This blog gets a lot of drive-by commenters, usually hostile, who drop one comment and then vanish, never to return. A lot of these comments are insults and one-liners, but a good number of these one-shot numbers, apparently seeking to maximize the impact of their one bit of input on this blog, deposit mini-manifestos setting forth their grand visions of what Men’s Rights stands for, why feminism is evil, or whatever it is that has them most riled up that day.
The most recent of these manifesto-droppers was a self-described Man Going His Own Way called Disgruntled, who set forth at some length his own rather punitive version of gender equality. It’s a rather revealing document, so I thought I would share it with you all.
Disgruntled started off by declaring that
I … demand increased equality among the 2 main genders and whatever additional gender-types have entered the fray
But his vision of equality is a rather blinkered one, to say the least. He singles out three areas in which men fare worse than women, and demands not that the suffering of men be alleviated — but that the suffering of women be ratcheted up to meet that of men’s.
He starts off with a reasonable enough request, one that is in fact supported by most feminists:
One demand I have is that females in the USA be required by law, as males are, to sign up for the military draft and to be subject to a draft if enacted.
Indeed, when Selective Service registration was reinstated in 1981, the National Organization for Women sued to include women. And given that women can now officially serve in combat in the armed forces, it seems likely that women will be included in registration as a matter of course.
Not that this is really much of a live issue, since the draft itself is dead and isn’t going to be resurrected in the forseeable future.
But Disgruntled’s next demand shows what his real agenda is:
To achieve parity I want the vast majority of draftees to be females until a general equality is attained with the numbers of dead and maimed males from past wars. To ease the determination I would start with World War 1.
That’s right: Disgruntled is calling for a government-sponsored lady-killing operation, one which would mean the death of hundreds of thousands of women, because women weren’t dying in combat during a period when they weren’t allowed to serve in combat.
Indeed, during World War I, when Disgruntled begins his program, they weren’t allowed to vote.
He’s not the only MRA to feel this way; A Voice for Men has advanced a similarly punitive, if less drastic, “solution” to gender inequality in the armed forces.
I should note that the period that Disgruntled is trying to make up for, the twentieth century and early twenty-first, was a century of mass carnage. The United States managed to escape the worst of that carnage; while we were involved in numerous wars and other military operations, no wars were fought on US soil.
This may have given Americans — and American MRAs in particular — a rather skewed vision of what war is. The vast majority of American casualties in twentieth (and twenty-first) century wars have been military personnel — that is, they’ve been overwhelmingly male.
But in fact, in most wars, civilians (male and female, adults and children) make up roughly half of all casualties, some dying as a direct result of military actions and some as the result of disease and famine. In World War II, last century’s bloodiest war, possibly as many as 2/3 of the total casualties were civilian. Men don’t have a monopoly on suffering in wartime.
After a brief mention of criminal sentencing disparities, Disgruntled moves on to another topic that is a favorite of MRAs:
Another life aspect is the woeful number of males maimed or dying performing the tasks that keep the USA operating on a daily basis. As a society we must do all we can to get females employed in those high-risk jobs that traditionally have high injury/death rates.
Again: the solution is for more women to die!
Interestingly enough, though MRAs talk about “getting” women into these professions all the time, the women who have tried to enter professions like coal mining have faced massive resistance, not from feminists trying to protect them from dangerous “male” jobs but from management — and the men in these jobs themselves. Women coal miners not only face the dangers of the job, but open hostility and sexual harassment from their male co-workers as well.
Now, a real men’s movement — one interested in actually helping men and not just in attacking women or gleefully imagining them getting their comeuppance by dying in war or in a mine collapse — would look at the reports of (mostly) men dying in accidents on the job and would, you know, ACTUALLY TRY TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT UNSAFE WORKING CONDITIONS.
It seems weird to have to point out that generally speaking real activists try to do something about the issues they care about, but in all my reading of the manosphere over the last few years I have not once seen any MRA actually attempt to examine why there are so many workplace deaths, much less ask what can be done about it.
Sure, MRAs complain about workplace deaths all the time, but simply as “proof” that men are the “disposible sex” and that women are a bunch of spoiled brats. Or, like Disgruntled, they use it as an excuse for elaborate fantasies of what Michael Kimmel calls “restorative, retaliatory” violence.
Do you want to know why there are so many workplace deaths?
Maybe it’s because companies that put workers at risk with serious violations of safety regulations get only a slap on the wrist from OSHA? The typical OSHA fine for a serious violation is $1700. Even if someone dies as a result of this violation, the maximum fine is only $7000.
