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all about the menz are these guys 12 years old? citation needed entitled babies facepalm hundreds of upvotes irony alert literal nazis men who should not ever be with women ever misogyny MRA narcissism oppressed white men playing the victim racism reddit warren farrell

Men’s Rightsers honor Martin Luther King by talking about how women totally suck at being “warriors of peace.”

Mugshots of Freedom Riders. Click on image for more info, and more pictures.
Mugshots of Freedom Riders arrested for protesting segregation. The Freedom Riders were often attacked by white mobs, with the complicity of the police. Click on image for more info, and more pictures.

On Monday, Martin Luther King Day here in the United States, this was posted in the Men’s Rights subreddit, where, as you can see, it was quite popular with the assembled Men’s Rightsers:

(quote from Warren Farrell) "Men are likely to be not only the warriors of war but also the warriors of peace. Almost all those who risk their lives, are put in jail, or are killed for peace are men." Happy MLK Day!!

How wrong  is this? Let me count the ways.

1) It’s wrong because Men’s Rights “Activists” aren’t “warriors for peace,” or justice, or even for their own backwards notions of men’s rights. MRAs, like a lot of men insecure about their own worth, love to claim credit for the accomplishments of great men in the past (without accepting any responsibility for the terrible deeds of the terrible men who lived before them).

But even in terms of claiming credit where no credit is due this is especially ridiculous. Aside from a tiny handful of “fathers rights activists,” who’ve bizarrely chosen to try to advance their cause by vandalizing paintings and/or dressing up in superhero costumes and climbing up buildings, and one troubled man who killed himself in hopes that his death would spur other MRAs to acts of terrorism directed at courthouses and police stations, MRAs don’t risk anything with their “activism,” insofar as they engage in anything that can be called activism at all.

There’s nothing heroic, or risky, about posting anonymous rants online about how women are all a bunch of hypergamous bitches, or sending some vague threat to the feminist villain of the day.

Indeed, MRAs face so little risk that some are forced to invent stories of persecution — like John Hembling’s tall tale of being confronted by a mob of boxcutter-wielding feminists, thoroughly discredited by The Daily Beast — in order to cast themselves in the role of the persecuted victim-turned-hero.

2) It’s wrong because the person posting this message, and attempting to suggest some sort of link between the civil rights movement of Martin Luther King and the Men’s Rights movement today, is someone who also posts in the White Rights subreddit, a haven for the same sort of hateful white supremacists who hurled racial epithets — not to mention actual rocks and bottles — at King when he was alive.

When one Redditor pointed this out, and noted (correctly) that numerous white nationalists post in the Men’s Rights subreddit, they were quickly downvoted for their troubles.

The original poster explained that he only posted in White Rights about “real cases of white discrimination.”

Another poster offered an example of what he saw as one such case of “real” anti-white discrimination:
MrArtless 3 points 4 hours ago (5|2)  How about after George Zimmerman, many Black people physically assaulted White people and cited the verdict as their reasoning? Those Caucasians were discriminated against because of their skin color.
Yeah, that was totally a real thing.

3) It’s wrong because it’s wrong. As in, factually incorrect. Warren Farrell is talking out of his ass, again. Here’s a slightly longer version of his quote, which you can find on his web page. (It’s originally from The Myth of Male Power.)

Men are likely to be not only the warriors of war but also the warriors of peace. Almost all those who risk their lives, are put in jail, or are killed for peace are men. While some of the peace warriors—Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King, Gandhi, Dag Hammarskjold—are remembered, most are forgotten. Remember Norm Morrison?

Well, no, Warren, I don’t remember Norm Morrison. But I think you’re forgetting a few people too. Like half of the human race.

Women have been involved in peace and social justice movements as long as women have been active in the public sphere. Ever hear of Women Strike for Peace? Code Pink? At every large demonstration I’ve been at that has involved civil disobedience, I’ve seen both men and women arrested, with some of the women old enough to be grandmothers or great-grandmothers. The idea that women don’t put themselves on the line for peace or social justice is patently false.

