Men’s Rightsers and Pickup Artists alike are obsessed with the dilemma of the so-called “Nice Guy” who can’t get laid. MRAs see his plight as a symptom of a gynocratic society in which fickle, asshole-loving women are the gatekeepers of sex; PUAs see it as a sign that beta males need to learn how to imitate the vaguely aloof swagger of the natural alpha male.
And both MRAs and PUAs completely miss the point.
To see just how badly they do, let’s take a look at a recent post from the sadly influential PUA shitbag Heartiste, who uses an alleged Facebook screencap of uncertain provenance as a springboard for a diatribe against the “desperate male,” that is, the “desperate, clingy ünterbeta male” who pursues a woman, often in a weirdly apologetic, even abject way, long after she’s made it clear she has no interest in him.
But Heartiste’s example, as you’ll quickly notice, isn’t exactly a textbook case of so-called “friendzoning.” (I’ve blotted out the dude’s face; Heartiste didn’t bother.)
Be warned: it’s a teensy bit long.
Yeah, so I’m thinking that the problem isn’t so much that the dude here is “too beta” as that he’s “a creepy stalker with no sense of boundaries and the obsessive persistence of a serial killer.” It’s not even clear why he’s developed this fixation on her. He says nothing to suggest he knows anything about her other than that she’s a “pretty lady,” and she doesn’t remember ever even meeting him.
Heartiste, naturally, takes him to task not for his creepery but for violating “just about every Poon Commandment” — that is, Heartiste’s set of “alpha male” rules for getting, well, “poon.”
He also notes the fellow’s repeated promises to not “take advantage” of her if she comes over to his place. Generally speaking, when someone casually promises not to rape you on your first date, and presents this as if it’s somehow a generous gesture on their part, it’s pretty much the opposite of reassuring, as it sort of suggests that they were at least considering it as a possibility.
But Heartiste sees it as an example of excessive chivalry:
Any man who thinks promising a woman that he “won’t take advantage of her” is the way to her heart is a power tool. Chivalry works in the abstract (specifically that abstract where unicorns are a possibility); in practice it’s an abysmal failure. A woman, if asked, will always say she wants a man “who respects her need to take it slow”, but in reality, where her words meet the unstoppable force of her tingles, a chivalrous gentleman’s pose is the equivalent of downselling: “Sure, this smartphone looks fast and functional, but it actually has parts made from Fisher Price toys. Try this cheapskate badboy clamshell over here instead.”
No, dude, the problem isn’t that this guy is being too “nice.” The problem is that he’s creeping out a random woman because he refuses to accept that she’s not interested in him.
The trouble with a lot of so-called “Nice Guys” isn’t that they don’t understand when a woman has rejected them — our creepy Romeo in the screenshots here was aware that he was probably “bothering” her only a few messages in. It’s that they refuse to accept these clear if implicit “no’s” as real” no’s.” Because, on some level, no matter how lonely and desperate and “ünterbeta” they may feel, they still feel entitled to sex with a “pretty lady.”
I rather doubt that many “Nice Guys” show up for work at companies that have interviewed them and hired someone else. The solution isn’t for these guys to learn “game”; it’s for them to learn to respect a “pretty lady’s” no as they would anyone else’s.
Andrew Lloyd Webber would no doubt dispute that. He wrote it after first meeting Sarah Brightman, whom he later married (and who sang that song herself). Ask him what it was, and he’d tell you it was just a big, grand love song. No doubt it’s meant to be interpreted as seduction. You’re not supposed to fall in love by using your head, after all…
It’s an uneasy, ambiguous song, for me. Even then, I found more than a few of the lyrics jarring and out of joint with the serenity of the tune. That’s the English major in me, always parsing everything! And in light of what happened to the short-‘n’-shitty relationship with the unhandsome (and very insecure, I now realize) would-be Casanova who played it for me in his shitbox, the seduction theme turned out to be a big, fat joke. He baffled me, tormented me and broke my heart, but I can’t honestly say I was seduced! And by the time he got tired of running around and riffling through his Little Black Book to find me again…I wasn’t even interested. Caveat seductor.
