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A Man Going His Own Way offers a plan for gender equality. It involves killing hundreds of thousands of women

A woman at work. But shouldn't she be DEAD?
A woman at work. But shouldn’t she be DEAD?

This blog gets a lot of drive-by commenters, usually hostile, who drop one comment and then vanish, never to return. A lot of these comments are insults and one-liners, but a good number of these one-shot numbers, apparently seeking to maximize the impact of their one bit of input on this blog, deposit mini-manifestos setting forth their grand visions of what Men’s Rights stands for, why feminism is evil, or whatever it is that has them most riled up that day.

The most recent of these manifesto-droppers was a self-described Man Going His Own Way called Disgruntled, who set forth at some length his own rather punitive version of gender equality. It’s a rather revealing document, so I thought I would share it with you all.

Disgruntled started off by declaring that

I … demand increased equality among the 2 main genders and whatever additional gender-types have entered the fray

But his vision of equality is a rather blinkered one, to say the least. He singles out three areas in which men fare worse than women, and demands not that the suffering of men be alleviated — but that the suffering of women be ratcheted up to meet that of men’s.

He starts off with a reasonable enough request, one that is in fact supported by most feminists:

One demand I have is that females in the USA be required by law, as males are, to sign up for the military draft and to be subject to a draft if enacted.

Indeed, when Selective Service registration was reinstated in 1981, the National Organization for Women sued to include women. And given that women can now officially serve in combat in the armed forces, it seems likely that women will be included in registration as a matter of course.

Not that this is really much of a live issue, since the draft itself is dead and isn’t going to be resurrected in the forseeable future.

But Disgruntled’s next demand shows what his real agenda is:

To achieve parity I want the vast majority of draftees to be females until a general equality is attained with the numbers of dead and maimed males from past wars. To ease the determination I would start with World War 1.

That’s right: Disgruntled is calling for a government-sponsored lady-killing operation, one which would mean the death of hundreds of thousands of women, because women weren’t dying in combat during a period when they weren’t allowed to serve in combat.

Indeed, during World War I, when Disgruntled begins his program, they weren’t  allowed to vote.

He’s not the only MRA to feel this way; A Voice for Men has advanced a similarly punitive, if less drastic, “solution” to gender inequality in the armed forces.

I should note that the period that Disgruntled is trying to make up for, the twentieth century and early twenty-first, was a century of mass carnage. The United States managed to escape the worst of that carnage; while we were involved in numerous wars and other military operations, no wars were fought on US soil.

This may have given Americans — and American MRAs in particular — a rather skewed vision of what war is. The vast majority of American casualties in twentieth (and twenty-first) century wars have been military personnel — that is, they’ve been overwhelmingly male.

But in fact, in most wars, civilians (male and female, adults and children) make up roughly half of all casualties, some dying as a direct result of military actions and some as the result of disease and famine. In World War II, last century’s bloodiest war, possibly as many as 2/3 of the total casualties were civilian. Men don’t have a monopoly on suffering in wartime.

After a brief mention of criminal sentencing disparities, Disgruntled moves on to another topic that is a favorite of MRAs:

Another life aspect is the woeful number of males maimed or dying performing the tasks that keep the USA operating on a daily basis. As a society we must do all we can to get females employed in those high-risk jobs that traditionally have high injury/death rates.

Again: the solution is for more women to die!

Interestingly enough, though MRAs talk about “getting” women into these professions all the time, the women who have tried to enter professions like coal mining have faced massive resistance, not from feminists trying to protect them from dangerous “male” jobs but from management — and the men in these jobs themselves. Women coal miners not only face the dangers of the job, but open hostility and sexual harassment from their male co-workers as well.

Now, a real men’s movement — one interested in actually helping men and not just in attacking women or gleefully imagining them getting their comeuppance by dying in war or in a mine collapse — would look at the reports of (mostly) men dying in accidents on the job and would, you know, ACTUALLY TRY TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT UNSAFE WORKING CONDITIONS.

It seems weird to have to point out that generally speaking real activists try to do something about the issues they care about, but in all my reading of the manosphere over the last few years I have not once seen any MRA actually attempt to examine why there are so many workplace deaths, much less ask what can be done about it.

Sure, MRAs complain about workplace deaths all the time, but simply as “proof” that men are the “disposible sex” and that women are a bunch of spoiled brats. Or, like Disgruntled, they use it as an excuse for elaborate fantasies of what Michael Kimmel calls “restorative, retaliatory” violence.

Do you want to know why there are so many workplace deaths?

Maybe it’s because companies that put workers at risk with serious violations of safety regulations get only a slap on the wrist from OSHA? The typical OSHA fine for a serious violation is $1700. Even if someone dies as a result of this violation, the maximum fine is only $7000.

Maybe it’s because so many employers put temporary workers in dangerous situations with inadequate training?

Maybe it’s because so many employers don’t give a shit about immigrant workers? As one recent report on preventable death in the workplace (from which I cribbed the above points)  notes:

While the overall U.S. fatality rates for workers have gradually decreased over time (though they are still too high), the fatality rate for immigrant workers has increased at an alarming rate.