Maybe it’s because so many employers put temporary workers in dangerous situations with inadequate training?
Maybe it’s because so many employers don’t give a shit about immigrant workers? As one recent report on preventable death in the workplace (from which I cribbed the above points) notes:
While the overall U.S. fatality rates for workers have gradually decreased over time (though they are still too high), the fatality rate for immigrant workers has increased at an alarming rate.
When you start looking into the details, you discover that workplace deaths happen for some pretty predictable reasons: companies try to cut costs by cutting corners, and regulators (deeply intwined with the industries they regulate) look the other way. And so workers — particularly more vulnerable workers like immigrants, temp workers, and young workers — pay the price, sometimes literally with their lives.
It’s a labor issue. A class issue. A race issue. And insofar as it’s a gender issue, it’s not feminists or “cultural misandry” that is to blame, but rather a patriarchal narrative that suggests that macho men don’t need to worry about following the rules (even if those rules are designed to protect your life), that stoic men shouldn’t complain about rough conditions at work.
How do you organize to fight this? You don’t yell about the “death professions” on the internet. You don’t fantasize about how great it would be if more women died in coal mines. You actually research the issue rather than reciting MRA slogans. You contact the people who are already working on the issue — mostly labor activists — and ask how to help.
And that’s the problem here. MRAs don’t want to help. They want to rage against women.
And so comfortable middle-class MRAs, whose jobs are as about as dangerous as the lives of my (indoor) cats, appropriate the real suffering of vulnerable poor and working-class men as an excuse to yell at women online and fantasize about their deaths — all while doing precisely zilch to help the men they claim to care so much about.
Hell of a civil rights movement you’ve got there.
Also about women in the military, what about all the women who performed vital support roles as camp followers? Cooking, cleaning, tending the wounded etc. Most countries throughout history mostly used male soldiers, but few if any didn’t have women in their armed forces doing important stuff, and I’m sure plenty of them were killed if their side lost or the enemy outflanked them or something.
And of course in more recent times plenty of vital work in factories was done by women, and they have been considered legitimate targets for bombers during the world wars.
“Real socialists (like feminists) want to equalize up. MRAs want to bring everybody down.”
Oh, ye’ll tak’ the high road, and I’ll tak’ the low road,
And I’ll get to Scotland afore ye;
But me and my true love will never meet again
On the bonnie, bonnie banks o’ Loch Lomond.
You do know the narrator in that song is going to be hanged, don’t you?
Kittehserf said:
“You do know the narrator in that song is going to be hanged, don’t you?”
Yep, that was the meaning of “the low road”. Spirits travelled home instantaneously after death and the man’s companion was going to live so it would take him longer. A sad, sad song.
kittehserf and Seranvali:
Never would have guessed. But now I know!
This is why British women were given the vote in 1918 – it wasn’t because of suffragette agitation (although this helped give the issue a high profile), it was because the government could no longer pretend that women didn’t have a vital role to play in defending the country.
And with this indisputably being the case, it was clearly unconscionable to continue to deny them the vote – although, in a typical British fudge, between 1918 and 1928 there were severe restrictions placed on which women could vote.
It’s the inescapable result of willful ignorance. There’s a theorem in logic that notes that if you have a false premise, you can literally prove anything. (The classic form of this is to use “2 = 3” to prove that I’m the Queen of England.) Since the MRM is based on not one, but several faulty premises, any attempt to build on them using logic just leads to more faulty conclusions. Garbage in, garbage out.
In fairness, when women get into power, they’re often just as prone to warmongering as men (Hey, Maggie Thatcher’s ghost!). Women are even capable of ordering wartime atrocities like systemic rape, given the opportunity to do so (there was a case involving an African government official who ordered homosexual rape as part of an ethnic-based campaign of violence; the idea was to bring shame to the enemy; many of the victims killed themselves).
This is, essentially, a function of power in a world where militarization is a common road to prestige. So the fact that men have started most of the wars is pretty much only the fault of hte patriarchical systems that made sure that men were the most common leaders.
A little early for Robby Burns Day, isn’t it? Ah well…
O wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!
It wad frae mony a blunder free us,
An’ foolish notion:
What airs in dress an’ gait wad lea’e us,
An’ ev’n devotion!
You might want to tone down your airs a bit, Mejas.
Not the best version, but it needs the music to be properly haunting
http://youtu.be/AJh9GnmGlg4
And the full lyrics
Oh I am come to the low Countrie,
Ochon, Ochon, Ochrie!