This is really kind of  basic stuff. But with MRAs, alas, you always need to go back to the basics.

But the post in the Men’s Rights subreddit was all about co-opting the civil rights movement, so today I thought I would remind anyone who might have forgotten — or who never knew — that it wasn’t just men who put themselves at risk in the struggle for civil rights.

You can click on the pictures for more information.

Protesters at a lunch counter sit-in at Woolworths in Little Rock, Arkansas, 1963, under assault from a white mob. The protesters were beaten, kicked, and burned with cigarettes. The assault lasted three hours, while police stood by.
Protesters at a lunch counter sit-in at Woolworths in Jackson, Mississippi, 1963, under assault from a white mob. The protesters were beaten, kicked, and burned with cigarettes. The assault lasted three hours, while police stood by.
Freedom Riders, after their bus was attacked and set aflame by a white supremacist mob near Anniston, Alabama, 1961
Freedom Riders, after their bus was attacked and set aflame by a white supremacist mob near Anniston, Alabama, 1961
Student civil rights protesters blasted with water hose by authorities, Birmingham, Alabama, 1963
Student civil rights protesters blasted with water hose by authorities, Birmingham, Alabama, 1963
Fire Hose 60s Civil Rights
Birmingham, 1963
Elizabeth Eckford, who volunteered to be one of the first black students to enter the formerly all-white Central High School in Little Rock, Arkansas, on the first day of school in 1957
Elizabeth Eckford, who volunteered to be one of the first black students to enter the formerly all-white Central High School in Little Rock, Arkansas, on the first day of school in 1957
Student arrested for trying to read a book in a "white only" library in Albany, Georgia, 1963.
Student arrested for trying to read a book in a “white only” library in Albany, Georgia, 1963.
Police arrest NAACP member Ruth Tinsley for protesting outside a Richmond, Virginia, department store, 1960
Police arrest NAACP member Ruth Tinsley for protesting outside a Richmond, Virginia, department store, 1960
Rosa Parks, being fingerprinted after refusing to give up her bus seat to a white man, Montgomery, Alabama, 1955. I assume even Warrenn Farrell has heard of her.
Rosa Parks, being fingerprinted after refusing to give up her bus seat to a white man, Montgomery, Alabama, 1955. I hope that Warren Farrell has at the very least heard of her.
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Robert
Robert
7 years ago

When I look at my life now (married with kids, how radical), I realize that the social justice activism I did in my late teens and twenties was so worth it. Coming out in high school in 1978 was a bit risky, for example, but for many of my schoolmates I was the first out gay person they ever knew. The sea change in this country regarding how LGBT& people are viewed has had a lot to do with people being willing to risk coming out and speaking up. Now, at 52, I’m living the life I wanted to have.

CriticalDragon1177 (@CriticalDragon1)

David Futrelle

So once again Warren Farrell instead of doing anything to promote the rights of men, insults women. Wow, he has shown himself to be such a “civil rights” icon.

titianblue
titianblue
7 years ago

I don’t think I could do what I’m currently doing as a volunteer without having people like you folks to hang out and play wack-a-troll with.

Ally S
7 years ago

I appreciate your intentions, Charlie, but one thing to bear in mind is that we’re a pretty diverse commentariat, and that naturally means that we have all our own life circumstances that may hinder our ability to engage in activism.

For instance, I’m very passionate about my anarchist views. One of my dreams is to start an anarchist collective devoted to empowering and supporting fellow trans people, especially trans youth. But at this point at my life I’m very young (19), in the process of escaping from abusive elders, and in the process of gaining the resources I need to finally transition. On top of that I’m trying to deal with my self-hatred and my mental illnesses in a constructive, positive fashion and completely solidify my own political views so that I have a clear vision of what I need to do.

Because of all of these barriers, it is difficult for me to even gather resources with my friends to start the collective I speak of. Until that’s possible, my dreams will remain dreams. And that’s unacceptable to me because I firmly believe that anarchy isn’t some absurd utopian ideal but rather a just and feasibly maintained mode of society.

