This blog gets a lot of drive-by commenters, usually hostile, who drop one comment and then vanish, never to return. A lot of these comments are insults and one-liners, but a good number of these one-shot numbers, apparently seeking to maximize the impact of their one bit of input on this blog, deposit mini-manifestos setting forth their grand visions of what Men’s Rights stands for, why feminism is evil, or whatever it is that has them most riled up that day.
The most recent of these manifesto-droppers was a self-described Man Going His Own Way called Disgruntled, who set forth at some length his own rather punitive version of gender equality. It’s a rather revealing document, so I thought I would share it with you all.
Disgruntled started off by declaring that
I … demand increased equality among the 2 main genders and whatever additional gender-types have entered the fray
But his vision of equality is a rather blinkered one, to say the least. He singles out three areas in which men fare worse than women, and demands not that the suffering of men be alleviated — but that the suffering of women be ratcheted up to meet that of men’s.
He starts off with a reasonable enough request, one that is in fact supported by most feminists:
One demand I have is that females in the USA be required by law, as males are, to sign up for the military draft and to be subject to a draft if enacted.
Indeed, when Selective Service registration was reinstated in 1981, the National Organization for Women sued to include women. And given that women can now officially serve in combat in the armed forces, it seems likely that women will be included in registration as a matter of course.
Not that this is really much of a live issue, since the draft itself is dead and isn’t going to be resurrected in the forseeable future.
But Disgruntled’s next demand shows what his real agenda is:
To achieve parity I want the vast majority of draftees to be females until a general equality is attained with the numbers of dead and maimed males from past wars. To ease the determination I would start with World War 1.
That’s right: Disgruntled is calling for a government-sponsored lady-killing operation, one which would mean the death of hundreds of thousands of women, because women weren’t dying in combat during a period when they weren’t allowed to serve in combat.
Indeed, during World War I, when Disgruntled begins his program, they weren’t allowed to vote.
He’s not the only MRA to feel this way; A Voice for Men has advanced a similarly punitive, if less drastic, “solution” to gender inequality in the armed forces.
I should note that the period that Disgruntled is trying to make up for, the twentieth century and early twenty-first, was a century of mass carnage. The United States managed to escape the worst of that carnage; while we were involved in numerous wars and other military operations, no wars were fought on US soil.
This may have given Americans — and American MRAs in particular — a rather skewed vision of what war is. The vast majority of American casualties in twentieth (and twenty-first) century wars have been military personnel — that is, they’ve been overwhelmingly male.
But in fact, in most wars, civilians (male and female, adults and children) make up roughly half of all casualties, some dying as a direct result of military actions and some as the result of disease and famine. In World War II, last century’s bloodiest war, possibly as many as 2/3 of the total casualties were civilian. Men don’t have a monopoly on suffering in wartime.
After a brief mention of criminal sentencing disparities, Disgruntled moves on to another topic that is a favorite of MRAs:
Another life aspect is the woeful number of males maimed or dying performing the tasks that keep the USA operating on a daily basis. As a society we must do all we can to get females employed in those high-risk jobs that traditionally have high injury/death rates.
Again: the solution is for more women to die!
Interestingly enough, though MRAs talk about “getting” women into these professions all the time, the women who have tried to enter professions like coal mining have faced massive resistance, not from feminists trying to protect them from dangerous “male” jobs but from management — and the men in these jobs themselves. Women coal miners not only face the dangers of the job, but open hostility and sexual harassment from their male co-workers as well.
Now, a real men’s movement — one interested in actually helping men and not just in attacking women or gleefully imagining them getting their comeuppance by dying in war or in a mine collapse — would look at the reports of (mostly) men dying in accidents on the job and would, you know, ACTUALLY TRY TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT UNSAFE WORKING CONDITIONS.
It seems weird to have to point out that generally speaking real activists try to do something about the issues they care about, but in all my reading of the manosphere over the last few years I have not once seen any MRA actually attempt to examine why there are so many workplace deaths, much less ask what can be done about it.
Sure, MRAs complain about workplace deaths all the time, but simply as “proof” that men are the “disposible sex” and that women are a bunch of spoiled brats. Or, like Disgruntled, they use it as an excuse for elaborate fantasies of what Michael Kimmel calls “restorative, retaliatory” violence.
Do you want to know why there are so many workplace deaths?
Maybe it’s because companies that put workers at risk with serious violations of safety regulations get only a slap on the wrist from OSHA? The typical OSHA fine for a serious violation is $1700. Even if someone dies as a result of this violation, the maximum fine is only $7000.