Without a penny in my purse,
To buy a meal to me.
It was na sae in the Highland hills,
Ochon, Ochon, Ochrie!
Nae woman in the Country wide,
Sae happy was as me.
For then I had a score o’kye,
Ochon, Ochon, Ochrie!
Feeding on you hill sae high,
And giving milk to me.
And there I had three score o’yowes,
Ochon, Ochon, Ochrie!
Skipping on yon bonie knowes,
And casting woo’ to me.
I was the happiest of a’ the Clan,
Sair, sair, may I repine;
For Donald was the brawest man,
And Donald he was mine.
Till Charlie Stewart cam at last,
Sae far to set us free;
My Donald’s arm was wanted then,
For Scotland and for me.
Their waefu’ fate what need I tell,
Right to the wrang did yield;
My Donald and his Country fell,
Upon Culloden field.
Oh I am come to the low Countrie,
Ochon, Ochon, Ochrie!
Nae woman in the warld wide,
Sae wretched now as me.
And to anyone who wants to get in on Robert Burns Day — http://www.robertburns.org
Well if he wants to kill people to promote equality, that would make him a feminist.
Because, you know, if you’re for equality then you’re a feminist. And so is somebody who would just kill everyone to ensure total equality.
Ah, but you’ll hate this but that doesn’t make it false. So long as you define feminism alone by the striving for equality without any other requirements, you have to own all the crazys who have their own special way of accomplishing it. A female death quota is logically consistent with the definition of feminism and no amount of denial can change that.
Oh, sorry, did I spoil another wanking session? Oops. Please, do continue.
Drugs are bad, man.
kitt, you certainly have a obsession with this wanking business…is there something you are not telling us?
If he’s typing with one hand and about 10% of his attention that would explain the incoherent babble.
I literally can’t find a single phrase that could be addressed in any way. The only possible response to any part of any of kitt’s messages is “That isn’t true. That isn’t real. None of this is actual stuff.”
What are the odds that some of those “responses” addressed the dilemma I pointed out? Wait. Let me guess (since I can’t be bothered to read them and find out for sure – oh no it’s contagious), ZEEEERROOOO
One more time:
If the definition of a feminist is simply somebody who wants equality, then somebody who wants to kill everyone to make them equal, is inevitably also a feminist.
You can’t get around that no matter how try. Oh, wait. Sorry, I forgot. Logic is patriarchal oppression so it’s bad or something and because misogyny ‘n stuff. Like, um penis. Yeah. Penis. That’s the universal refutation of logical reasoning.
Oh boy. All this talk about penises. Better go find myself one…. Catch ya later.
No one with a brain is this stupid, no.
Ah, so you want to play a little semantics game. Let’s use a relevant dictionary definition for egalitarianism:
If you kill everyone for the sake of “equality,” you’re not creating equality among people because the people, well, are no longer alive.
Oops.
I refuse to spend my MLK day arguing with an idiot. It is just not going to happen.
Well kitt33 that’s an interesting point although not in the least bit true. At the risk of losing my feminist card I will let you in on a secret. Feminists don’t want to make history equal they want the future to be equal. I don’t expect to have men who were paid more in the past give me money. We don’t really want to force men to lose the right to vote or kill men to equal the number of women who died in childbirth. We don’t expect to enslave men to make up for treatment of women in the past. See, those comments before were sarcasm and mockery of what the MRAs and MGTOW post online.
It’s a hard to pull your head out of your own ass so I’ll give this time to sink in. And in the future do try harder to be coherent if you’re going to try to run for the troll of the year. The classic I’m right and you’re wrong is so 2012 without citing a source. Give me a source that shows feminists (not just one but feminists as a whole) want men dead and we’ll talk.
Now run along, the grown ups are talking *pats kitt33’s head*
Yeah the goal is equality for the future, we aren’t asking men to lose the rights to vote or be married off to women as property.
That’s fucking amazing.
That’s *amazing*
I mean… wow.
You don’t know very much about logic, logical consistency, coherency or constructing a comparison, do you?
Wow.
If the definition of an idiot is someone who can’t frame an argument to save their life, then MRAs are inevitably idiots.
And since I have yet to see one who could frame an argument worth considering, let alone one that didn’t resort to kill-everyone crap like this, I have to conclude that MRAs are not only idiots, they’re MURDEROUS idiots.
I hope twitt33 is a lolz troll, because if anyone really is that stupid … wow.
Oh, I think our troll means every word of it…and is projecting whatever the fuck is going on in that weird-ass skull of theirs.