This blog gets a lot of drive-by commenters, usually hostile, who drop one comment and then vanish, never to return. A lot of these comments are insults and one-liners, but a good number of these one-shot numbers, apparently seeking to maximize the impact of their one bit of input on this blog, deposit mini-manifestos setting forth their grand visions of what Men’s Rights stands for, why feminism is evil, or whatever it is that has them most riled up that day.
The most recent of these manifesto-droppers was a self-described Man Going His Own Way called Disgruntled, who set forth at some length his own rather punitive version of gender equality. It’s a rather revealing document, so I thought I would share it with you all.
Disgruntled started off by declaring that
I … demand increased equality among the 2 main genders and whatever additional gender-types have entered the fray
But his vision of equality is a rather blinkered one, to say the least. He singles out three areas in which men fare worse than women, and demands not that the suffering of men be alleviated — but that the suffering of women be ratcheted up to meet that of men’s.
He starts off with a reasonable enough request, one that is in fact supported by most feminists:
One demand I have is that females in the USA be required by law, as males are, to sign up for the military draft and to be subject to a draft if enacted.
Indeed, when Selective Service registration was reinstated in 1981, the National Organization for Women sued to include women. And given that women can now officially serve in combat in the armed forces, it seems likely that women will be included in registration as a matter of course.
Not that this is really much of a live issue, since the draft itself is dead and isn’t going to be resurrected in the forseeable future.
But Disgruntled’s next demand shows what his real agenda is:
To achieve parity I want the vast majority of draftees to be females until a general equality is attained with the numbers of dead and maimed males from past wars. To ease the determination I would start with World War 1.
That’s right: Disgruntled is calling for a government-sponsored lady-killing operation, one which would mean the death of hundreds of thousands of women, because women weren’t dying in combat during a period when they weren’t allowed to serve in combat.
Indeed, during World War I, when Disgruntled begins his program, they weren’t allowed to vote.
He’s not the only MRA to feel this way; A Voice for Men has advanced a similarly punitive, if less drastic, “solution” to gender inequality in the armed forces.
I should note that the period that Disgruntled is trying to make up for, the twentieth century and early twenty-first, was a century of mass carnage. The United States managed to escape the worst of that carnage; while we were involved in numerous wars and other military operations, no wars were fought on US soil.
This may have given Americans — and American MRAs in particular — a rather skewed vision of what war is. The vast majority of American casualties in twentieth (and twenty-first) century wars have been military personnel — that is, they’ve been overwhelmingly male.
But in fact, in most wars, civilians (male and female, adults and children) make up roughly half of all casualties, some dying as a direct result of military actions and some as the result of disease and famine. In World War II, last century’s bloodiest war, possibly as many as 2/3 of the total casualties were civilian. Men don’t have a monopoly on suffering in wartime.
After a brief mention of criminal sentencing disparities, Disgruntled moves on to another topic that is a favorite of MRAs:
Another life aspect is the woeful number of males maimed or dying performing the tasks that keep the USA operating on a daily basis. As a society we must do all we can to get females employed in those high-risk jobs that traditionally have high injury/death rates.
Again: the solution is for more women to die!
Interestingly enough, though MRAs talk about “getting” women into these professions all the time, the women who have tried to enter professions like coal mining have faced massive resistance, not from feminists trying to protect them from dangerous “male” jobs but from management — and the men in these jobs themselves. Women coal miners not only face the dangers of the job, but open hostility and sexual harassment from their male co-workers as well.
Now, a real men’s movement — one interested in actually helping men and not just in attacking women or gleefully imagining them getting their comeuppance by dying in war or in a mine collapse — would look at the reports of (mostly) men dying in accidents on the job and would, you know, ACTUALLY TRY TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT UNSAFE WORKING CONDITIONS.
It seems weird to have to point out that generally speaking real activists try to do something about the issues they care about, but in all my reading of the manosphere over the last few years I have not once seen any MRA actually attempt to examine why there are so many workplace deaths, much less ask what can be done about it.