So I know he said this ages ago, but I have to…
“Which can be done in a flirty way; if there is some bantering going on, and it’s not a first encounter.”
Oh it most certainly can be! I don’t bite unless I’m asked very very nicely ^.^ I’ve definitely had sexytimes where nearly those exact words where used. But not first time sexytimes and with people who already knew that I’m a masochist. You could totally get away with saying that to me, particularly since there’s the clear line of of flirty banter, nothing more, but somebody I don’t remotely know? BLOCK BUTTON!!
Back on topic…
“What are statistical trends?” — Misandry.
Maria — that’s fucking scary, I’m sorry creeper creeped on you and your friend, and that her boyfriend was a jerk about it.
I had something else to say but I went and forgot it.
I just looked up the lyrics and EWWWW. Fuck off, creepy mask-wearing dude.
Maria – gods, what a horrible experience. And boyfriend’s reaction – seriously, what part of “I told this guy to fuck off and now he’s threatening me” did he not understand?
Argenti – yes, there’s all the difference, isn’t there? Banter between people who like each other, care about each other or love each other is a whooooole different thing from some scumbag coming up and insulting a random woman because he thinks he can browbeat her/gaslight her into being fucked (and fucked over). Hell, Louis and I tease and joke around with each other all the time, but negging? Fuck that and may the PUAs step on legos covered in itching powder.
Oh. My. God.
TheRedPill hears about another case of a rich celebrity having to pay a shit ton of money in alimony/child support (because rich celebrity) and attempting suicide (Cesar Milan) and then they start promoting murder-suicide of the wife and the judge.
Thread here:
http://np.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/1unyv5/til_cesar_millans_wife_the_dog_whisperer_filed/
Quotes here:
Killing people because you don’t want to pay child support is “dignity and honor”?
Yeah. And the best part is he’s a father of two boys–so if he’d followed their advice, he’d have left two young boys traumatized and orphaned.
And Redpillers claim women don’t care about anyone but themselves.
The divorce, and suicide attempt (as well as the unmentioned death of his dog, Daddy) all happened in 2010. That post happened about 6 hours ago (according to my computer).
Stay vigilant red pillers!
Redpillers in a nutshell:
Man using underhanded tactics, coercion, or rape to have sex with women, believing that having sex with women ruins them: sexual strategy is amoral, bro.
Woman using the courts to gain access to money she has social and legal rights to: KILL HER!!!!11!!11!!!
This was from a while ago, but I want to address it.
Kittehserf asked if negging really worked. Unfortunately, it does in fact work. I did the PUA thing years ago. Women who wouldn’t even spit on you if you were on fire will respond to it (most often with hatred, but at least you’re not getting ignored). More importantly, even if I was having multiple women in my bed a week, it wasn’t worth it. The PUA lifestyle is ugly and if there’s anything human left in you, you will hate yourself and what you are doing. It took a suicide attempt before I saw that.
If David is still wondering, yes, he did ban MaskandRose before, which is why I was taken aback to see him again suddenly. Honestly he is the biggest and most upsetting asshole I have ever encountered in these threads, and I wouldn’t mind not having to hear from him again for the rest of forever.
Comment from David on 9/21/13
“I’m banning Jason and themaskandrose for obvious reasons. (Dudes: if it’s not obvious to you, email me. It’s not about the posters.You are deeply shitty human beings.)
I should have banned both of them earlier. I apologize.”
Sincere thanks to the people who replied with advice. Thankfully it seems to be what I was doing anyway; so it doesn’t seem like I’ve crossed a line anywhere. I think that I probably just need to get out more and build a life where I’m busy enough that I too (unintentionally) ignore a text or a message now and then.
I read the “Welcome Kit” page. No ableist confusion of moral depravity for mental illness welcome here. Got it.
I have read Dr. Nerdlove in the past. Most of the site in fact. While there are pieces of good advice there, I find that Nerdlove often succombs to the same stereotypical thinking he rightly denounces. In particular I find his idea that men believe they are entitled to a conventionally attractive woman, if they just “try” hard enough, to be both wrong and troubling. I mean, I grew up saturated in the mass media like most of us and encountered that implicit message, but I think he really gives men too little credit. It is possible (and common!) for people – men included – to think critically about the messages they’re fed and to realize that we were never receptive to those messages in the first place.
My real objection to Nerdlove is personal, I guess. It’s hard to listen to someone tell you that you believe things that you don’t actually believe. For a lot of awkward guys (well, just me and a few friends) it’s not about feeling entitled to some woman you feel you’ve earned. Rather, the issue is that you come to feel that you’re deficient in some way, that there’s something deeply wrong with you that is driving everyone away. We know we’re the ones with the problem, not women or other men. It’s just frustrating that no-one can seem to hit on what exactly that problem is.
Maybe all this rambling counts as derailing, but I guess this post just really struck a chord with me because I saw a more extreme version of myself in that scary facebook guy.
I see you attract all kinds here.
Since I got a little worked up in my last comment, here’s something completely different to take our (at least my) minds off of it:
http://www.sunnyskyz.com/blog/79/The-27-Naughtiest-Cats-In-The-World-And-I-Can-t-Stop-Laughing
Thanks for answering, JoJo; that’s horrible. If you don’t mind telling – were the responses only hostile, or did it actually work in the sexual sense? If getting any sort of attention was the aim, then yeah, I can see that, but that’s never what PUAs claim.
I’m sorry PUA helped push you to the point of suicide; I hope it’s all long past.
Grumpycat: LMAO at those naughty kitties!
Grumpycat, those naughty cats are something else! 😀
completely off topic but today I learned a group of cats is called a clowder
A clowder or clutter of cats – and both are perfect!
How’ve you been, BigMomma? Is it still stinking hot up north?
That fish food eating cat is just weird. Fish food is, in every case I’ve ever seen, kept by the fish. But the food is more interesting? Okaaayyy then.
Also, it’s mostly algae and such, the cheap flakes are a good portion ash FFS (and this is why I feed my omnivores crisps)
Tangentially, my cucumber plan is working well. Snails eat cucumber, puff eats snails, snail population decreases a half dozen snails at a time (yeah, that’s only a few, but cucumber slices hold up a surprisingly long time under water, so a half dozen 2+ times a day means a couple dozen per slice)
Cat does not eat fish food. Though…she’d eat some of puff’s food, half inch shrimp for example. But those are frozen so idk how…nevermind, my ex’s bengal could get in the freezer.
I am very busy at work and lurking here…I am doing research and development into a new project so head is stuffed full of wool after a day on the computer.
It has been STINKING hot up here, you would have hated it, but a cool change blew through last night with some rain. A friend from Melbourne visited us and the North Coast over the holidays and got a rude surprise when he got back down south.
How’s you? Admittedly I keep up with the gang through lurking. The Scottish oppression discussion has been interesting.
clowder or is clawder better?
Rude surprise as in he came back to our cold spell? Ungrateful wretch! 😀 I was home last week and loved sitting in front of the heater knitting.
We’re in for a 39° day next week. Blech. Gimme 19° any day.
I’m not surprised you’ve only lurked of late, after all day working on the computer. Is it an interesting project – are you enjoying it?
I’d love to see the explosion if I showed ’em at Shakesville a pic of my teddy bear wearing his kilt and tweed jacket. He’s not ginger, but I could always photoshop him. 😉
Haven’t seen clawder, but it makes sense, doesn’t it? CLAWder. Sort of like claw + law and order all in one.
Incontrovertible evidence of the effectiveness of negging, marbles:
(I hope this hasn’t been posted before…)