Hey, everybody!
So you remember that post a couple of days ago, that one in which I quoted Jason Gregory’s most peculiar dating advice for angry men? You know, the one in which he suggested that men rebuff women who are interested in them with a long and rather nasty assortment of misogynistic insults? You know, like these:
Tell her that she isn’t interesting, that her soul is dog-shit and that she has nothing to offer other than boobs and booty, that she is a piece of shit and a total failure as a human being, that you don’t find her attractive and that she isn’t even good enough to be a cum-bucket.
And he went on like that for several more sentences. You can read the whole quote in my original piece, or in his original post on A Voice for Men.
Well, it turns out I totally misinterpreted Jason Gregory’s post, according to an unbiased and neutral outside observer named Jason Gregory, no relation to the original Jason Gregory, who’s written a post about it on his blog.
Hold on, I’m being told that this second Jason Gregory is in fact also the first Jason Gregory.
Anyway, according to Jason Gregory, even though Jason Gregory did explicitly tell men to “tell her … that her soul is dog-shit” he didn’t really mean to tell men to “tell her … that her soul is dog-shit.”
No, he only hypothetically meant this. He was just trying to suggest was how mean the ladies are when they turn down men.
What he was really trying to express, he now says, was that
men need to learn self-respect and to value their selves in totality—including the importance of valuing their sexuality.
Pretty weird how that came out in the original post as
Tell her that she isn’t interesting, that her soul is dog-shit and that she has nothing to offer other than boobs and booty, that she is a piece of shit and a total failure as a human being, that you don’t find her attractive and that she isn’t even good enough to be a cum-bucket.
But, he insists, his aim was really quite noble. As he explains now, he wasn’t just trying to stand up for the dignity of men — he was trying to protect women from having their inboxes filled with dick-pics.
I wrote that men should stop giving away cock like it’s worthless. Perhaps if men valued their sexuality, they’d be less inclined to inundate women with emails, messages, and pick-up lines. Perhaps if men actually valued their sexuality, the ladies at Jezebel wouldn’t be so inclined to complain about all the free-cock oppression. Perhaps if men actually valued their sexuality, men wouldn’t degrade themselves by harassing, begging, and inundating women with dick pics and pleas for their attention and affection.
Indeed, he went on to argue, it was not he who was the real misogynist, but me. J’Accuse!
This might seem a hard case to make, what with the whole “tell her … her soul is dog-shit” bit and numerous other remarks in his original post, like, for example, his description of women who actually enjoy sex:
You may be able to find a few coked-up girls who really get into it—the kind of girls who end up with sweaty hair, mascara, and cum dripping down their cheeks, but those girls usually have emotional disorders and are simply trying to bury their emotional problems in various sorts of drug induced escapes.
And who can forget his suggestion that men make their dates “pay for a juicy sirloin to replace all the jizzed-out protein” they cause to be jizzed out?
But apparently I am the true misogynist because I ran my post making fun of him during my pledge drive. Which makes me a “misogyny pimp.”
This is where the mocking of misogyny becomes misogyny. He doesn’t care about the women who bother to read his blog. Though he may have a few days in which he invites women and other commenters to share and cry about their troubles, any good pimp knows the importance of faking like he cares. Any good pimp knows how to manipulate the emotions of “his bitches.” …
[H]e doesn’t care about why men are sending dick pics and bombarding women with emails and messages through online dating services. He’s not looking for solutions to these problems. He’s not saying that men who do such things may lack self-respect because the value of male sexuality is often viewed as less-than-worthless in our culture.
Wait, what? I don’t care enough about men who harass women so I’m a misogynist?
Exploiting women is a form of misogyny … In this way, Boobz has more in common with an abusive pimp than he has with any heroic slayer of misogyny. Boobz is the misogyny that he mocks. Boobz is a misogyny-pimp.
QED, I guess. Apparently quoting misogynists, mocking misogynists, discussing misogyny, taking notice of misogyny in any way … makes one a misogynist. At least according to a guy who apparently thinks that the only women who really “get into” sex are “coked-up girls” with “emotional disorders” and “cum dripping down their cheeks.”
You’ll notice that last line in Jason’s quote links to a video; that link is from him. It’s a clip from the film Bad Santa. As Jason makes a point of mentioning several times, that’s where he got the “your soul is dog shit” line.
But if you watch the clip you’ll notice one thing about that line, in its original context in the film — it’s not surrounded by a paragraph full of vile misogynistic abuse. Nope, that stuff is all Jason Gregory.