Sure, MRAs complain about workplace deaths all the time, but simply as “proof” that men are the “disposible sex” and that women are a bunch of spoiled brats. Or, like Disgruntled, they use it as an excuse for elaborate fantasies of what Michael Kimmel calls “restorative, retaliatory” violence.
Do you want to know why there are so many workplace deaths?
Maybe it’s because companies that put workers at risk with serious violations of safety regulations get only a slap on the wrist from OSHA? The typical OSHA fine for a serious violation is $1700. Even if someone dies as a result of this violation, the maximum fine is only $7000.
Maybe it’s because so many employers put temporary workers in dangerous situations with inadequate training?
Maybe it’s because so many employers don’t give a shit about immigrant workers? As one recent report on preventable death in the workplace (from which I cribbed the above points) notes:
While the overall U.S. fatality rates for workers have gradually decreased over time (though they are still too high), the fatality rate for immigrant workers has increased at an alarming rate.
When you start looking into the details, you discover that workplace deaths happen for some pretty predictable reasons: companies try to cut costs by cutting corners, and regulators (deeply intwined with the industries they regulate) look the other way. And so workers — particularly more vulnerable workers like immigrants, temp workers, and young workers — pay the price, sometimes literally with their lives.
It’s a labor issue. A class issue. A race issue. And insofar as it’s a gender issue, it’s not feminists or “cultural misandry” that is to blame, but rather a patriarchal narrative that suggests that macho men don’t need to worry about following the rules (even if those rules are designed to protect your life), that stoic men shouldn’t complain about rough conditions at work.
How do you organize to fight this? You don’t yell about the “death professions” on the internet. You don’t fantasize about how great it would be if more women died in coal mines. You actually research the issue rather than reciting MRA slogans. You contact the people who are already working on the issue — mostly labor activists — and ask how to help.
And that’s the problem here. MRAs don’t want to help. They want to rage against women.
And so comfortable middle-class MRAs, whose jobs are as about as dangerous as the lives of my (indoor) cats, appropriate the real suffering of vulnerable poor and working-class men as an excuse to yell at women online and fantasize about their deaths — all while doing precisely zilch to help the men they claim to care so much about.
Hell of a civil rights movement you’ve got there.
Ewww, what a thought.
I think he’s legit. His arguments have that rarified echo-chamber feel of someone who’s spent a lot of time talking to opinionated, not very bright people who never, ever interact with the people they hate. Same sort of environment that leads to people saying “Atheism is a religion!”
Lol. The pathetic struggle to dismiss the equality dilemma. Not a single attempt to point out any of the supposed flaws in the reasoning. Just “you stupid” type of responses.
Don’t you miserable losers see that you’re just confirming everything I say about you? Ah, guess that doesn’t matter as long as the feeeelings are accommodated. Doesn’t feel good? Must be wrong, stupid, misogynist etc.
Truth? Logic? Just cry “stupid” and all is well in femitown.
Oh, and I’m afraid I’ve got more bad news for you bunch of fascists: The equality dilemma isn’t the only thing that’s gonna spoil your little delusion that you want justice. Here’s another:
Men and women aren’t equal. Neither physically nor behaviorally. If you’re insane enough to deny the physiological differences, then there’s no hope for you and if you want to say “sure there are physical differences but no psychological ones”, then here’s your bad news: You can’t separate physiology from psychology. Your mind, your “personality” and your emotions are all part of your physical self. I know some of you must LOATHE that to no end.
I’m sure, your utter dread of that possibility being true is still keeping you from believing it so here comes the harsh reality you must try to paint over:
1) Men and women have very different hormone levels.
2) Hormones strongly influence psychology, behavior and the choices people make.
Conclusion: Men and women, alone for physiological reasons will also make different choices in life and behave differently. Therefore, unequal outcomes on a societal scale, are inevitable even when everything else is the same and all sexism and discrimination is removed.
Don’t blame me. I didn’t make it that way. I’m just the one informing you of it. But since you fascist assholes don’t mind hindering women’s empowerment to further your fanatic ideology, I don’t really mind spoiling your day with the truth.
Try not to break your keyboards when bringing on the rage now. Better disguise your anger behind smug sounding insults.
kitt, you’re not saying a thing that a zillion dumbass trolls before you haven’t said.
