Men’s Rightsers and Pickup Artists alike are obsessed with the dilemma of the so-called “Nice Guy” who can’t get laid. MRAs see his plight as a symptom of a gynocratic society in which fickle, asshole-loving women are the gatekeepers of sex; PUAs see it as a sign that beta males need to learn how to imitate the vaguely aloof swagger of the natural alpha male.
And both MRAs and PUAs completely miss the point.
To see just how badly they do, let’s take a look at a recent post from the sadly influential PUA shitbag Heartiste, who uses an alleged Facebook screencap of uncertain provenance as a springboard for a diatribe against the “desperate male,” that is, the “desperate, clingy ünterbeta male” who pursues a woman, often in a weirdly apologetic, even abject way, long after she’s made it clear she has no interest in him.
But Heartiste’s example, as you’ll quickly notice, isn’t exactly a textbook case of so-called “friendzoning.” (I’ve blotted out the dude’s face; Heartiste didn’t bother.)
Be warned: it’s a teensy bit long.
Yeah, so I’m thinking that the problem isn’t so much that the dude here is “too beta” as that he’s “a creepy stalker with no sense of boundaries and the obsessive persistence of a serial killer.” It’s not even clear why he’s developed this fixation on her. He says nothing to suggest he knows anything about her other than that she’s a “pretty lady,” and she doesn’t remember ever even meeting him.
Heartiste, naturally, takes him to task not for his creepery but for violating “just about every Poon Commandment” — that is, Heartiste’s set of “alpha male” rules for getting, well, “poon.”
He also notes the fellow’s repeated promises to not “take advantage” of her if she comes over to his place. Generally speaking, when someone casually promises not to rape you on your first date, and presents this as if it’s somehow a generous gesture on their part, it’s pretty much the opposite of reassuring, as it sort of suggests that they were at least considering it as a possibility.
But Heartiste sees it as an example of excessive chivalry:
Any man who thinks promising a woman that he “won’t take advantage of her” is the way to her heart is a power tool. Chivalry works in the abstract (specifically that abstract where unicorns are a possibility); in practice it’s an abysmal failure. A woman, if asked, will always say she wants a man “who respects her need to take it slow”, but in reality, where her words meet the unstoppable force of her tingles, a chivalrous gentleman’s pose is the equivalent of downselling: “Sure, this smartphone looks fast and functional, but it actually has parts made from Fisher Price toys. Try this cheapskate badboy clamshell over here instead.”
No, dude, the problem isn’t that this guy is being too “nice.” The problem is that he’s creeping out a random woman because he refuses to accept that she’s not interested in him.
The trouble with a lot of so-called “Nice Guys” isn’t that they don’t understand when a woman has rejected them — our creepy Romeo in the screenshots here was aware that he was probably “bothering” her only a few messages in. It’s that they refuse to accept these clear if implicit “no’s” as real” no’s.” Because, on some level, no matter how lonely and desperate and “ünterbeta” they may feel, they still feel entitled to sex with a “pretty lady.”
I rather doubt that many “Nice Guys” show up for work at companies that have interviewed them and hired someone else. The solution isn’t for these guys to learn “game”; it’s for them to learn to respect a “pretty lady’s” no as they would anyone else’s.
: : waves at Morrigan : :
Yeah Alice that is totally the logic behind rape. You don’t WANT to get raped you better prevent your self being raped.
But remember we can’t view all men as potential rapist. So…
BECAUSE you probably had sex with other men besides them (door knob) which is of no value to them …which makes you cheap .If you don’t want to have sex with them you must be a cheap whore.
Actually, the reason he told her he wouldn’t take advantage of her is because he’s showing empathy for some womens’ common, if utterly misguided, fear. It has nothing to do with “because he was probably thinking about raping her” or whatever nonsense you wrote. I know thinking can be hard, Futrelle, but I have faith you can pull it off if you really try hard enough.
The good news is that their “movement” in divulging these truths about some men lurking out there gives us defenses (more red flags) to avoid ourselves as women and to warn our daughters (sisters ,mothers,friends ) against.
Being informed as to the brutal reality of the dangers out there help .
Ick. Maybe one of the monthly themes for the Borg could be on “red flags & what to do when you see them.”
Red flags = instant red card!
If you guys do this, I would actually love to contribute.
I’m also willing to chip in on a red flag project (and of course provide the official meanie answer in terms of what to do).
Yes! I think this should be a theme.
I think that’s a great idea for a theme.
I really feel like women, especially young women, aren’t getting the message that they’re allowed to say no and push back when their boundaries are crossed at all (largely because a big part of society still doesn’t support our right to do so). So whatever we can put out there to support that idea that hey, someone who’s crossing your boundaries is doing something wrong and if you end up having to tell them to back off it’s them who’s being rude and unreasonable, not you, could be helpful.
