Men’s Rightsers and Pickup Artists alike are obsessed with the dilemma of the so-called “Nice Guy” who can’t get laid. MRAs see his plight as a symptom of a gynocratic society in which fickle, asshole-loving women are the gatekeepers of sex; PUAs see it as a sign that beta males need to learn how to imitate the vaguely aloof swagger of the natural alpha male.
And both MRAs and PUAs completely miss the point.
To see just how badly they do, let’s take a look at a recent post from the sadly influential PUA shitbag Heartiste, who uses an alleged Facebook screencap of uncertain provenance as a springboard for a diatribe against the “desperate male,” that is, the “desperate, clingy ünterbeta male” who pursues a woman, often in a weirdly apologetic, even abject way, long after she’s made it clear she has no interest in him.
But Heartiste’s example, as you’ll quickly notice, isn’t exactly a textbook case of so-called “friendzoning.” (I’ve blotted out the dude’s face; Heartiste didn’t bother.)
Be warned: it’s a teensy bit long.
Yeah, so I’m thinking that the problem isn’t so much that the dude here is “too beta” as that he’s “a creepy stalker with no sense of boundaries and the obsessive persistence of a serial killer.” It’s not even clear why he’s developed this fixation on her. He says nothing to suggest he knows anything about her other than that she’s a “pretty lady,” and she doesn’t remember ever even meeting him.
Heartiste, naturally, takes him to task not for his creepery but for violating “just about every Poon Commandment” — that is, Heartiste’s set of “alpha male” rules for getting, well, “poon.”
He also notes the fellow’s repeated promises to not “take advantage” of her if she comes over to his place. Generally speaking, when someone casually promises not to rape you on your first date, and presents this as if it’s somehow a generous gesture on their part, it’s pretty much the opposite of reassuring, as it sort of suggests that they were at least considering it as a possibility.
But Heartiste sees it as an example of excessive chivalry:
Any man who thinks promising a woman that he “won’t take advantage of her” is the way to her heart is a power tool. Chivalry works in the abstract (specifically that abstract where unicorns are a possibility); in practice it’s an abysmal failure. A woman, if asked, will always say she wants a man “who respects her need to take it slow”, but in reality, where her words meet the unstoppable force of her tingles, a chivalrous gentleman’s pose is the equivalent of downselling: “Sure, this smartphone looks fast and functional, but it actually has parts made from Fisher Price toys. Try this cheapskate badboy clamshell over here instead.”
No, dude, the problem isn’t that this guy is being too “nice.” The problem is that he’s creeping out a random woman because he refuses to accept that she’s not interested in him.
The trouble with a lot of so-called “Nice Guys” isn’t that they don’t understand when a woman has rejected them — our creepy Romeo in the screenshots here was aware that he was probably “bothering” her only a few messages in. It’s that they refuse to accept these clear if implicit “no’s” as real” no’s.” Because, on some level, no matter how lonely and desperate and “ünterbeta” they may feel, they still feel entitled to sex with a “pretty lady.”
I rather doubt that many “Nice Guys” show up for work at companies that have interviewed them and hired someone else. The solution isn’t for these guys to learn “game”; it’s for them to learn to respect a “pretty lady’s” no as they would anyone else’s.
Pretentiousness and douchebaggery are all Fartiste has.
Re-reading the stalky loser’s blather makes me think of an answer to him, prior to blocking: Whatever tiny chance there was I’d be interested in you disappeared the minute you wrote “ur” instead of “you’re”.
Someone really should clue men on social media in on the fact that using poor grammar/spelling/sentence structure doesn’t make women think you’re hip and too cool to punctuate, it just makes them think you’re stupid and/or lazy.
Really. And he has a German surname, too, in real life! There really is no excuse for this level of Scheißdrecksblödsinn. He starts out with an uncapitalized German noun, unnecessarily umlauted, then switches midstream to Greek? Was für ‘n Doofmann.
PS to Alice: That thread is made of WIN. Fuck rape culture, I’m ready for FIRE culture!
I can’t remember if I banned themaskandrose or just had him on moderation — does anyone else remember? But I let through a comment of his above just because it was so wonderfully clueless.
Hi, Aias Oileus, are you new? I haven’t seen your nym before. Have a Welcome Package! 🙂
http://artistryforfeminismandkittens.wordpress.com/the-official-man-boobz-complimentary-welcome-package/
On the matter of not knowing what the heck you’re doing vis. relationships … you’re not alone. I think a lot of people flounder just as much; I know I would, and would have no idea if someone liked me or Liked Me, if you know what I mean. I’m very glad not to have to look, or wonder if it’ll happen.
http://yoshouldidumpthisahole.com/
David, he was on moderation, I think, though for me he’s gone well into bannable territory long since.
So misguided, because men never actually rape women amirite?? No you’re not right go away now.
Hi, Ally S!
Sometimes, I think they really are controlled by their sexual interests, but it feels uncomfortably close to saying they are not at fault. Maybe their sexual interests occupy a high priority in their lives, and society provides all the tools to resolve any of their cognitive dissonance.
I love the response to “she only showers twice a week tops” in that, Magpie. 😀
Mr V for Vendetta needs to read The Gift of Fear, it already covered this. If someone randomly blurts out stuff about how they’re not going to hurt you, it usually means that they’re thinking about hurting you.
Ironic he brought that up since we were having the conversation about red flags earlier.
David — I’m 95%+ sure he’s been banned. At least once.
Aias Oileus — I think it depends how often, and how many times total, you message after getting no reply, plus how well you know each other. Being on the receiving end of occasional poking from friends when I’m depressed is kinda nice, a bit of a reminder that I could respond and it wouldn’t be all weird cuz we hadn’t spoken while I was all miserable.
As a general rule, I’d say that you shouldn’t send “how are you?” messages, without a reply, anymore times than you’ve previously spoken. Exception being if you hit if off well, then I’d say you can send a second along the lines of “hope all is well, let me know if you want to hang out sometime” and leave it at that.
Pecunium — reminder: pester me if I pull a disappearing act. Unlimited pestering is acceptable, annoying me into replying is at least getting me to talk to someone, and I really do go into near total solitude.
“Utterly misguided fear”? Um, NO. Being raped or killed is the most common threat we face, even “only” on the Internet. Being a woman expressing an opinion (or merely present) in public is all it takes to get those threats. And the fact that this guy was trying to pat down her fears in that arena shows that he was, in fact, thinking of doing something unwanted to her when he got the opportunity. A really chivalrous guy wouldn’t be persistently pestering a woman he doesn’t even know for a date, much less trying to reassure her that he wasn’t a creep. This guy is a creep. She was right to ignore and reject him. And deep down, he knows it.
I know thinking can be hard, shitforbrains, and I have no faith that you will EVER pull it off, no matter how hard you try.
You also have to love creeper’s assumption that the fear that he might rape her is the only possible reason the woman he’s harassing might not want to go out with him.
The fact this slimy little twit seems to have nothing to say doesn’t help his cause, either.
If I never again hear somebody make out a woman’s fear of being assaulted by a stranger to sound like it’s just a quaint, irrational, emotional feeeemale thing, it will be too soon.
Come to think of it, “slimy” puts me on to who this guy reminds me of – Gollum.
Precious, precioussss …
Potential reasons for rejection – she doesn’t find him physically attractive, he’s boring, he doesn’t come across as too bright, the way he’s insisting they know each other despite her not recalling meeting him is weird and offputting, she has a boyfriend, she’s a lesbian, she just has other shit to do and is annoyed by his pestering her…
But nope, apparently as long as he promises not to rape her there’s no possible reason for her not want to go over to his house to “chill” with him.
Or they did meet and she remembers him all too well, but was being kind in saying she didn’t know him.
That too! See, plenty of reasons that aren’t fear of rape or lack of “tingles” due to his not being rapey enough.
Kittehserf – I could have used that site a few times in my younger days – sometimes you just want someone to tell you what you’ve been thinking yourself. 🙂
On saying what they are thinking: I knew a bloke who, every time he drove past a lone woman pedestrian, would start talking about how easy it would be for a rapist to attack her, and all the times he and his friends picked up hitch hikers and how lucky that it was them that picked them up, not a rapist. I don’t know if he talked like that when I wasn’t in the car. It was scary.
“Utterly misguided fear.” You mean this:
http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fvv.pdf
Or this?:
http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/pdf/sv-datasheet-a.pdf
OT but I was thinking last night about the “Brave is oppressing Scots and gingers!” business and it occurred to me that Miss McIver must be terribul – ginger AND tartan, oh the oppression!
@ kittehs
Want an extra laugh? I actually gave my Dad glasses with a pretty tartan-like design in silver and gold on them as part of his Xmas present and he loved them. But no, Scots hate it when people associate them with tartan.
And he’s going to use them to serve whisky too, wich was the intention!