Kitt, equal doesn’t mean identical. All men aren’t identical. All women aren’t identical. Everything you wrote was based on the definitions being the same. Therefor, everything you wrote was stupid and wrong.
Troll trots out same old, same old idiocy that boils down to “might is right” and then is surprised when they’re called stupid.
Whodathunk?
I am not getting kitt’s arguments…could someone please interpret them for me?
You presented an argument. Some of us responded with arguments of our own. The disingenuousness is strong in this one.
Nah, you can’t pull that card I’m afraid. Even if one assumes that physiology and psychology are inseparable, one can still argue that the psychological sex differences are negligible at best.
No one is arguing otherwise.
Of course hormones can engender certain psychological and behavioral traits. The only important question is whether those traits vastly differ between sexes. You clearly have no understanding of the scientific discourse concerning sex differences beyond “SCIENCE THEREFORE FEMINISM IS BULLSHIT.”
I would rather be honest and abrasive than be a smug and disingenuous dipshit like you.
Tell you what, how about we try removing all sexism and discrimination and see how things turn out. Got to be worth a shot, right?
Well, to be fair, you really are stupid (and trolling), so…
Is kitt making the already disproven “a woman’s ovaries prevent her from being logical argument”? That would be absolutely medieval thinking.
Wow kitt, it takes someone truly devoted to their cause to ignore the forest for the trees. **slow golf clap** Well done, well done.
I’m not sure what you were trying to accomplish but well done.
As a trans girl, I find these biologist arguments for sex differences very amusing. They always conveniently ignore the fact that we (or any trans/queer group for that matter) exist.
Again, a Brave Hero counts coup, no doubt then to rush back to the He-Man Woman Haters’ tree fort and brag to the other gender outlaws. “Ooh, I totally showed ’em! Pass the Cheetos.”
So to recap, because I so like recaps. kitt posts dribble, some posters list why her post is incorrect, Her recap is No one tried to dispute me so I win!!!11!! eleventy!!!!
As for your offer, yes I think I shall enjoy my wank this evening. Does anyone have some popcorn to share until I retire? I promise to wash my hands before sharing 🙂
Another the yawn-inducing troll fantasizes that everyone is thunderstruck and outraged by their amazing truth bombs.
“Spirits travelled home instantaneously after death and the man’s companion was going to live so it would take him longer”
Yes, we’re trying to bring about the rapture so we can all go to Heaven. Come now, Lord Jesus! :p
“Like, um penis. Yeah. Penis. That’s the universal refutation of logical reasoning.”
To be fair, this is my brother’s usual way to end a random conversation. The result is usually: penis! Vagina! Anus! [random fact, ie kangaroos have an extra set of nipples] continue with random facts until one of us runs out of them or gets annoyed and gives up
Neither of us pretends this is anything more than a way to piss off our mother though.
Female koalas have two vaginas.
I rarely get a chance to through that out there.
*I rarely get a chance to throw that out there.
…says the troll who then goes on to do that very thing.
Twitt, you’re such a great projector, you should work for Cineplex Odeon.
Gosh, there are *gender* differences in brain anatomy, not simply *sex* differences: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/girl-brain-boy-brain/
And cultural norms influence cognitive similarities/differences between males and females: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/brain-myths/201207/two-myths-and-three-facts-about-the-differences-in-men-and-womens-brains
I am really tired of the old biology is destiny BS that MRAs trot out. And it’s so easily countered by Science! But then, MRAs have never shown any ability to comprehend science. Instead we get the echolalia of pop culture memes.
@ kiwi girl
“Delusions of Gender” by Dr. Fine
http://www.amazon.com/Delusions-Gender-Society-Neurosexism-Difference-ebook/dp/B003YJEXL6
I loved this book, btw. It’s on Kindle for less than $10. Just saying.
Wow, I wasn’t expecting the cover art just from copy/pasting the link!
Delusions of Gender is one of the best books on feminist science I have ever read. Anyone who hasn’t read it really should consider reading it. It’s a valuable book cover-to-cover. And the author quotes a famous trans woman, Jan Morris, in one of the beginning chapters. ^_^