Maybe it’s because so many employers put temporary workers in dangerous situations with inadequate training?
Maybe it’s because so many employers don’t give a shit about immigrant workers? As one recent report on preventable death in the workplace (from which I cribbed the above points) notes:
While the overall U.S. fatality rates for workers have gradually decreased over time (though they are still too high), the fatality rate for immigrant workers has increased at an alarming rate.
When you start looking into the details, you discover that workplace deaths happen for some pretty predictable reasons: companies try to cut costs by cutting corners, and regulators (deeply intwined with the industries they regulate) look the other way. And so workers — particularly more vulnerable workers like immigrants, temp workers, and young workers — pay the price, sometimes literally with their lives.
It’s a labor issue. A class issue. A race issue. And insofar as it’s a gender issue, it’s not feminists or “cultural misandry” that is to blame, but rather a patriarchal narrative that suggests that macho men don’t need to worry about following the rules (even if those rules are designed to protect your life), that stoic men shouldn’t complain about rough conditions at work.
How do you organize to fight this? You don’t yell about the “death professions” on the internet. You don’t fantasize about how great it would be if more women died in coal mines. You actually research the issue rather than reciting MRA slogans. You contact the people who are already working on the issue — mostly labor activists — and ask how to help.
And that’s the problem here. MRAs don’t want to help. They want to rage against women.
And so comfortable middle-class MRAs, whose jobs are as about as dangerous as the lives of my (indoor) cats, appropriate the real suffering of vulnerable poor and working-class men as an excuse to yell at women online and fantasize about their deaths — all while doing precisely zilch to help the men they claim to care so much about.
Hell of a civil rights movement you’ve got there.
And coincidentally, where capitalism is also taken to its logical (or rather, ILLOGICAL) extreme.
But yeah. Let’s just go ahead and blame all those workplace deaths on women, and demand female blood sacrifice in propitiation. After all, men have to go out and hunt the mastodon for them.
Someone really needs to tell these guys mastodon and mammoth are extinct …
I’ll consider his proposition just as soon as as many men die in childbirth as women have in all of history.
ps: “consider” used only as a rhetorical device. I’m still gonna mock his ass
Hey, anyone have a link to the comments from “a class of sociology students” that katz mentioned the other day? I was trying to find it, and couldn’t.
Also, did I already post this here? I honestly can’t remember.
Several times in following MRA issues I’ve seen the comment about how more men die in wars – and as you point out the focus is often on troops, not overall. But I’d add something else.
What was the gender of the people who started the wars? It seems that it’s always men.
In turn, in looking at deadly professions, who are the people who own the businesses and (don’t) enforce the regulations? I will also guess they are men.
Or in short, MRAs seem to forget that men harm and kill other men.
This, I suspect, is why many MRA’s have authoritarian streaks. Like any authoritarian the kowtow to authority and seek someone else to dominate. So they blame women for their problems (among the various other psychodynamics at work) since they view them as easier targets than confronting other men.
Of course women aren’t turning out to be easy targets these days, so they’re even more angry.
Now, now, takshak — let’s try a more modest proposal, because we’re better than MRAs. How about every time a woman dies in childbirth, we kill the man who impregnated her? Let bygones be bygones, and just equalize things going forward.
NO OF COURSE WE DON’T WANT TO DO THAT THAT WOULD BE TERRIBLE AND WE’RE NOT MONSTERS
MRA land is like the worst type of religion: a death cult that has no interest in helping people.
Seems to me that there are three issues here and all need to be addressed.
1. The issue of workplace safety. This needs to be dealt with as soon as possible. Some jobs are more dangerous than others but all need to be made as safe as humanly possible and upgrades made to the health and safety issues as new technology becomes available. The workers also need an advocate with serious clout because employers won’t do any of this without being leaned on. OHS costs money that will cut into their profits. Or maybe nationalize these types of jobs so as to reduce the profit motive?
2. All jobs need to be available to women. They need full access to the military and to have the same rights as men on the front line in times if war or access to working in mines or construction if they so desire.
3. I’m not American so my view of selective service is a bit hazy but I think there are lots of ways that it could be useful that have nothing to do with the fighting wars. Maybe have school leavers take a year off before starting university and give them basic training in lots of different civil defense skills. Let them choose what they want to do but teach them something that would be helpful in a disaster situation. Something like putting together fast moving networks to help during major floods, storms, tornados or fires. Or community projects. Or a well coordinated response if a nuclear power station is breeched by earthquake or tsunami. If you’re going to have selective service it needs to be something more than just a proto-draft. People need to get something out of it and so does society. Both sexes could be required to participate and they should be paid for their time so that by the time they go to university they wouldn’t need to rely so heavily on student loans and they can be called on to help out when their communities are in danger. If you have a whole generation trained this way you have a huge pool of people able to help themselves in bad situations and able to help others. If they have this kind of training and ethic I think you would be able to mobilize a large volunteer army of both sexes if the need arose.