Of course, not everyone is an anarchist like me – I’m sure even the majority of the people I’m most fond of here disagree with my anarchist views. I’m just providing an example to point out that helpful recommendations for activism can’t simply be reduced to certain time allocations. We all have our own life circumstances and they prevent us from achieving what we really want. Again, your perspective is valuable and important to bear in mind, but it certainly isn’t the only perspective.

Sam
Sam
7 years ago

Farrell did not make a false statement. The images you present are anecdotal and how much their lives were at risk is debatable (the vast majority of civil rights activists who were killed were men if not all).

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
7 years ago

I think kitt33 has a secret feminine side to him by calling us all cupcakes. Hmmm. Interesting.

Wut.

Delurking to mention the Ploughshares Four, a group whose story would probably have been made into a movie had it involved cool young men, rather than ordinary-looking middle-aged British women.

Basically, they snuck onto an airbase at night and destroyed a multi-million dollar jet which was to be exported to the Suharto regime then running Indonesia. They waited there to be arrested in the morning and, after a long trial, were acquitted on the ground that they were acting to prevent a worse crime: genocide against the people of East Timor.

I went to Google for more info, because they sound badass, and now I’m confused. I found a group of five who are British and dismantled a plane, and a group of four Aussies more recently who disrupted communications with soldiers in Afghanistan. Is one of those the story you’re talking about? Both groups are made of awesome.

something I keep noticing about the MRAs: they dunno much about history. Whenever they go forth blathering about history, society, or the meaning of something, misinformation, mistakes, and outright fiction will quickly dominate whatever message they set out to convey.

They’re definitely adherents of the “if I haven’t heard of it, it doesn’t exist” school of thought.

try to spend a minimum of one hour actually fighting injustice for every five you spend talking, writing or reading about it.

Thanks for assuming we don’t (lurk moar, etc). And now, since you know better than all of us, care to explain (1) how you arrived at that particular ratio, and (2) which actions do or don’t count as “real” activism? Your credentials for telling us what to do would also b e welcome.

sparky
sparky
7 years ago

Farrell did not make a false statement. The images you present are anecdotal and how much their lives were at risk is debatable (the vast majority of civil rights activists who were killed were men if not all).

1: Citation?
2. You don’t think women in the Civil Rights movement didn’t face the same abuse and danger that their male counterparts did? Are you sure?
3. Las Mariposas were killed.

freemage
freemage
7 years ago

Sam: Thirding the demand for citations, yes. And you’ll need to cite formal academic reports that detail:

1: Fatalities among protesters and activists, by gender
2: Other abuse to protesters (assaults, blacklisting, and oh, yes, douchenozzle supremor, rapes), again broken down by gender
3: The method used in gathering this information, and other standard methods for establishing the legitimacy of the study.

Please note: Your ass is not a viable source for these claims.

kiki
kiki
7 years ago

The images you present are anecdotal

This is the funniest thing I’ve read all day.

“Your honour, I have a photograph here of the actual moment at which the accused plunged the knife into the victim’s chest.”

“I’m sorry counsellor, that image is anecdotal.”

dallasapple
dallasapple
7 years ago

“I’m sorry counsellor, that image is anecdotal.”

Right verses his evidence which a “fact” because he said so .

JoJo
JoJo
7 years ago

Peaceful kittehs are all well and good, but what about dancing parrots?

angharad
angharad
7 years ago

Women were also a significant force within Solidarity, the political movement that ended Communist rule in Poland (and via the domino effect brought down the Iron Curtain). See here for example.

Diana Adams
Diana Adams
7 years ago

For the misogynistic mindset women simply don’t exist outside the home so they can’t possibly be social activist and they can’t possibly drive any meaningful social change. Yet at the same time those same misogynists claim that feminism is so powerful that has “conqured” the entire western world and is also spreading in other parts of the world.
How do they deal with this obvious contradiction? As usual they invent one zillion conspiracy theories to rationalize it.