@SredniVashtar- Yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying. Idk if I wasn’t making myself clear, but then again, my posts here aren’t exactly read charitably.
And I wasn’t just talking about dick pics- the more common manifestation of this sort of insecurity is the generic copy-pasted “what’s up” or “you’re hot”. Dick pics are sometimes the extreme manifestation of this insecurity, usually combined with a level of accumulated bitterness and anger.
(Not that I think that’s the motivation behind every dick pic. Just some of them.)
Am I excusing that behavior? Well no, obviously not, but I don’t feel the need to write a disclaimer to that effect. I’m just pointing out what I see as a certain dynamic at play. How you respond to the existence of that dynamic is your business.
Citation required.
I really don’t want contact from some man with so much “accumulated bitterness and anger” that he sends me, a total stranger, a photograph of his penis, purely because I’m a woman who hasn’t said “ooh yes please come here and fuck me”.
Obviously.
RE: buttboy69
my posts here aren’t exactly read charitably.
I can’t IMAGINE why.
the more common manifestation of this sort of insecurity is the generic copy-pasted “what’s up” or “you’re hot”.
That’s funny, because that’s not what we or James Gregory was talking about. We were talking about anon dick pics. Maybe we aren’t reading you charitably because you’re not communicating well. Step up.
Dick pics are sometimes the extreme manifestation of this insecurity, usually combined with a level of accumulated bitterness and anger.
*plays the world’s tiniest violin for the Mr. Dick Pics of the world*
And, as expected, buttboy isn’t honestly engaging
Am I excusing that behavior?
Yep.
You are making excuses for why they do it, as a means to make it “understandable” and so make them seem less objectionable (after, they are just, “trying to cope with the fear of rejection.”
Married to your fairy-tale about how “the harassment isn’t really that bad” your entire schtick is, “those poor menz, being abused for their inesecurities”.
Straight up apologism, married to a disingenuous lack of respect for your previous statements. Pull the other one, it’s got bells on it.
buttboy: my posts here aren’t exactly read charitably.
Sadly, they are. What they aren’t is being read the way you want them to be read. Instead they are being taken as written, which means you look like a jerk.
kitteh, I’m with you on this one:
It seems like what’s at the bottom of this is the idea that men are entitled to love and sex from lots of beautiful women; and when women reject them, they lash out in anger.
buttboil’s whole schtick is defending misogyny and abusive behaviour by men to women, and he then whines he’s not being read “charitably”.
sparky, exactly.
Notice, too, how buttboil has got it totally arse about face (apt) from Jason Goobery’s original piece? He was all about men abusively rejecting women who are interested in them. Nothing to do with Oh noes poor menz are always rejected except when they aren’t like fartwad here is saying.
Now THAT I can believe.
Wrong again. It’s more like photocopying your naked ass at the office party while drunk…juvenile, stupid, and not something one does in polite company. And certainly not something you do if (a) you want to keep your job, or (b) you’re hoping for a good reference in future.
brain bleach: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152157675253756&set=pcb.10152157677893756&type=1&relevant_count=1
I completely agree sending unsolicited dick pix is completely unacceptable and completely shitty. I just don’t think that happy, well-adjusted people wake up in the morning and say “I’m bored. I think I’ll do something shitty.” Just like I don’t think happy people wake up and say “I think I will be a raging racist or maybe post hostile things on the internet.”
I completely think this behavior needs to be called out as shitty and abusive.
I am simply acknowledging that maybe the people who engage in this behavior see it (and therefore try to justify it) differently than I do.
Maybe it’s just a quirk of mine, but I always want to look for a more complicated reason for bad behavior than “they’re a dirt bag.” Even if the ARE a dirty bag.
Sparky, I think ‘entitled’ is the correct description. The behavior indicates a worldview of ‘I deserve to get what I want, unconditionally’. It is revealing that this part of life is most likely the only one for which they believe this to be true. Otherwise there would be no libertarian MRAs.
Kiwi girl, that pic is SO COOL.
bbeatty – see, the difference for me is, I don’t care if these abusers are unhappy or self-hating or whatever. They’re sexually harassing women, and may go on to do worse for all I know.
Levels of messages, in increasing order by odds of getting a reply:
Dick pics
“You’re hot // similar
“Sup?” // “hey” // similar
“Do you like [thing messages sender likes]?”
“I saw [things] on your profile, do you like // have you seen/read/heard [similar thing]?”
