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MRAs agree: Female humans deadlier, cuter than males

Females: They may LOOK innocent, but SCIENCE knows better!
Females: They may LOOK innocent, but SCIENCE knows better!

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Some important information about females straight from the Men’s Rights subreddit:

Merari01 2 points 3 days ago (6|4)  As with any species, the female is more vicious, ruthless and agressive than the male.      permalink     source     parent     save     give gold     hide child comments  [–]oneiorosgrip 7 points 3 days ago (9|2)  Yes, and female humans have the added advantage of both a physical appearance and a social structure that facilitate female aggression by eclipsing it with the appearance or presumption of harmlessness.

I can vouch for this first-hand. I live with two females, and trust me, they can get away with anything just by giving me a look with those big round eyes of theirs — from scratching up the furniture to pooping outside the box to …

Oh, wait. We’re not talking about kitties?

Oh, female humans.

Anyway, one of the saddest things about this little exchange is that oneiorosgrip is herself a female human. Indeed, she’s actually Hannah Wallen, aka Della Burton, one of A Voice for Men’s so-called Honey Badgers. Yet she’s apparently so alienated from her own gender (and possibly her species) that she refers to her fellow women as “female humans” rather than, you know, women.

Note: Thanks to the AgainstMensRights subreddit for finding this lovely and enlightening exchange.

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shayla
shayla
6 years ago

@ Shayla

“What exactly disqualifies it from being a yes or no question?”

You don’t interview well do you? YES OR NO!?

One more time: What is disqualifying my question from being a yes or no question? What you wrote there doesn’t even attempt to answer.

Sorry but I am not fromafar13, I’m pretty sure but not absolutely certain. Let me check to make sure. Fromafar13, are you eating cake and procrastinating on your small business accounting right now? Yes or no?

fromafar2013
fromafar2013
6 years ago

Oh for fucks sake. Please go read this and then go away.

http://www.sagepub.com/upm-data/27008_4.pdf

“If we compare the
sentences imposed on offenders convicted of the same crimes, with identical
prior criminal records, we will find that women are sentenced no differently
than men.”

swingsalot
swingsalot
6 years ago

@ Shayla
Ah yes. That was a response to fromafar13, not you. My mistake.

shayla
shayla
6 years ago

Oops, of course that should be fromafar2013. Lots of reading comprehension skills today.

fromafar2013
fromafar2013
6 years ago

@ shayla

No??? I am procrastinating though… so Yes??? Can I have some cake? YES OR NO?

(See, that last one WAS a yes or no question.)

shayla
shayla
6 years ago

@fromafar2013

For you, all the cake. (Nice PDF!)

Cerberus
6 years ago

I think he’s trying to set up a “ooh, if men get sentenced longer, then it is proof of bias in the courts for amount of crimes and so women are more violent than men, but get thrown in prison less, because misandry” kind of bullshit.

The irony is that he’s absolutely right… if you were to replace the word men for black people, add the word no before more, replaced women for white people, and racism for misandry. So my guess is that he’s hoping he can misuse one of the common disprovings of racist beliefs about black people being inherently violent because look at all the black people in prison that has been used against his fellow white supremacists because MRAs are too damn lazy to even invent their own bullshit these days and thus resort to stealing other people arguments and shifting the markers where they please.

catgirl
catgirl
6 years ago

Swingsalot doesnt understand what a loaded question is….typical MRA stupidity. I think we should just ignore him until he can figure out what a loaded question is. Which will probably take forever.

vaiyt
6 years ago

“What exactly disqualifies it from being a yes or no question?”

The answer being a lot more complex than just yes or no. The answer “yes”, while technically correct, is incomplete, and it does NOT imply anything about the CAUSE of such gender disparity. Of course, since you’re only after an easy “gotcha”, you’re just going to ASSUME whatever cause is more convenient for you.

I’ll throw your question right back at ya: what makes you assume that the gender disparity is caused by prejudice against men and not by, say, a cultural notion that women lack agency and therefore should be held less responsible for their acts?

Mistaking paternalistic coddling for privilege seems to be an easy mistake to make, but really. If we assume that being “protected” by denial of agency means power, then children are the most powerful people in our society.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
6 years ago

@auggzilliary:

I was reading something that was about gender rather than race in sentencing, but one of the things the author mentioned is that violent crimes typically have less flexibility in terms of what sentences can be passed. It’s mainly “lesser” crimes where sentencing disparities show up the most.

fromafar2013
fromafar2013
6 years ago

From the PDF:

“Allegations of lawlessness in sentencing reflect concerns about both disparity
and discrimination. Although these terms are sometimes used interchangeably, they do not mean the same thing. Disparity is a difference in treatment or outcome that does not necessarily result from intentional bias or prejudice. For example, the fact that very few people over the age of 50 enroll at the typical college or university reflects a disparity but not discrimination.”