Women have taken and continue to take part in lots of social movements and social issues, women in general are highly socially active, but like it usually happens they many times don’t get the credit for it from misogynists.

Kiwi girl
Kiwi girl
7 years ago

My suggestion is simply that, as a minimum, every 5 hours of online action be matched with 1 hour of rolling up sleeves and volunteering, campaigning or otherwise taking direct action.

Financially contributing is also important – it enables NGOs to continue their direct actions. Not all of us have the time, transport options, or personalities (e.g. being happy cold calling door-to-door, marching in crowds) that are conducive to taking direct action.

In some cases, e.g. bullying in the workplace, direct action is local action – it can be letting the bully know that their behaviour is not okay, or seeing how the recipient (I -hate- the word “victim”) is feeling, or giving feedback on work policies around bullying and similar practices.

I agree I am making an assumption, which is that far more time is spent on online discussion of Social Justice / Progressive issues than is spent on working to improve these issues. That assumption is based on the amount of online vs offline action I see

Yes you made a huge assumption twice. And you don’t see what the commentators here do offline. What you see -other people do- is not relevant.

House Mouse Queen
7 years ago

For one second I actually thought an HB10 was a pencil type. Silly me. I’ve got to put my tin-foil MRA hat back on.

Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

Ah my favorite assumption, that one has to engage in offline activism to be an activist or any sort of -ist. Does that apply to those of us who turn into dysfunctionally anxious messes around people?

It bugs me, that line of conversation always comes off as saying you aren’t a Real Activist(tm) unless you are able to engage in offline activism.

opheliamonarch
7 years ago

Wow Charlie, it takes a whole heap of privilege to be that condescending and egotistical.

30 years? Wow, you must feel super. Well done you.

Is there a prize for the longest serving ‘real world’ SJW? I mean, I did 15 years before I got poorly, but perhaps it doesn’t count now I don’t do my 1/5?

Or is social justice work measured on some sort of scale? For instance, if you helped save dolphins and I cared for the terminally ill do I get more points than you?

And if I helped people with Autism lead a more fulfilling life, would that trump you if perhaps you were part of the occupy movement?

I mean if that is the case and as I did care for the terminally ill and people with many types of disability, perhaps my 15 years is worth more than your 30. And whilst we’re doing this ‘I’m better than you exercise’ perhaps I’d get extra points because of my disability.

If so, my SJW prize should totally be a golden armchair.

Kiwi girl
Kiwi girl
7 years ago

@Ophelia I’m thinking a Game of Thrones type golden armchair. Instead of swords it would have kitties leaping away from the chair, with their paws outstretched. This is where I wish I was an artist and could do you a conceptual picture. However, I can knit and crochet, so I could do you a warm, snuggly cover to wrap over yourself for when you sit in the chair. I would also stretch to buying you a cushion, because I imagine sitting on the damn thing would be quite uncomfortable without some padding.

katz
7 years ago

For one second I actually thought an HB10 was a pencil type. Silly me. I’ve got to put my tin-foil MRA hat back on.

I think that every damn time.

Ally S
7 years ago

For one second I actually thought an HB10 was a pencil type.

You’re not mistaken. Straight male anti-feminists tend to prefer women who wear pencil skirts.

CassandraSays
7 years ago

Concern trolling is the most boring kind of trolling.

Robert Ramirez
7 years ago

Charlie, have you ever thought that the everyday battles that most people here have to go through might count as actually being activist?

Most people here have had to fight sexism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism and a host of other bullshit that comes down the pike, social injustice is just not some abstraction to them…it is very real because they are on the other end of the stick.

And they have done this everyday of their lives. These people are the real life activist. They deal with real life situations in their workplace, within their families and social circles, they are not fighting windmills.

kittehserf
7 years ago

For one second I actually thought an HB10 was a pencil type. Silly me. I’ve got to put my tin-foil MRA hat back on.

I think that every damn time.