Etc
Note that exactly zero of those involve greater risk of rejection than “no, [thing] is for losers”…except the dick pic, that may get you in real trouble since it’s fucking harassment. Displaying that you actually read their damned profile does not require some soul baring complex message.
Not that this has anything at all to do with rejecting women by insulting them rather than a simple “I’m not interested [sorry]”
Being insecure and/or anxious is not a bloody “get out of jail free” card for being an arsehole. It’s not a defence in court, and it’s not a defence for being an obnoxious jerk. It also insults the vast majority of people who are insecure and anxious (both people who have these emotions from time to time and people who have stronger tendencies here), as they don’t bloody send unwanted dick pics to people. Being insecure and/or anxious is therefore *not* a cause of this behaviour, and *assuming those conditions are more commonly manifest in people who send out unwanted dick pics* (and that is a *huge* assumption), that would still be a correlational rather than causal factor.
Psychiatry and clinical psychology continue to have their failings, but one positive is that there is no DSM condition called “sends unwanted dick pics”. There is also no condition where one of the symptoms (required or optional) is “sends unwanted dick pics”.
Finally, sending out these unwanted pictures has negative consequences for some people who receive them. Therefore it is morally right to call out this behaviour, and to attempt to prevent it occurring. Having idiots like BB try to make excuses for this behaviour is therefore morally repugnant, as making excuses supports the negative behaviour.
Congratulations BB, you’re an enabler of unethical behaviour. You must be so proud of yourself.
buttboil also demonstrated for the umpteenth time that he can’t read for quids. Jason Gregory wasn’t talking about this at all. He was full of misogynist shit, but it was more weird than this bog-standard variety.
all I’m saying is that most men will get consistently rejected no matter what, and it hurts less if it following a spammy and/or crude and/or copy-pasted come-on, because it doesn’t feel like a personal rejection.
Yes, the argument from “women won’t have sex with me even if I treat them almost decently, so I might as well be totally shitty to them instead.” I’ve heard it many times from MRAs. It’s just a weak excuse for being an asshole.
I’ve encountered assholes before, thanks. I don’t care about their special secret asshole pain. There are plenty of non-assholes with real problems for me to worry about instead.
Bingo. I’m often anxious and insecure. Do I send unsolicited shots of MY genitals to random strangers? Nope. If it’s not right for women to do it, men shouldn’t get a free pass either.
RE: bbeaty
I am simply acknowledging that maybe the people who engage in this behavior see it (and therefore try to justify it) differently than I do.
Look, I’m a moral relativist too who runs on a different reality manual from a lot of folks, but just because they see it differently doesn’t make it any less shitty. I thought starving to myself was a totally justifiable thing, but I would be REALLY CONCERNED if folks were like, “Well, I’m sure he sees it differently than I do, so I just think we should acknowledge that maybe in his mind, starving to death is totally okay.” I don’t give a shit about how bad I was feeling, that’s not an appropriate way to cope!
Maybe it’s just a quirk of mine, but I always want to look for a more complicated reason for bad behavior than “they’re a dirt bag.” Even if the ARE a dirty bag.
But looking for a more complicated reason just makes it sound like you’re trying to justify the behavior. Seriously, I’m not giving out asspats or, “Aw, you’re just dealing with suppressed mental trauma” to assholes sending me pictures of their dicks. As someone who DOES have mental issues, who HAS performed bad behavior out of them, I don’t want people accepting or trying to reason away or justify my behavior. I want to be CALLED OUT, so I learn and STOP ACTING LIKE A DICK TO PEOPLE.
Come on. I expect higher standards of my behavior.
How far does this “aww he’s anxious and insecure” excuse run? It’s already being used to explain and, yes, condone, sexual harassment. Are we supposed to feel sorry for the men who escalate to stalking, or rape, as well?
Oh, my bad. We’re always being asked to do that.
Well, I’m pretty sure rapist #2 would’ve tried it, but I took a hard line no contact policy.
@kitteh, I *know*, it’s like we’re asking for those guys to take responsibility for their own behaviour, which they know is inappropriate. Misogyny!
Honestly, as a mentally ill man, I’m kinda offended how LOW people’s expectations are of my behavior. I mean, Jesus Christ. I’ve met DOGS who behave better, and yet somehow I’m apparently so tortured I feel compelled to send anon dick pics to people or some shit.
I don’t want people to “understand” my oh-so-tortured bad boy act. I want people to smack me with a clue-by-four! I’m a grown man, not a toddler!