When you start looking into the details, you discover that workplace deaths happen for some pretty predictable reasons: companies try to cut costs by cutting corners, and regulators (deeply intwined with the industries they regulate) look the other way. And so workers — particularly more vulnerable workers like immigrants, temp workers, and young workers — pay the price, sometimes literally with their lives.

It’s a labor issue. A class issue. A race issue. And insofar as it’s a gender issue, it’s not feminists or “cultural misandry” that is to blame, but rather a patriarchal narrative that suggests that macho men don’t need to worry about following the rules (even if those rules are designed to protect your life), that stoic men shouldn’t complain about rough conditions at work.

How do you organize to fight this? You don’t yell about the “death professions” on the internet. You don’t fantasize about how great it would be if more women died in coal mines. You actually research the issue rather than reciting MRA slogans. You contact the people who are already working on the issue — mostly labor activists — and ask how to help.

And that’s the problem here. MRAs don’t want to help. They want to rage against women.

And so comfortable middle-class MRAs, whose jobs are as about as dangerous as the lives of my (indoor) cats, appropriate the real suffering of vulnerable poor and working-class men as an excuse to yell at women online and fantasize about their deaths — all while doing precisely zilch to help the men they claim to care so much about.

Hell of a civil rights movement you’ve got there.

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katz
10 years ago

There’s an inherent problem with IQ tests, as I see it: Lateral thinking. An objective test with right and wrong answers can only model intellect as a very linear, one-dimensional thing: You either know the answer or you don’t. But neither the real world nor human brains work that way. Not only can those tests not measure multiplicity or nuance of answers, which are important elements of intelligence, but really smart people are notorious for coming up with better answers that the test didn’t account for.

Simple example. Give the next number in this sequence: 3, 1, 4, 1, 5…

The only way to account for lateral thinking would be to move from an objective test to a subjective one with open-ended questions scored by another human being. But then it’s, well, subjective, both vulnerable to all kinds of bias and limited by the intelligence of the grader.

Robert Ramirez
10 years ago

Does it disturb anyone else but me that kitt666 just can’t seem to stay on topic?

Ally S
10 years ago

Also, according to the transcript, he argues that the value men have for women comes along with greater risks for men. Unfortunately, he conveniently ignores the fact that the patriarchal relationship deprives women of power and agency because they are subordinated.

Another flaw in his argument is that he asserts that objectification is inevitable. It’s not. You can find someone attractive without objectifying them. And this example:

The relationship between client and wholesaler doesn’t have to extend beyond personal indifference, and yet both parties can still derive value from the exchange. To the wholesaler, the client is a means of acquiring money in exchange for goods, and to the client, the wholesaler is a means of acquiring goods in exchange for money.

is not objectification. The relationship would only be objectification if it involved one party seeing the other as a mere object for obtaining goods. This is a result of capitalism and is definitely not ethical at all – nor is it inevitable.

titianblue
titianblue
10 years ago

@robert ramirez, he’s admitted on an MRA subreddit that he is doing exactly that deliberately to troll us.

Ally S
10 years ago

@katz

That’s a really powerful critique of the IQ test. One I certainly haven’t heard before. In addition to the problem of lateral thinking, IQ tests are also timed, and while perhaps there’s something I don’t understand about the tests, I have a hunch that the timed nature of the test influences to some degree the cognitive ability of the test takers – for better or for worse.

katz
10 years ago

There’s some logic behind timed tests, since coming up with the same answer faster can be one element of intelligence, but spending more time coming up with a better answer is, IMO, strictly better: You’re demonstrating both your ability to come up with the best answer and your ability to judge how much time to spend on a problem to come up with the optimal solution, instead of just dashing something off quickly.

Can’t help suspecting that most standardized tests are timed just to make them easy to administer.

kittehserf
10 years ago

Don’t IQ tests also presume someone has a certain level or type of education?

Ally S
10 years ago

There’s some logic behind timed tests, since coming up with the same answer faster can be one element of intelligence

I don’t even think that’s an element of intelligence, honestly. There are many reasons that one person may be slower at problem solving than another, not all of which result from difficulty in solving the problem.

For example, let’s the two of us were asked to answer a tricky math question and we both have the exact same level of math proficiency. Maybe I would be slower than you (or vice versa) in solving the problem, but that doesn’t necessarily mean I don’t understand how to solve it or that I’m less knowledgeable. Perhaps there is some external factor that is causing me to solve the problem more slowly. All speed indicates is the ability to think through things quickly – it doesn’t reflect actual understanding, reasoning, or problem-solving ability.

kittehserf
10 years ago

auggz, seconding all that. I loathe the Myers-Briggs test. How can they make things so binary? Has it never occurred to them that people can value justice AND mercy? Or that decision making is seldom either-or in such matters? Hell, even the thing about where you sit in a room is dumb. Kind of depends on the room, doesn’t it? Do I want to be near a window? Do I want to be away from a noisy group/radio?