Is there disparity? Yes.
Is there discrimination? Sometimes, depending upon the situation, the area of the country, the judge doing the sentencing, any past criminal record, the severity of the crime, and a bazillion other factors.
Does it always favor women over men? No.

swingsalot
swingsalot
6 years ago

@ fromafar13

I took a look at your link and, in the summary on page 166, the piece closes with the final words:

There is compelling evidence of gender disparity in sentencing. Women
are substantially less likely than men to be sentenced to prison, women who
are incarcerated receive significantly shorter prison terms than men, and
women make up less than 2 percent of the death row population. There is also
evidence that these differences, which do not disappear when crime seriousness,
prior criminal record, and other legally relevant factors are taken into
consideration, reflect discrimination in favor of women. There also is evidence
that jurors evaluate cases involving female victims, especially white female
victims, differently from cases involving male victims: They are more likely
to sentence those who kill females to death. Although some judges and
researchers claim there are legitimate reasons for treating women differently
from men and for treating those who victimize females differently from those
who victimize males, these results suggest that gender discrimination in
sentencing is not a thing of the past.

I don’t know where you got your quote from (a reference would help) but this doesn’t seem to conclude what you suggest it concludes.

cloudiah
6 years ago

Ally’s question is irrelevant because VANILLA HEATH BAR CRUNCH is a thing that exists.

Now it’s time for Sir Swings-a-Lot to answer some of our questions:

* Why do you swing?

* How much is a lot?

shayla
shayla
6 years ago

@auggziliary

That info seems really hard to find, there doesn’t seem to be much focus. A few studies from the UK say that Asians in the UK receive higher arrests and harsher punishment than whites so I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s the same in the US.

cloudiah
6 years ago

Do you concede that, in the US, more women than men die during childbirth on average?

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
6 years ago

The source I was reading made an offhand comment that white people generally have “the mildest” sentencing, though again that wasn’t the focus of the paper.

hellkell
hellkell
6 years ago

swingsalot…and misses.

Am I making pea soup for dinner? YES OR NO?

cloudiah
6 years ago

Does hellkell’s pea soup contain a ham hock? YES OR NO?

cloudiah
6 years ago

Also, do you concede that, of the US murderers for whom gender is known, the vast majority are males?

katz
6 years ago

That is a subjective question. My question is not. It’s down to comparing two numbers: Is x greater than y?

But what disqualifies it from being a yes or no question? You’ve already said if it’s a yes or no question then one has to answer it or else one is just stupid and doesn’t know the answer, and you haven’t let anyone else bring up points like whether it is a good question or not.

Now, has someone already gotten into my cupcakes or not? It’s a simple matter of comparing two numbers: The number of cupcakes I made and the number I have now.

cupisnique
6 years ago

This person is just determined to view the world in black and white. Go ahead, it must be a really boring place. Many commenters have already pointed out why it’s not a simple yes/no question, but you refuse to either read or comprehend their arguments. You’re just going to pick out any “fact” you can find to support your position that women are sentenced less “harsh” and that this OBVIOUSLY means that men are punished in our society (not that women are viewed as weaker and less capable human beings). You obivously didn’t read the part about “disparity” vs “discrimination”. Clearly the only way to fix this disparity is to put more women in prison for longer prison sentences regardless of guilt. Your position completely breaks down when you throw in any other factors, anyway, but of course with MRAs it’s really only about white cis-men vs white cis-women.

hellkell
hellkell
6 years ago

cloudiah: no ham hock, but there is bacon.

katz
6 years ago

Yes or no: Is five pieces of French toast at one sitting too many?

Because I feel a little gross now. Salad for dinner, I think.

cupisnique
6 years ago

@ auggz he totally did scroll to the last page.

Diana Adams
Diana Adams
6 years ago

Not all people in jail are there because of violent crimes, in fact the majority of the people in jail in the USA are non-violent offenders. Still the sentences themselves are irrelevant when counting the number of crimes commited, it doesnt matter if you get 1 month or a life sentence for a murder it still counts as 1 murder commited.

cloudiah
6 years ago

@katz, Yes, depending on how long a “sitting” lasts. But salad for dinner fixes everything.

fromafar2013
fromafar2013
6 years ago

Dude, did you read the entire thing or did you just skip to the end?

“The studies also highlight the importance of testing for intersections between gender, race or ethnicity, and other legal and extralegal variables. As these studies reveal, discriminatory treatment of criminal defendants may be restricted primarily to black males, and
preferential treatment may be reserved for white females.”