Sort of like Sithrak, only more miserable.
And so is “Me Tarzan, you Jane — we ooga-booga?” as a pickup line.
For that matter, pickup lines in general. That shit is just too tacky to live. Hail Darwin!
That spinning seal is hypnotic. Like it’s trying to tell me something…
…yes master… all the fish….
MRAs really need to stop being punitive about women not doing what they were not permitted to do. We’ve been working for decades to get women access to the military and it isn’t our fault if sexist men choose not to employ women to do dangerous work. Change that attitude and women will apply for those sorts of jobs.
Also, dangerous work tends to be lucrative and keeping women away from the front line in wartime means that they’ll not be promoted and challenge men for the higher ranking jobs.
Gary Larson had that one covered! 😀
Let’s start with your second paragraph first.
Leaving aside your petulant framing of the issue (“this is proof of sexism against women,”) senators are lawmakers. Yes, I think that when the overwhelming majority of people making our laws are male, that reflects sexism.
1) Yes, work place safety is a work place safety issue. I know, it’s a difficult concept. Take your time thinking about it.
Take a look at work place casualties before worker safety laws were introduced (and while you’re at it, notice that it isn’t only men who’ve suffered on that score. Ever heard of the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire? Google it.)
2) The fact that some jobs have historically been seen as “men’s jobs” (or “women’s jobs”) is also a gender issue. Feminists have always pointed this out and fought to eliminate the “mans job/woman’s job” dichotomy. Feminists have always fought for women to be able to enter male dominated jobs–and for men to be able to enter female dominated ones.
3) Resistance to women in traditionally male professions has come mostly from men–including the men in the professions themselves who have harassed female colleagues.
As for your first paragraph:
No, dipshit. Talking about equality in dangerous professions is not raging against women. Talking about imposing a quota of dead women before you’ll accept equality in dangerous professions is raging against women.
Kid you not, one day I was debating with an MRA who asked angrily why I as a feminist didn’t support equal rights re: the draft. I told him I did and though I’d rather the draft be permanently done away with, if not I’d want it to be gender blind. He turned right on a dime and told me he didn’t think women had any business serving in the military. Unbelievable.
GNL, workplace deaths are a gendered issue but not in the way you’re thinking. Men are primarily in these jobs not because society just hates men so much, but because women have been seen as too weak for these jobs and excluded or outright barred from them. Read some personal accounts from women entering these kinds of fields, it’s hair-raising. Believing there’s a “disposable male” outlook is getting it backwards: men were for a very long time viewed as the only gender serious enough, emotionally/physically strong enough for these jobs.
Women have always died in childbirth. Modern techniques have improved women’s chances but maternal mortality has not yet been eradicated. So, going by MRA logic, we need to even it up and start killing off fathers with an accelerated death count at the beginning to make up for the last 100 years.
It’s all so mind-bogglingly stupid.
And how did I miss cloudiah & takshak’s posts? OMG! The stupid is contagious!
Only vaguely related, but I found an archive of interviews of female coal miners. Only two are actually available online, but it’s an interesting project!
@seranvali
You mean you want Barack Hussein Obama to indoctrinate our young people into a secret UN fascist-communist-muslim army trained to rise up and take our guns and send us all to FEMA death camps at a moment’s notice? Not with my tax dollars!
/sarcasm
Seriously, that is a really good idea. Unlikely to happen in our insane political climate, though.
ugh, sorry.
Replace ableist term in previous post with “irrational and disconnected from reality.”
Correction, more interviews are available here.
Shayla, that reminds of a time a couple of years back when there was some discussion about allowing women into combat roles with the Australian defence forces. I was watching a debate on TV and the arguments included:
1. Women would dies, which would mean less people in the next generations, which means the Indonesians “win”
2. Women are too concerned about their nails to want to do any hard work.
3. Men would be too concerned about the women in their unit, reducing the efficacy of the unit as a whole
And my personal favourite:
3. Women’s periods would attract dogs.
I should mention that there were women currently serving the defence forces participating in this debate as well. The fact that they didn’t just up an leave was amazing to me.
GillieMimosa, are you a fellow Aussie? 🙂
What gave it away? 🙂