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A Voice for Men boldly opposes respect for women

Hardly a controversial message, you wouldn't think.
Hardly a controversial message, you wouldn’t think.

If you live in New York state, you may have seen the poster above plastered on a bus shelter; or you may have seen it posted somewhere on the internet. The message is pretty simple, and it’s sad that it has to be said: kids are pretty impressionable, so teach your sons to treat women with basic respect.

The purpose of the ad campaign, sponsored by the New York state Office for the Prevention of Domestic Violence, is pretty clear as well: teaching boys respect for women lessens the chances that they will abuse women as adults.

Numerous studies have found that men with sexist attitudes towards women are more likely to try to control their wives or girlfriends with physical abuse. Indeed, one recent study even found that brief exposure to sexist jokes made men more inclined to brush off violence against women, at least amongst men with sexist attitudes to begin with.

Speaking of which, the sexist jokes over at A Voice for Men have unveiled a hilarious new “meme,” which just happens to be inspired by the “awaiting instructions” PSAs we’ve been discussing. And here it is:

From A Voice for Men. I've blurrred the women's faces.
From A Voice for Men. I’ve blurrred the women’s faces.

The logic here is airtight: because some women get drunk and urinate in public, women don’t deserve respect.

I guess men never get drunk and urinate in public, or ever do anything vaguely embarrassing that gets caught on camera?

Is it really asking too much to respect people as people, foibles and all?

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Marie
Marie
7 years ago

@Octo

Dude, but you’re ignoring when people are pointing out where they think you’re wrong. You’re saying it’s a reference to when you were wrong, but kinda acting like you can’t be wrong here. FFS.

And it was innocent in that it wasn’t an attack on you. I’m not really giving a fuck how many cuss words kiwi girl uses, so long as they aren’t slurs.

Octo
Octo
7 years ago

Well, I don’t think I’m wrong here. Otherwise I wouldn’t argue my point here, right? But of course I’m a fallible human being, so I *can* be wrong. I just don’t think I’m here.

titianblue
titianblue
7 years ago

Otherwise I wouldn’t argue my point here, right?

Wouldn’t you? How do we know that? Lots of people come here and argue black is white.

Octo
Octo
7 years ago

Wouldn’t you? How do we know that? Lots of people come here and argue black is white.
Well, concerning my statistics position I can continue with providing arguments all night long (because I really think Fade had a mistake in basically assuming a fixed-limit total number of homicides) , but I don’t think you mean that in particular. As for “proving good faith” in general, well, one how would one even do that? I’m open to suggestions.

opheliamonarch
7 years ago

@Octo, I’ve been reading your comments in various threads. They all amount to sneaky ‘What about the Menz?’ You concede points about feminism purely to lay the ground for your next disingenuous point about how men have it worse.

I’ve seen some covert trolls in my time:

“I’m not an MRA but…”
“I’m not a sock, I just agree with Trolly McTroll”
“I’m a feminist ‘insert feminine name here’ but white males are totally subjugated by the feeemales”

Congratulations, you’re a new species.

“I’m a feminist, I’ll concede some feminist points to start with but only as a foundation for more talk about the hardships of men. Oh yeah, and I argue with everybody for no apparent reason”

And yes, I understand statistics, your comments were all noise.

CassandraSays
7 years ago

FWIW, my troll senses have been tingling since Octo first appeared. Honestly, though, does it matter if it’s deliberate trolling or just assholery? In either case, people are free to respond with “the things you are saying are bullshit” or “I do not like you, sir or madam, so stop pretending that we’re all friends here”.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
7 years ago

Did everyone else miss this bit of hilarity from Octo, btw?

Of course, this is only about homicides and not domestic violence in general. Also, homicide means any kill “at home”, I think, so we have no data at all about who the perpetrators are. Male on male homicides exist, obviously.

Homicides mean people who were killed at home. Oserving the basic rules of how English functions as a language, if we were to try to make this meaning of “homicide” work we’d be discussing cases in which houses were murdered, rather than people. Home-icide. It’s what happens when your home is destroyed by strategically placed bombs, or a wrecking ball.

titianblue
titianblue
7 years ago

But Cassandrakitty, Octo is certain zie isn’t wrong … /lol

kittehserf
7 years ago

N’thing the comments about Octo and trolling, or asshattery that amounts to the same thing. I’ve had the something not right here all along with zir. Ophelia, “what about teh menz” is what I’ve been getting from all zir comments, with disagreement for its own sake thrown in.