“The authors concluded that their results “highlight the importance of testing an interactive model that incorporates the effects of both gender and race” on sentencing decisions
(Spohn and Spears 1997:52).”

The paper attempts to control for several factors, including race, socioeconomic background and prior record. Race is the sadly, best predictor of preferential treatment, meaning white upper class women get the least lenient sentencing in all of the studies. It also varies based on the severity of the crime and who the victim is.

“The authors also found that the gender of the victim affected the jury’s decision to impose the death penalty but did not affect the prosecutor’s decision to seek the death penalty after a murder conviction. As the authors note, “It may well be that the sexually degrading
nature of some female victimizations evokes strong sympathy from jury
members” (2007:886).”

Women rarely sexually assault other women, hence, disparity.

Did you also read any of the quotes from the judges in the studies? Sexist much?

“Of course I look at female offenders differently. They get off
easier. I think that the forces that motivate female offenders are
different: lack of self-esteem as opposed to machismo. In a lot of
the cases I see, the woman is more the victim than the offender.
—Male judge in Cook County (Chicago), Illinois”

The final conclusions; the huge disparity narrows when other factors (such as race) are controlled, and the gender discrimination that does occur, is not AGAINST men. Women are treated less harshly because of judges allowing women less agency and having sexist ideas about women’s motivations and capabilities. If is was just discrimination against men, it wouldn’t matter if they killed a white male or a black male, but it does. You understand?

shayla
shayla
6 years ago

Another factor (not sure if it was brought up already, like I mentioned I’m having reading issues today) is that women are disproportionately caretakers; this also would influence a judge’s decision out of lenience not exactly for her gender, but for her dependents’ welfare. In summary, like many others here have said it’s a complicated issue that involves a lot of non-gender-related factors and when gender factors are involved they’re still based on paternalistic biases, expectations, and stereotypes of women — if you’re going to conclude “women have it so much better these days and need to be taken down a peg by god” from this you’re ignoring context so hard it hurts. And if you think feminists are surprised to learn that women aren’t taken as seriously as men in many different ways I just don’t know what to do. I continue to be frustrated by MRAs who notice consequences of the gender roles feminists have been fighting against for ages and blame feminists or women as a whole for them. How many of these judges are feminist women do you think?

swingsalot
swingsalot
6 years ago

Still no answers. Only more attempts to evade the question.
Just what are you so afraid of?

katz
6 years ago

You’re not in a position to criticize people for not answering questions, swingsalot. The ratio of unanswered questions is falling quite heavily on your side.

cupisnique
6 years ago

There’s also this whole section:

Although they acknowledge that men and women differ in many important respects, the advocates of gender neutrality argue that special treatment of women carries significant risks. With respect to sentencing, they assert that using gender-linked criteria, such as family ties, responsibility for the care of young children, or prior victimization, to determine the appropriate sentence validates traditional sex roles and perpetuates negative stereotypes of female weakness and moral inferiority. They also contend that using these factors to reduce sentence severity may have the unintended consequence of increasing sentences for female offenders without these characteristics. In other words, if women with family ties or responsibility for raising young children are deemed more reformable, then women without these characteristics may be viewed as less reformable and more in need of harsh punishment. (I.E. IT’S NOT ALWAYS BENEFICIAL!)

Those on the other side of the argument suggest that cultural and biological differences between male and female offenders may be relevant and legitimate considerations at sentencing (Wolgast 1980). For example, the fact that women are more likely than men to be the sole caretakers of young children may be a relevant consideration for judges who believe that it is important to keep families together and to protect the interests of children. As Myrna Raeder argues, “Any cost benefit analysis would seem to dictate that children be considered in the sentencing decision, particularly when societal costs regarding any future criminality of the children are weighed” (1993:959). According to those in the “special treatment” camp, other potentially legitimate considerations include pregnancy, prior battering or sexual assault victimization, the presence of coercion or abuse by male codefendants, and the offender’s subordinate role in the offense. As Kathleen Daly observes, “Allowing for gender-linked criteria is not the same as assuming that men’s and women’s natures differ. . . . It is to assume that some features of men’s and women’s lives may differ and ought to be acknowledged in sentencing” (1994:270). In other words, if the goal of sentencing is justice and not simply equality, then special treatment of women is justified by virtue of their special circumstances.

Ideally, the consideration of familial ties and paternal responsibilities needs to be applied regardless of gender. The problem is with traditional gender and familial roles, which feminists do not advocate for.

cupisnique
6 years ago

Oh my god, swingsalot get lost. If you aren’t going to address any of the valid points raised here then stfu. You don’t get to demand that we meet your rather narrowly defined goal-posts that have zero to do with gender equality.

shayla
shayla
6 years ago

Still no answers.