I could never figure out how a sex pest doesn’t realize they’re being a pest. Well, no, I can. Society bends over backwards to protect their fee-fees…and of course, we sense that a flat out rejection might bring out their inner Hulk. You’d think after being called a stalker or creepy a couple of times they’d go into introspection mode. But instead they want to call the use of the word “creeper” misandry and try to convince the rest of us it’s the worst form of persecution imagineable.
I’ve had men try to wear me down in meatspace. I always wonder where one’s pride goes when one tries to hook up with someone by smoothering the shit out of them. Is this the influence of Rom Coms or what?
“Ick. Maybe one of the monthly themes for the Borg could be on “red flags & what to do when you see them.””
Thank you for reminding me to ask this: my todo list, and part of how this got started, was the idea of making flyers for counter protesting MRA rallies, if anyone wants to do that, or even just email me the text, and I’ll mock them up, that’d be awesome sauce.
As for making it a monthly theme, I’m thinking it might be better to do it as a weekly or biweekly topic like Hippodameia’s Women in the Arts “column”. And I have a bunch of stuff for material in the 101s that I really must finish and post already. (If anyone has 101 type links pertaining to anti-Hispanic racism, I’ll love you forever, it’s the one section I need to finish)
On topic, dude, she doesn’t know you, and didn’t respond for MONTHS. You’re creepy.
Alice — as much as uncontrolled fire scared me, and the idea of burning like that makes me shudder, the responding paralleling what his victim might’ve heard are pretty good.
Maybe they need their manly menz pride restored by fucking the sexthing they want. Taking no for answer is only something you do with people.
I have had a few guys like that, only by the time they message with 3 times without me giving a reply, I start deleting and blocking. There’s no way I’d allow for it go on for that long. Stalker is still > than Heartiste though.
Oh god that facebook conversation. *shudders* Not as horrible as some of the stalkers my sister has had to deal with, but still, that is creepy as hell. The idea that anyone could think of that kind of creepy behavior as “chivalrous” is beyond me.
While that umm…exchange of messages is quite creepy and stalkerish, and that Heartiste guy is a douche obviously, it scares me to think that I’ve been in something resembling his position before. I’ve sent “how are you?” messages after a period of inactivity (not as many or as frequently or with as transparently aggressive language as the subject of the post) and i always feel terrible afterwards because yeah, it is creepy and bothersome and probably outside the bounds of some undefinable grace period set by some mysterious code of decorum that I’ve never been able to figure out. What scares me is that I see something of this guy in myself. I guess you could say that I’m insecure because I don’t think that any woman anywhere is interested in me or capable of being interested in me without some kind of effort on my part. The whole “relationships/sex just happen” thing doesn’t seem to apply to me. I have absolutely no idea what I’m doing. Sometimes I’ve had old friends or acquaintances message me out of the blue and I’m usually overjoyed that someone actually knows or cares that I exist. But I also know that when a man contacts a woman or “asks her out” in the “traditional” way there’s all kinds of negative social undertones because women have to think about their safety in a way that men generally don’t. I just don’t know what the right thing is to do. I don’t want to be creepy but I also don’t want to be alone my entire life, and I really, really hope that borderline creepy, stalkerish behavior like “being persistent” (as so many men have advised me to do) is not what’s required of me to bridge that gap.
I think what got me was the constant apologising. That’s minor compared with the fact of stalking, but reading it all in one hit made me want to yell STOP APOLOGISING AND FUCK OFF! at him.
If you have to constantly apologize then maybe, rather than doing that, you should consider stopping whatever it is that you’re apologizing for.
Oops. Didn’t mean to imply that I’d been in Heartiste’s position. That guy is the embodiment of everything I hate. Seriously, hate is a strong word, but wow. Reading his website reminds me of when I used to read neo-nazi, fundamentalist, and transphobic rad-fem websites out of curiosity.
Wow. That is long one-sided Facebook “conversation.”
3 months of her ignoring his messages. That’s not a hint. That’s a huge blinking neon sign.
And how lovely that Heartiste thinks creepy stalker dude is being “too chivalrous.”
It’s the safecracker approach to getting women. If you just keep trying various phrases in sequence till you hit on the magic combination of “chill”, “cool”, “wanna hangout” and “wht up”, she’ll spring open like a can of fake snakes.
Heartiste, meanwhile, never fails to be a guano tsunami of stupid advice and horrible writing.
What mystifies me is how anyone could consider him a “good writer.” His prose is among the most turgid and overwrought I’ve ever seen. Also, who the hell uses scatalogical metaphors that pretentiously?