Reminds me of the Hamlet pencil – 2B or not 2B. (Don’t blame me, that was a Spike Milligan joke.)

kittehserf
7 years ago

Oh, and Charlie? I don’t have disabilities but I do live in a remote ‘burb and spend five hours a day just commuting. My time at Manboobz mostly happens at work. I have neither time nor energy out of my eleven, twelve hour days to do volunteer work for any cause, nor do I drive, so getting places takes even more hours. So, y’know, fuck you and your condescension and privilege.

kittehserf
7 years ago

::applauds Robert R::

Alice Sanguinaria
7 years ago

Someone is seriously asking me to provide statistics disproving the claim that the vast majority, if not all, of the people risking their lives for civil rights were men.

I don’t…. I don’t even.

Kiwi girl
Kiwi girl
7 years ago

@Alice: tell them that since they are making the claim, the onus is on *them* to provide the statistics to back up their claim. Otherwise, it’s just assertion.

Also “risking their lives for civil rights” – what’s the operational definition of that phrase? There may be some bias against people who were more likely to be run out of town, or have their services ignored (e.g. shopkeepers, tailors, laundry people) so that they effectively ran the risk of starvation. Both groups should be considered as “risking their lives” but some people may be running with the definition of “on the battlefield”. If the latter, then the stats are stacked against women who were *prevented* from taking part, and it would be a damn stupid argument – it would be like arguing that humans were the ones who were the vast majority, if not all, of the beings who risked their lives in WWII. What were the damn penguins doing?

🙂

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

Charlie’s off to a hell of a start. Any more assumptions you’d like to share with the class, Charlie?

Jason
Jason
7 years ago

David, I think you were being unfair to Farrell by posting only a fragment of a quote there. Norm Morrison, as Farrell went on to say in the very next sentence, set himself on fire to protest the Vietnam War. It’s one thing to go to a protest, speak out, and even be arrested for speaking out against war. It’s another thing entirely to immolate yourself. In the same paragraph, Farrell also cites the example of a man who died laying on railroad tracks trying to stop trains that supplied bombs to the military. The point being made there was that, although both men and women can stand up for political causes, men are far more likely to sacrifice their lives – just as they are to sacrifice their lives in war.

Also, on a similar topic, you might enjoy this video by TyphonBlue: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoRphmGrtn8

opheliamonarch
7 years ago

I’m thinking a Game of Thrones type golden armchair. Instead of swords it would have kitties leaping away from the chair, with their paws outstretched. This is where I wish I was an artist and could do you a conceptual picture. However, I can knit and crochet, so I could do you a warm, snuggly cover to wrap over yourself for when you sit in the chair. I would also stretch to buying you a cushion, because I imagine sitting on the damn thing would be quite uncomfortable without some padding.

Game of Thrones? Leaping kitties? That is AWESOME! You’re right though, it would be a bit hard on the old bum.

And now I’m thinking a golden KNITTED throne, I mean I’ve heard tell of a golden fleece.

I think you’ve identified a gap in the knitting market. Get thee to Ravelry and design me that throne, I wants it, I wants it NOW!

Although, looking at that last sentence and all those capital letters, it’s clear that the very notion of a knitted throne has made me dizzy with power.

opheliamonarch
7 years ago

Crap, that last comment was to @Kiwi girl. On the upside blockquote monster was out of luck. 🙂

Bina
Bina
7 years ago

Everyone knows you’re not a REAL activist if you don’t die in the process. That said, what the fuck is Farrell’s excuse? Shouldn’t he be dead too, if all these dead men are so much more important than women who lived to protest another day?

(/sarcasm, for those who need tags)

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
7 years ago

I think that every time he asks for money he should post a pic of himself eating nothing but (cheap, packaged) ramen, to prove that he’s as dedicated to the cause as he expects his supporters to be.

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
7 years ago

you might enjoy this video by TyphonBlue

You don’t come here often, do you?

Robert
Robert
7 years ago

Even assuming the many-worlds model of quantum physics, enjoying a TyphonBlue video is hard for me to imagine. Maybe if it were MSTed (MST3K reference).