Complaining about “fuck yous” is classic troll stuff, too. Anyone who’s bothered to read any thread here will have seen lots of swears.

Octo
Octo
7 years ago

Jesus, at least use “their”. Yes, I was wrong on that definition. English is not my first language.

Marie
Marie
7 years ago

@octo

?? Zir is just a gender neutral pronoun. You can tell us what pronouns you’d like to be called, and we’ll call you them.

@cassandra

Eh, to be fair, Octo did already admit to being wrong on the homocide definition. Still suspicious on the reluctance to consider they may be wrong, but they did admit they fucked up there.

kittehserf
7 years ago

There’s a trail of dubious comments all over the threads at the moment, so this one is just adding to suspicions.

Hey, Octo? Using zie and zir is a courtesy. I don’t know your preferred pronouns, and plenty of people don’t like “their” because it grates on their grammar.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
7 years ago

Like I said, I don’t think it matters that much if it’s classic trolling or just being unable to engage in a reasonable way because that’s hir personality. Except to David, maybe, since he seems to ban some subcategories of troll (like sockpuppets).

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
7 years ago

I’m willing to use whatever pronouns people prefer, but I hope “they” doesn’t become a common thing because it makes the gods of grammar cry.

kittehserf
7 years ago

I think of “troll” in a broader sense than “shit-stirring for the sake of it” – is that the classic definition? – it’s more about sundry misogynists coming here shitting on the carpet, whether they’re doing it sincerely or just trying to upset people.

titianblue
titianblue
7 years ago

English is not my first language.

Tell me you’re not posting from Harvard …

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
7 years ago

On “troll” – for me I usually mean a person who’s commenting in an attempt to rile people up because they find that amusing or someone who’s being disingenuous in an attempt at some sort of gotcha. There are lots of people whose beliefs about sexism, racism, and so on are totally different to those of most people here who I wouldn’t necessarily call trolls, but that doesn’t mean they’re going to get a positive reception when they say things that clash with the values of the majority of people who comment here, and if they act like it’s unfair that people are disagreeing with them and how could such a thing happen, then hey, may actually be a troll.

kittehserf
7 years ago

Isn’t it funny how the pattern so often goes:

1) Wall of text, generally written in good English
2) People disagree with content
3) “You didn’t understand/I didn’t make myself clear”
4) Repeat
5) Repeat
6) “English isn’t my first language!”

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
7 years ago

“Homicide” meaning “was killed at home” doesn’t really sound like an ESL error, but hey, like I keep saying, not sure that it matters in this case.

kittehserf
7 years ago

Yeah, that’s what I mean about my definition being pretty broad (though Manboobz-specific) – someone spouting misogyny (whether NWO level or the mealy-mouthed variety) on a feminist blog that’s all about mocking misogyny, qualifies as a troll for me.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
7 years ago

I think my definition is a bit more fine-grained due to too much time spent on sites full of lulz trolls. For this site though, some people may not be trolling, but I don’t see why their sincerity obliges people to be nice to them if they’re spouting sexist bullshit.

kittehserf
7 years ago

That “homicide” mistake reminds me of a funny moment in an English class eons ago. My teacher, a USian, was on a rant about the phrase “poor benighted blacks” being used of indigenous Australians. Trouble was she was ranting about how it referred to a class system and ranks they didn’t have here … yup, she thought it meant “beknighted”.

😛

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
7 years ago

…Trying to figure out how you could knight someone in a bad way.

kittehserf
7 years ago

Yes, that’s exactly why my definition’s a bit skewed – I’ve never spent time on sites with lulz troll infestations. “Spewer of sexist bullshit” condenses to “troll” for me. The great trolls of yore here were entirely sincere in their horribleness, but I’d never think of them as not-trolls because of that. Coming to a feminist site to demonstrate disdain or outright hatred of women is pretty damn trolly.

kittehserf
7 years ago

LOL I know, my teacher had me totally baffled with that one. Talk about “two nations divided by a common language”. To give her her due, I told her after class that she’d got the word wrong, and next day she told the class she’d mucked up. She was a cool teacher, actually; I wish I’d known more about feminism then, because some of the course touched on it.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
7 years ago

My favorite example of the two nations thing was when, aged 8, I asked someone sitting next to me at school in Texas if I could borrow their rubber.

titianblue
titianblue
7 years ago

Intereestingly (well, I thought it interesting), in Britain, Karen Ingala Smith has started a twitter account called “Counting Dead Women”.

One blog which Octo might care to read deals with the myths that women commit domestic violence and murder on a par with men.

http://kareningalasmith.com/2013/04/29/this-thing-about-male-victims/

In particular:

UK Homicide records between 2001/2 and 2011/12 (11 years) show that on average 5.7% (296 total) of male homicide victims and 44.2%(1066) of female homicide victims are killed by a partner or ex-partner. Expressed as an average of those killed by a partner or former partner over 11 years, 22% were men, 78% were women.

She explains her maths in detail in the comments, in case Octo wants to quibble.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
7 years ago

This is one of those things where, when people do quibble with the math, I start wondering if they ever talk to the women around them, or just pay attention to what’s happening in the families they know. I knew of cases of domestic abuse, and was aware of how it tended to be gendered, even as a child, long before any exposure to feminism.

katz
7 years ago

Suicide is when you kill someone named Sue.

Fratricide is when you kill someone at a frat party.

Genocide is when you kill someone named Gene.

Etc, etc.

kittehserf
7 years ago

Patricide is when you kill someone called Pat.

My favorite example of the two nations thing was when, aged 8, I asked someone sitting next to me at school in Texas if I could borrow their rubber.

Oh to have been a fly on the wall! 😀

Brooked
Brooked
7 years ago

@Octo
Note: If want an example of Kiwi Girls very impressive math skills check out this thread: http://manboobz.com/2014/02/07/dating-by-the-numbers-why-hacking-okcupid-is-a-waste-of-everyones-time/

First you make a brain-melting argument about how Fade’s percentages don’t matter because there are so many more overall male homicide victims.

Yet this is your next post:

But interesting talking points without the use of mathematics on page 83 of the England/Wales pdf… Apparently, while there is a significant amount of male victims of “partner abuse” (and now that should be a clear definition), there were still about half as many again female victims (5% to 7% or 4% to 6%). Of course, if we figure in that under-reporting is probably even worse for male victims, those numbers might come out more equal, but of course we can’t know for sure. And a difference of 50% more reported female victims is not that easily bridged. Forms of abuse, and also stalking, are the same with both genders, it seems.

So you have seemingly fallen back in love with percentages now that there are more overall female victims. FYI, you’re actually using mathematics here, poorly at that, and Kiwi Girl deftly picks apart this paragraph.

You can’t have it both ways, both these sets of statistics use categories based on the relationship of the person to the killer/abuser. If it’s wrong to do it for homicide (hint: it’s not wrong) then it would be wrong to apply the same categorical breakdown to abuse. A problem would occur if these categories weren’t mutually exclusive and there was double-counting, but they are mutually exclusive so that problem doesn’t occur.

Fade’s analysis was perfectly good, including the use of averaging.

You patronizingly brush aside her analysis with this hunk of assholery:

That is what I criticized there. Unless a Statistics-Equivalent Person to Fibinachi arrives here I do think the comparison Fade made is simply not statistically meaningful, for above mentioned reason.

Kiwi Girl’s response is dead on IMHO.

Fuck off for telling me I can’t do statistics. And fuck your smiley face.

katz
7 years ago

Remember the -ometer discussion? I’m getting vibes of that.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
7 years ago

Matricide is when you beat your mats with a stick to clean them.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
7 years ago

-Ometer discussion? That one seems to have fallen down the memory hole for me.

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

Pesticide is when you get rid of trolls, like Octo.

I’m still laughing at “homicide means killed at home.”

kittehserf
7 years ago

I can’t remember the -ometer discussion either.

Hey, hellkell! When’s the move on?

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

Not until late June/early July. We have to give our landlord 60 days notice, plus we don’t want to drive up there while there’s even the slightest chance of shit mountain weather. We also have to go up, find a place, find pet transpo, have a giant yard sale, hire movers, and buy a new car. And a million other little things.

kittehserf
7 years ago

Ah, the joys of moving house (let alone interstate) – not.

Kim
Kim
7 years ago

Octo – I don’t believe you’re trolling. I do believe you think you are a lot smarter and know a lot more about this than you actually do. I can see you’re trying, but you keep posting half-formed ideas right in the thread.

Assuming you do want to be part of this community, you might want to read more and comment less, so that when you do comment, you’re on point.

That is what I criticized there. Unless a Statistics-Equivalent Person to Fibinachi arrives here 😉

This, however, was just rude. Kiwi Girl (the one who you were talking to when you said this) is our resident statistics whizz.

katz
7 years ago

It was inspired by Christopher Pell, I think because of his “keylogger”, but we were coming up with alternate uses for various meters. A barometer tells you where you can get a drink, an anemometer locates tide pool life, a spirometer detects corrupt vice presidents, etc.

kittehserf
7 years ago

I guess an O’Meter would measure your Irish ancestry.

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

RE: cassandrakitty

I hope “they” doesn’t become a common thing because it makes the gods of grammar cry.

Actually, it has a loooong precedent in the English language. It was in the King James bible!

I… may have had to have this fight with a lot of people claiming that our pronoun preference was negated by grammar. <.<

My favorite example of the two nations thing was when, aged 8, I asked someone sitting next to me at school in Texas if I could borrow their rubber.

Oh my god. I had this EXACT SAME THING happen when I was in high school with a German exchange student! That poor girl. I was even in Texas!

My own example of language hilarity was when I was living in New Zealand, where apparently they don’t use the word ‘cilantro’ and pronounce ginger (the spice) and ginger (the redhead) differently. We each thought the other was putting us on.

kittehserf
7 years ago

How do they pronounce ginger differently, LBT?

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

RE: kittehs

In the USA, ginger the spice and ginger the redhead are pronounced the same, like “jinjer.” In NZ, apparently the spice is pronounced “ginger,” and the redhead is “jinjer.”

Kiwi girl
Kiwi girl
7 years ago

I’m scratching my head over that one as NZers are well known for our “lazy vowels” (and high rising terminals, I’m soooooo guilty of that). In that, when we say “beer”, “bear”, and “bare”, they’re all pronounced “beer”.

So I’m trying to work out how we say the same word differently.

Piss-take of our prime minister, to illustrate the point (I *don’t* talk like this, I promise):

kittehserf
7 years ago

I’m scratching my head over that, too – never heard of ginger being said with the hard g sound.

I’ve heard a joke that the Kiwis flogged all their vowels off to us. I think it might be true.

We have the rising terminals too, have had for ages. I always want to say “Are you asking me or telling me?” ::grinds teeth::

Funny thing: NZer recently introduced herself as (I thought) Keddy. What a cool name, thought I. Glad I didn’t say anything … her name’s Kitty. Which is also a cool name, but not the unusual one I thought it was! But sometimes I can’t tell Oz and NZ accents apart. I’d be struggling to name most USian accents too, and never mind trying to tell a Canadian from a USian!

Kiwi girl
Kiwi girl
7 years ago

I can tell a few Sydney accents now, but that’s about it.

For the Canadians, it seems to be in the way they pronounce their “o” so it’s more like “or”, but not as obvious as the South Africans (I’m better with spotting their accent now, I used to be stuck until I got them to say a word with an o in it). The only time I have been fooled recently was by an American who lived very north, practically just over the border from Canada (can’t remember the state, wasn’t Washington) and I called them a Canadian. I think that was a first for them. They laughed and took it in good grace.

I’ve had a bit of trouble with the Irish and Scots accents in the past – not the heavy accents, but the ones that have only a slight accent. To my ear, they both roll their r’s the same way.

NZ has been getting regional English accents (there are already regional Maori accents, and those existed before Europeans arrived). But given that no-one understands what we say anyways, I doubt non-NZers will notice. Our mangling of English is a trick so that we can pass secret messages to each other without having to change anything! 🙂

Fade
Fade
7 years ago

@kittehserf

I can’t tell canadian accent from US accent, and I live in the US XD

of course, i also suck at regional accents. When I moved from New York to Indiana, people kept telling me I had a New York accent, but they didn’t sound like they had indiana accents.

kittehserf
7 years ago

I always think of South African accents as “Sith Efrikan,” but that’s more the Boer-descended sound, I think.

I can never tell if Oz has any regional accents or not. The differences I hear are more of the class-indicator variety – think of the sort of thing Kath and Kim was sending up (though their parody of the sound was pretty mild).

About the only accents I’m reasonably good at picking are ones from the UK and Ireland, though it’s only the English ones where I can pick some regions – Yorkshire, Birmingham, Geordie, West Country and some London ones. This is what happens when you spend your life watching the BBC. 😛

Kim
Kim
7 years ago

I can tell a Melbourne person if they sound like Kylie did when she was on Neighbours.