There’s also the question of how you answer these things. Is it gut reaction, or how you’d treat a situation in reality? Does your socialised self answer, or the if-I-could-get-away-with-it fantasy self? The answers aren’t going to be the same. Last time I did one of those stupid things, the personality they attributed to me was unrecognisable – it was much more like Louis in his earthly days.

As for the IQ test, I distrust it totally. It might be useful for specific applications (particular tests or areas of work or whatever) but it isn’t going to tell you if someone’s a worthwhile person or an oxygen thief.

kittehserf
10 years ago

I also don’t like the idea of emotion and logic being opposites. Yeah, they’re obviously different, but what person doesn’t use emotion to think? No one would think if there wasn’t some goal for it, and human goals are obviously emotionally based. Even if some people just get bored and think, like myself, thinking for pleasure is still emotional.

It’s been demonstrated that when people can’t use their emotions (I think this refers to brain damage) they really can’t function. They can be as logical as they like but that’s got naff all to do with day-to-day living.

Plus, you notice the “emotion bad, logic good/logic male” straw Vulcans are usually just covering their own irrational loathing of women. They’re a bundle of emotions, all right, and all ugly ones.

katz
10 years ago

I don’t even think that’s an element of intelligence, honestly. There are many reasons that one person may be slower at problem solving than another, not all of which result from difficulty in solving the problem.

Which raises another problem with IQ tests: How you’re defining intelligence and what factors that encompasses.

Anyone want to toss out an answer to that number sequence?

vaiyt
10 years ago

@kitt33:
Yawn. Yet more iteration of the “but slaves were clothed and fed!” argument. Confusing coddling with privilege.

titianblue
titianblue
10 years ago

Either 1 or 9 – it’s a toss-up.

katz
10 years ago

Either 1 or 9 – it’s a toss-up.

Ding ding!

I once asked that question and a heated argument broke out about which answer was better. But neither is better. Both are valid.

Ally S
10 years ago

The most reliable personality test I know is the Big 5 test. It has a more rigorous design than the MBTI and its reliability doesn’t seem to be comprised by any binary constructions unlike the MBTI.

kittehserf
10 years ago

My answer to that number sequence was more like “who cares?” 😉

katz
10 years ago

My answer to that number sequence was more like “who cares?” 😉

Welp, nobody is forcing you to participate.

kittehserf
10 years ago

When my whole group at the Museum were being redeployed, the job advisor had us do some personality test – can’t remember what one – and told most of us we should be in customer service with White Lady Funerals.

I think either the test was fucked or she had shares in the company. :/

kittehserf
10 years ago

Eh, katz, I wasn’t having a go at you for asking – sorry it read that way! That’s my reaction to number tests in general.

katz
10 years ago

No prob. You remind me of people’s reactions to interview 2.0 questions. (“How would I determine the weight of a 747? WTF does this have to do with my job?“)

Robert
Robert
10 years ago

Kitteh – the idea of a company actually, factually called White Lady Funerals is strangely amusing. I’m not going to think about it too much.

Also, kitt’s outbursts remind me of hearing one end of a telephone conversation and trying to imagine what the other end is – because they don’t seem to sync up with what’s going on here very well.

Sam-I-Was?
Sam-I-Was?
10 years ago

IQ tests seem to test more how you are taught to learn things versus how intelligent you are. If you have a lineal mind you will do better on IQ tests, big flippin whoop. I know people who rank highly on IQ tests who would burn water, I know people who rank lower who are some of the smartest people I know. The ability to take a test doesn’t tell you how intelligent you are.

sparky
sparky
10 years ago

My answer to that number sequence was more like “who cares?”

But, see, that’s a perfect illustration of another criticism of tests like these. Looking at a question and going, “What the heck does this have to do with anything?”

One of the tasks in the WAIS involves putting blocks together to form a certain shape. Another involves putting illustrated cards together to form a story. So, y’know, “What the heck does this have to do with anything?” is a valid question. Particularly when testing adults. “Here. Play with these blocks. It’ll tell us how intelligent you are!”

Argenti Aertheri
10 years ago

Oh gods, the blocks. When she got those out I commented I would try to be less of a smart ass than I was when I took it as a kid (I infamously asked if it was supposed to be hard, because it wasn’t, spatial skills, I have them…spelling otoh, not so much)

But my real question is just how you got 9? *puts on Dalek voice* EXPLAIN!!

kittehserf
10 years ago

No prob. You remind me of people’s reactions to interview 2.0 questions. (“How would I determine the weight of a 747? WTF does this have to do with my job?“)

That takes me right back to the interviews I did for Centrelink a decade ago. It was a group thing where we were – I kid you not – stranded on an alien planet and had to decide what stuff we needed to recover from our wrecked spaceship.

What this had to do with “how the fuck do I keep up with constantly changing, complex legislation and sort people in real need from the few who play the system” I still don’t know.

Robert – it was white as in the colour of the offices, cars, coffins and so on, not the race of the people working there or the customers. The uniforms were white and pale pink (barf) and yes, the staff were all women. It was mainly set up as a contrast with all the usual funeral companies.