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
7 years ago

“Enjoy” and “video by TyphonBlue” seem like mutually exclusive concepts. Even her voice is irritating.

Samantha Vimes
7 years ago

I’m sure someone has already said this but… Gandhi based his methods, including hunger striking, on the work of the Suffragettes.

Kiwi girl
Kiwi girl
7 years ago

@ophelia, that would be an *awesome* throne. If someone could do a pattern, I could make it my project for the next 5 years (all my other projects are much smaller, and hidden in wardrobes). But actually, I would be totally into knitting one. Oh, and someone else has to do any fancy arigurumi/applique bits because I’m not good at the 3D shaping on those. A talent, like sewing, that has passed me by.

Ally S
7 years ago

I don’t mean to sound too contrarian here, but I’m really, really not a fan of Ghandi. He supported the apartheid in South Africa and slept nude next to his own nieces as a way to test his ability to resist sexual temptation. There are plenty of activists who aren’t awful human beings and are much better than Ghandi.

Kiwi girl
Kiwi girl
7 years ago

@Ally, I read that bit about Ghandi sleeping next to naked women, but wasn’t aware it was (I assume younger) relatives. That’s even more icky.

I’m never exactly sure why some people do this to themselves: put temptation right there, to challenge their resistance to it. It’s such a bad idea. And if it’s not that tempting anyway, it’s not a true test of resistance, like if I was to give up gambling, drinking, meat, and smoking “for Lent”.

Speaking of which… having American hot dog with soy sausages for tea tonight. With spicy mustard as normal mustard here is a little bland. Even what they call “American mustard” – and because I don’t think I ever had mustard the times I have been to the US and Canada, I wouldn’t be able to tell its authenticity. However, I do prefer ketchup to tomato sauce now – I’m ruined as a true Kiwi for life (along with my not liking cricket).

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
7 years ago

Samantha Vimes: yet another user with a name I wish I’d thought of.

Bina
Bina
7 years ago

Enjoy Typhon Blue!

Sounds like something off one of those billboards I love to ignore. Drink Coca-Cola! Burma Shave!

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
7 years ago

In this case it’s more like “enjoy dysentry!””.

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
7 years ago

MRAs who wank about male soldiers dying in wars while completely ignoring the rape and murder of female civilians can go fuck themselves.

cupisnique
7 years ago

I’m not sure why they want brownie points for committing suicide? I suppose it’s better than killing other people, but I mean I would think more peaceful means of protest would be better. But, leave it up to the MRA to glorify violence in any form especially when perpetrated by a man.

@ Kiwi we do simply call it mustard here, I assume you mean the bright yellow stuff. It is pretty bleh. Have you tried honey mustard though? It’s pretty fantastic.

Kiwi girl
Kiwi girl
7 years ago

Why don’t MRAs complain about the class/race system that meant that the bulk of people dying in 19th century wars fought by western countries were in lower socioeconomic groups, and non-white? Male + privileged you were better off, unless you were a pilot. And that’s the reason that pilots and navigators are officer ranks in the Air Force, because of the class of males who were in those roles.

Kiwi girl
Kiwi girl
7 years ago

@cupisnique, these were the “American” mustards in the supermarket: http://www.countdown.co.nz/search-results?pagesearch_query=american+mustard We also have honey mustard and various others over here too, including English variations, and I also think honey mustard is particularly nice. I got a bit stuck on the best mustard to use with hot dogs.

Dinner was very nice.

kittehserf
7 years ago

Cor, I’m glad you’re volunteering to knit the golden throne, Kiwi Girl. My first reaction to the idea was “Don’t look at me!” 😛

Kiwi girl
Kiwi girl
7 years ago

@kitteh, yeah but someone else has to create the pattern. 🙂

@auggziliary: although MRA’s wouldn’t understand the mathematics of a zero sum game, to them it’s a throw-away statement. The only game theory any of them seem to be interested in is PUA crap.

Kiwi girl
Kiwi girl
7 years ago

I LOL’d at this, and no the game does not exist: