Men’s Rightsers and Pickup Artists alike are obsessed with the dilemma of the so-called “Nice Guy” who can’t get laid. MRAs see his plight as a symptom of a gynocratic society in which fickle, asshole-loving women are the gatekeepers of sex; PUAs see it as a sign that beta males need to learn how to imitate the vaguely aloof swagger of the natural alpha male.
And both MRAs and PUAs completely miss the point.
To see just how badly they do, let’s take a look at a recent post from the sadly influential PUA shitbag Heartiste, who uses an alleged Facebook screencap of uncertain provenance as a springboard for a diatribe against the “desperate male,” that is, the “desperate, clingy ünterbeta male” who pursues a woman, often in a weirdly apologetic, even abject way, long after she’s made it clear she has no interest in him.
But Heartiste’s example, as you’ll quickly notice, isn’t exactly a textbook case of so-called “friendzoning.” (I’ve blotted out the dude’s face; Heartiste didn’t bother.)
Be warned: it’s a teensy bit long.
Yeah, so I’m thinking that the problem isn’t so much that the dude here is “too beta” as that he’s “a creepy stalker with no sense of boundaries and the obsessive persistence of a serial killer.” It’s not even clear why he’s developed this fixation on her. He says nothing to suggest he knows anything about her other than that she’s a “pretty lady,” and she doesn’t remember ever even meeting him.
Heartiste, naturally, takes him to task not for his creepery but for violating “just about every Poon Commandment” — that is, Heartiste’s set of “alpha male” rules for getting, well, “poon.”
He also notes the fellow’s repeated promises to not “take advantage” of her if she comes over to his place. Generally speaking, when someone casually promises not to rape you on your first date, and presents this as if it’s somehow a generous gesture on their part, it’s pretty much the opposite of reassuring, as it sort of suggests that they were at least considering it as a possibility.
But Heartiste sees it as an example of excessive chivalry:
Any man who thinks promising a woman that he “won’t take advantage of her” is the way to her heart is a power tool. Chivalry works in the abstract (specifically that abstract where unicorns are a possibility); in practice it’s an abysmal failure. A woman, if asked, will always say she wants a man “who respects her need to take it slow”, but in reality, where her words meet the unstoppable force of her tingles, a chivalrous gentleman’s pose is the equivalent of downselling: “Sure, this smartphone looks fast and functional, but it actually has parts made from Fisher Price toys. Try this cheapskate badboy clamshell over here instead.”
No, dude, the problem isn’t that this guy is being too “nice.” The problem is that he’s creeping out a random woman because he refuses to accept that she’s not interested in him.
The trouble with a lot of so-called “Nice Guys” isn’t that they don’t understand when a woman has rejected them — our creepy Romeo in the screenshots here was aware that he was probably “bothering” her only a few messages in. It’s that they refuse to accept these clear if implicit “no’s” as real” no’s.” Because, on some level, no matter how lonely and desperate and “ünterbeta” they may feel, they still feel entitled to sex with a “pretty lady.”
I rather doubt that many “Nice Guys” show up for work at companies that have interviewed them and hired someone else. The solution isn’t for these guys to learn “game”; it’s for them to learn to respect a “pretty lady’s” no as they would anyone else’s.
I’ve read about so, so many cases like this where ignoring the person’s constant harrassment doesn’t get the message through, but at the same time simply saying no might be just as ineffective. These types often seem to think that no simply means “convince me”.
If they are too “discreet” about their disinterest, they won’t stop. Ignore them, and they keep going. Be blunt and it may or may not work, often accompanied by insults and possibly worse, such as threats and/or guilt tripping.
I’m just glad I’ve never received such attention. The only unwanted comments have pretty much been strange males messaging me to ask me if I’m a lesbian, because I have short, brightly colored hair. Yeah.
Yes, we do. I’d rather assume the worst and be safe (even if wrong) than make kindly excuses and maybe not live to be sorry. After reading what Sam-I-Was said above, I’m doubly and triply convinced that this is the appropriate thing to do. I’ve had more narrow escapes than I care to talk about because I was more willing to listen to the little voice in the back of my mind saying “No, this is creepy, get out!” than I was to heed my Nice Girl™ Training and give some weirdo too much benefit of the doubt.
Also, enough with the autism card! I have a Facebook friend in the UK who is on the spectrum, and he’s nothing like the creeper above. He’s bright and often funny and very open about his troubles. His status updates frequently include transcripts of the many arguments he’s had with his own befuddled brain, and he is certainly NOT incapable of reading social clues, if his lovely girlfriend is any indication. He is politically and socially aware — much more so than I was at his age. He makes fun of Nice Guys™ all the time, and has a very healthy contempt for MRA/PUA bullshit in all its myriad forms. He would undoubtedly say the same things as everybody else here is saying about the creeper…and he would be adamant that autism spectrum disorders are NOT a Get Out Of Jerk Jail Free card!
