodding”, anal sex isn’t limited to gay men (in fact, I read somewhere that it’s more popular with heterosexual couples).
I’d like to know if sodding’s considered a homophobic slur, too. Sodomite/sodomy was used to refer specifically to homosexual men for a long time, after all.
I <3 this and even Mum laughed at it!
Marie – yeah, Germaine Greer (another reason to be embarrassed to be Australian, sigh) is a horrible piece of work.
I highly doubt we can attribute to an omniscient something or nothing such things as good or evil or hate or love. If any sort of divinity is to exist I would think it would be Tillich’s ground of all being or becoming, or something or nothing more pantheistic like the Tao.
Robert, that’s very much like what I think Louis was getting at when I asked him about it. He was groping for words, I think (this was early in our relationship and he was out of practice using verbal language, let alone English) but he described the Creator as “a consciousness but not a personality”. Took the whole anthropomorphic business out of it for me, something I’d wanted to get away from thinking anyway, and I’ve been quite happy to leave it at that ever since.
That’s one thing I wonder if some of the asshattier atheists don’t get: that one can be “theist” as in believing there is a creator/ground of being/whatever, but not belong to any form of religion and not actually care about theology or the nature of deity or anything else.
My loved ones are alive, I’m in contact with them and eventually I’ll join them permanently instead of doing this frikk’n commuting. That’s all I need.
Kitteh, one of the most beautiful statements or definitions of god that a theist as given me is that to them that god is that which which we move, live and have our being…that god is not the means that we enjoy our lives but god is our lives. God is our being and becoming all in all. God doesn’t rule over the scheme of things but god is the scheme of things.
This person told told me that god is within me as an individual, that god is within me when I am a community and that god is within me when I relate myself to the whole of being.
I think the whole idea is complex, that is why I am now removing myself from the theist/atheist argument.
Beautiful ideas, Robert, thank you for sharing them.
Argenti: Pecunium — I was contesting it because we’re coming at this from different ends — you’re viewing it as, ah, a thought out decision that this Is Right (I think)
Nope, I’m not talking about it as a personal decision, but in response to emilgoddess question about the theological issue of if Christ died for all our sins, what does the rest of it even matter?, and how different sects answer that question.
Robert Ramirez: Kitteh, one of the most beautiful statements or definitions of god that a theist as given me is that to them that god is that which which we move, live and have our being…that god is not the means that we enjoy our lives but god is our lives. God is our being and becoming all in all. God doesn’t rule over the scheme of things but god is the scheme of things.
This is the fundamental concept of the Quaker idea of “holding everyone in The Light”. It’s not actually at odds with Catholic theology; making up a large part of Catholic Mysticism. and there are any number of Catholics (of all the various sects in the Catholic family of Christianity) who believe something like this.
Ah, sorry, I was assuming you were coming at it from your own views. Which are far better thought out than all the baptists I know.
My own views are complex: shaped by my upbringing, my rearing, my education and my experiences. I find the Baptist idea repugnant. I’ve had Baptists look at me as if I were a temptation from the Devil when I answer the question, “Are you saved?” with, “I’d like to think so, but I won’t know until I die”.
Because the verse which sticks in my mind when I hear about, “being saved” is, “faith without works is dead”.
And that sticks in their craw, something fierce. When they get too pushy, in those public attempts to shove John 3:10 down peoples’ throats I bait them. At which point they forget all about forgiving their brother so much as once, must less seventy times seven.
John 3:16, I can still recite it as it was parroted at every chance, particularly before the exodus when the church still had kids and vacation bible school. And to baptists that *is* temptation from the devil to doubt whether they’re saved and thus doubt the lord and stray. Which is just weird in combination with how once you’re saved, you’re saved and nothing can change that. Well, I imagine if pressed they’d say that offering your soul to the devil would, but everyday temptations of the flesh? You’re supposed to maintain strength with the, uh, armor of righteousness(? Romans, idk chapter and verse), but we’re inherently imperfect so jesus won’t forsake you for straying.
But temptation from the devil (eg you) to stray is Bad. Don’t ask me to reconcile that one.
I always took “faith without works is dead” to be a way to separate the real believers from the nonbelievers pretending to believe (I’m phrasing this badly); sort of like if you claim to believe you should help others, but you don’t do so unless there’s something in it for you, well, actions speak louder than words.
My favorite verse is the one about real love being that a man lay down his life for his friends (paraprasing, think it’s in John 1). There was a story about a lesbian couple who saved numerous teenagers from that murderer at the summer camp. I recall thinking their actions fit this so well (they were heroes regardless of whether they are/were theists or atheists or agnostic or other)
I personally like the idea of love being the greatest commandment. I figure I should try to do the best I can with what I have and have empathy for others; kind of a mixing of the golden rule (which is sort of how I tend to view the categorical imperative) & do no harm with a belief in God, Christ & the Spirit. I consider myself to be Christian (of the Curch of Christ [not LDS] variety, which is a very decentralized bunch & different churches can be quite different)
I actually think I became a feminist partly because of my religious beliefs and upbringing. My parents never thought of themselves as feminists, but they raised me to believe God created all people as equals and loves everyone and the least we can do is try to help make our corner of the world a little better for the people in it. They were interested in trying to protect the environment partly because we should take care of what God made
I know this conversation started with a blow up, but I really enjoyed reading about all the various beliefs from theist to atheist the readers here have. It’s been pretty neat to see how other people see things
SMACK MY HEAD!!!
I always enjoy that, once the asshats have flounced.
Certainly but you’ll have to lean in a little closer. I can’t reach from here.
I’m still trying to figure out what the hell that was about.
Trollsplosion.
My general rule is: I don’t care what people believe as long as they’re not arseholes to others, don’t put people’s lives in danger, and don’t interfere with others’ bodily autonomy. I couldn’t care less if people were pastafarians and wore collanders on their heads, because it doesn’t affect anyone else. Also, students in Otago used to wear woollen tea cosys on their heads in winter as these were cheaply got from thrift shops, so as a kiwi I am in a glass house if I go around criticising others’s head gear. Plus, I have a Hello Kitty winter hat myself…
Some of the craftier tea cosies one sees would make awesome hats, too …
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=tea+cosy&num=20&client=firefox-a&hs=kOQ&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=d8D0UuXoBYjTkgWUy4DwBA&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1152&bih=522