I am either a ghost, chopped liver, a unicorn, or some really unsavory combination of the three.

cloudiah
6 years ago

TIL that detailed answers to a question, supported by reason and facts = evading the question, and that the only acceptable answers to any questions are either YES or NO.

In other words, swingset has proven that zie deserves nothing but mockery.

cloudiah
6 years ago

@Shayla, Seriously that combo (perhaps spread on toast?) would leave me even more dyspeptic than 5 pieces of French toast.

shayla
shayla
6 years ago

@cloudiah, Invisibility marmalade, purchase yours today!

katz
6 years ago

I wanted to purchase some but I couldn’t find it at the store 🙁

Sam-I-Was?
Sam-I-Was?
6 years ago

Swingsalot, as others have stated the question that you are posing is not a yes or no question because of the multiple factors involved. You are attempting to take a very complex issue and boil it down and that’s not the way things work in real life.

What is the crime that you are comparing? What is the area of the US that you are getting the statistics from? Are you accounting for any racial differences in the accused? And again you seem to ignore the fact that there are transmen & transwomen. Do you want the statistics to be based on how the accuser is housed in the correctional institute, as typically in the US a transwoman would be housed in a men’s correction institute and a transman would be housed in a women’s correction institute. Are you comparing the sentence that a minority in the area is receiving vs how someone from the majority would be sentenced?

So if you want a yes or no answer from me you will need to narrow down your parameters quite a bit.

tl/dr

Pound salt with your leading question Swingsalot..

hellkell
hellkell
6 years ago

It’s so cute watching swingsalot trying to catch us in some sort of “gotcha” as if his JAQing off has never been seen around here before.

By cute I mean utterly pathetic.

shayla
shayla
6 years ago

Still really confused that even though he got a yes answer and got a lot of other people to spend significant time explaining their positions and talking out their reasoning, he is still not happy? I’m just so baffled. It’s almost as if… he only wanted a fight against the meanie feminists instead of an honest exchange? Who could have predicted this shocking turn of events! Mysteries.

Bina
Bina
6 years ago

Now it’s time for Sir Swings-a-Lot to answer some of our questions:

* Why do you swing?

* How much is a lot?

And more to the point: WHAT do you swing? Because if it’s a sack of bovine feces (as I’m guessing from the smell), I don’t wanna play.

barrakuduh
barrakuduh
6 years ago

Swingsalot, you’re putting a 1 to 2 word limit on acceptable answers to a very weighted question. Do you really need multi-comment explanations to understand why that’s a bad idea?

cloudiah
6 years ago

Expanding answers beyond yes or no while paying attention to complex situations and facts is a misandry.

fromafar2013
fromafar2013
6 years ago

You guys wanna hear something funny? I’m going over to a friend’s house tonight to play Phoenix Wright.

http://aceattorney.wikia.com/wiki/Phoenix_Wright

barrakuduh
barrakuduh
6 years ago

Swingsalot, you’re putting a 1 to 2 word limit on acceptable answers to a very weighted question. Do you really need multi-comment explanations to understand why that’s a bad idea?

Hey, “Do you really need multi-comment explanations to understand why that’s a bad idea?” is a simple yes or no question, too! Yes or no, Swingsalot?

dallasapple
dallasapple
6 years ago

YOUR HONOR!!!!! Instruct the witness to answer the question YES or NO!

dallasapple
dallasapple
6 years ago

I don’t know why this line of “questioning” is reminding me of that guy that got on a public transit train and proceeded to shoot and kill 1/2 dozen at least people and maim and injure at list 12 others …And he refused counsel and insisted on representing himself .Do ya’ll remember that ? Where the “defendant ” was him but he was questioning the witnesses (the ones he shot and or the ones who witnessed him shooting people ) He referred to himself as “the defendant ” when asking questions and the witnesses would say yes ..YOU walked up to me and YOU shot me four times . Then YOU shot the person next to me then YOU walked off. The “defendant” kept asking your honor to consider the witness as “hostile’ and instruct them to quit saying “you .”

kittehserf
6 years ago

Do you deny that men get harsher sentencing for the same crimes?

When a mother and son eventually decide to kill their abuser, and it’s the son who strikes the blow but gets a minimal sentence, while the mother is sentenced to life, then yes, I fucking do deny it.

Heather Osland

Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

Lana — that works on cross exam, but we’d have had to bring it up first.

Swings-a-lot — you made the claim, the burden of proof is on you to prove it, logic 101.

Back in five, I think this one got saved with ALL THE MRA MATH

kittehserf
6 years ago

Oh, and by the way, misogynist: the US is not the world and not all commenters are USians by default, so fuck you for that, as well.