“My parents asked if we had slept together & when I told them that he had raped me I heard “If you spread your legs for a dog you deserve the fleas” ”
This is why I can’t not be a feminist. This shit is fucking terrifying and cruel. How can someone’s parents say something like that to their daughter?
First I would like to apologize to anyone who was triggered by my post. I stewed about even posting & I had a horrible day and it all just came tumbling out. So if my post hurt anyone I am very, very sorry that I didn’t put in a trigger warning.
A few points, asshole was not autistic, on the spectrum or unable to read social cues. He preyed on my insecurities and counted on me not having a support system. He was found not guilty because of how society viewed/views women. Once I started to heal I started to work on changing those views. I don’t know if I will see the change in my lifetime but I have hope.
While I will alway be scarred by how he treated me and the response from what should have been my support system I have come out stronger on the other side. Thanks to him I helped open a rape crisis center. Thanks to him and therapy I learned how to walk away from toxic relationships not only with my friends and significant others but also my family. Thanks to what happened I learned to value myself and use that to help others. It was a long trip and there were many times I didn’t know if I would heal but I have. For anyone who is starting the journey know that you can survive. It is 20+ years on and I have survived and even thrived. I learned to cut people out who are toxic without making excuses for their behavior or feel badly.
And vaiyt, my parents (specifically my mother who said that) was not a feminist by any shade of the imagination. They believed that I brought what happened on myself. I cut them out for years thanks to therapy and now our relationship is on my terms and I can, and have, walked away until they treat me like they should I think feminism is about creating a safe environment where people are treated equally instead of making excuses for why something happened to someone. It shouldn’t and doesn’t matter if I had slept with him. That is what, as a feminist, I am trying to change.
Lastly, I could never imagine that there would ever be places like this when I was going through this. Thank you to everyone who has shared their stories and given support.
And I promise this is my last wall o’ text that I will post 🙂
No need to apologise for long posts, Sam-I-Was – one, you ain’t a troll, and two, you know what paragraph breaks are. 😛
Also, I haven’t said Hi, and have you had your Welcome Package yet?
(Hugs Sam-I-Was)
This right here is why misogynists don’t want women to talk to each other.
Thanks all, I will admit that I did sneak a look at the welcome package before. 🙂
I don’t typically post about my story simply because I am no longer his victim. I have taken charge of my life and he can no longer control me. I’m not the person I was before but I am strong and have developed a life that he can not touch. He still affects my decisions but he doesn’t affect my life.
PS Argenti I will say that as a born and bred ‘burgher I always get a smile when you start talking about Pittsburghese 😛
@Sam-I-Was? – by your “wall ‘o text”s, you have given me a lot of hope, along with probably hundreds of people who have and/or will read them.
Thank you.
I 100% agree that guy was weird and creepy and should have gotten the message. There’s a lot of guys out there that are just so sheltered they don’t even realize how creepy they are.
As a side note:
Why didn’t she block him on Facebook?
Just for you! She knew you would need a way in to imply that the actions of someone who “doesn’t even realize how creepy he is” after sending messages for months with no response was partially her fault, so she kindly provided you with one. Be grateful.
Hey, you tell me Chris. You’re the dating coach. I’m sure there’s a psychologically apt description of her behaviour which may or may not involve the words “attraction”, “attention”, “alpha”, “Game”, “Hypergamy”, “Ego-soothing” and or possibly “Orbiter”.
Who knows. Maybe she’s an ardent believer in free speech, or this is all set up.
What’s your take? 🙂
He can’t give that information away for free! But hey, I bet we could learn it for ourselves if we were to sign up for his 7 day online transformation course.
28 days, actually. It’ll make us an Everyday player.
Some people seem to think a verbal “yes” to consent is seen as an unreasonable demand, and body language should suffice, but ONLY a verbal “no” can revoke consent, because body language is too confusing!
(Amanda Marcotte pointed out that trend on the Pandagon thread, and it really clarified the dynamic I’ve seen way too often)
*Pandagon thread about the swedish rape acquittal. Need more coffee.
Seriously, dude, if you are a fat ugly man, go to the gym and let girls take care of ourselves.
We don’t need a guy like you to “protect us”
Misoginist pig!
What a stupid way to necro a thread.
Daniela, are you getting paid through fiverr? It’s okay. We’ll support you.