Men’s Rightsers and Pickup Artists alike are obsessed with the dilemma of the so-called “Nice Guy” who can’t get laid. MRAs see his plight as a symptom of a gynocratic society in which fickle, asshole-loving women are the gatekeepers of sex; PUAs see it as a sign that beta males need to learn how to imitate the vaguely aloof swagger of the natural alpha male.
And both MRAs and PUAs completely miss the point.
To see just how badly they do, let’s take a look at a recent post from the sadly influential PUA shitbag Heartiste, who uses an alleged Facebook screencap of uncertain provenance as a springboard for a diatribe against the “desperate male,” that is, the “desperate, clingy ünterbeta male” who pursues a woman, often in a weirdly apologetic, even abject way, long after she’s made it clear she has no interest in him.
But Heartiste’s example, as you’ll quickly notice, isn’t exactly a textbook case of so-called “friendzoning.” (I’ve blotted out the dude’s face; Heartiste didn’t bother.)
Be warned: it’s a teensy bit long.
Yeah, so I’m thinking that the problem isn’t so much that the dude here is “too beta” as that he’s “a creepy stalker with no sense of boundaries and the obsessive persistence of a serial killer.” It’s not even clear why he’s developed this fixation on her. He says nothing to suggest he knows anything about her other than that she’s a “pretty lady,” and she doesn’t remember ever even meeting him.
Heartiste, naturally, takes him to task not for his creepery but for violating “just about every Poon Commandment” — that is, Heartiste’s set of “alpha male” rules for getting, well, “poon.”
He also notes the fellow’s repeated promises to not “take advantage” of her if she comes over to his place. Generally speaking, when someone casually promises not to rape you on your first date, and presents this as if it’s somehow a generous gesture on their part, it’s pretty much the opposite of reassuring, as it sort of suggests that they were at least considering it as a possibility.
But Heartiste sees it as an example of excessive chivalry:
Any man who thinks promising a woman that he “won’t take advantage of her” is the way to her heart is a power tool. Chivalry works in the abstract (specifically that abstract where unicorns are a possibility); in practice it’s an abysmal failure. A woman, if asked, will always say she wants a man “who respects her need to take it slow”, but in reality, where her words meet the unstoppable force of her tingles, a chivalrous gentleman’s pose is the equivalent of downselling: “Sure, this smartphone looks fast and functional, but it actually has parts made from Fisher Price toys. Try this cheapskate badboy clamshell over here instead.”
No, dude, the problem isn’t that this guy is being too “nice.” The problem is that he’s creeping out a random woman because he refuses to accept that she’s not interested in him.
The trouble with a lot of so-called “Nice Guys” isn’t that they don’t understand when a woman has rejected them — our creepy Romeo in the screenshots here was aware that he was probably “bothering” her only a few messages in. It’s that they refuse to accept these clear if implicit “no’s” as real” no’s.” Because, on some level, no matter how lonely and desperate and “ünterbeta” they may feel, they still feel entitled to sex with a “pretty lady.”
I rather doubt that many “Nice Guys” show up for work at companies that have interviewed them and hired someone else. The solution isn’t for these guys to learn “game”; it’s for them to learn to respect a “pretty lady’s” no as they would anyone else’s.
That too. It’s not fair to expect a woman who’s being subjected to behavior that ignores her boundaries to figure out, via Facebook, whether the guy who’s doing it is doing it because he’s on the spectrum or because he just doesn’t care if he’s making her uncomfortable. Why is the assumption here that it’s up to women to learn to swallow their discomfort rather than that it’s up to guys who’re on the spectrum to figure out that no reply at all for more than a week or two means “leave me alone”?
Also, to reiterate, guys do this ALL THE TIME. I really don’t think it’s reasonable to assume that every man who acts like this is on the spectrum – a lot of people act like this because society tells them that women’s boundaries don’t matter and that if a woman rejects you then you should just keep trying. It’s the Say Anything problem – movies present as endearing and romantic behavior that feels really creepy and invasive when you’re on the receiving end.
Because we have to be niiice or teh menz fee-fees will be hurt!
Even when someone’s not intentionally saying that, we’ve been so socialised that way it’s usually lurking somewhere in unconscious assumptions.
Plus, how many times have we seen people who are on the spectrum point out that they don’t want to do this, and try damned hard to learn the cues and social behaviour they need, specifically because they don’t want to creep people out (and for their own protection, I’m guessing)? Lots of times, that’s how many. This guy’s being clueless at the very best, and is a creeper (and a pretty pathetic, contemptible one) at worst.
Maria, your story is really awful… I am sorry you had to go through with something like that. My girlfriends and I had once a similar experience with some very annoying dudes and we had to be quite aggressive to have them leave us alone. We were, of course, “bitches” according to them. We had to change bars… quite annoying. But your story is worse. 🙁
I would like to share a story that turned out completely different and I often think about it when this subject comes up.
Some friends and I were once again in a bar; two girlfriends, me and a guy friend. The guy friend and one girl went to the bar to get some drinks. While my other friend and I were seated, we had a moment of silence in our chat and the dudes next to us said “excuse me” and a polite hello and asked where we were from (we were speaking English in a non-English speaking country in Northern Europe). They were polite and remained where they were seated in order to talk to us, which now thinking about it, was one of the factors that made us respond. When our friends were back the dudes also started chatting with our male friend and we just joined both tables and started this really nice conversation. Although not clear, it is likely that one of them might have been initially interested in one of us. However, they were not at all pushy, were very friendly, polite and actually had something to say.
They were also very friendly towards our guy friend and were not annoyingly flirty at all. It was also quite clear that if we did not welcome their conversation, that they would just mind their business.
This, to me, shows that being respectful about boundaries and being honestly polite (not NiceGuy™ “polite”) does not “destroy human interaction” like so many people enjoy arguing when one talks about harassment situations between strangers. No, it does not destroy any interaction, it improves them. Of course one can talk to strangers, but never with entitlement and never being creepy and with respect. Always respect.
To put this in perspective, the last guy who acted like this towards me was a cop. Met him randomly in a realtor’s office, exchanged numbers because we were both looking for apartments and were supposedly going to share info about places that might work for me but not for him and vice versa, and then he kept asking me out after I clearly told him I wasn’t interested, randomly text messaging me to say he saw me walking around and I was looking hot in that (whatever I had been wearing), and would I like to go with him to a show even though I said no the last 5 times, and this went on for over 2 years. Telling him I wasn’t interested didn’t get him to stop, ignoring him didn’t get him to stop. He wasn’t on the spectrum, he was just a pushy asshole.
(Normally I would at that point get a lot more verbally aggressive, but with a cop? Not a good idea.)
Agreed – it’s not her problem. And I certainly don’t think the guy should get any sort of a pass if he keeps harassing her after she’s made it clear that she doesn’t want to hear from him.
I’m just saying that this particular behaviour – not taking 3 months of silence as a hint to give up and go away – may be a fundamental social interaction problem rather than the ‘stalking’ of a man who knows they’re unwanted and doesn’t care. I think even most of the ‘persistent nice guy’ types would have given up unless they had more feedback than 3 months of silence.
And you’ll notice he never blames her or calls her a bitch for ignoring him, like most of the guys you’re comparing him to would.
*never being creepy and without respect. Always have respect.
damm!! >__<
Now that’s a good story to hear, pineapplecookies!
Psychotic Girl – it doesn’t really matter in the end if he has a fundamental problem, though, does it? You agree it’s not her problem to fix, and that he shouldn’t get a pass; it still comes down to him needing to stop.
If someone was doing that to me (actually I’d have blocked him immediately) I wouldn’t give a flying fuck if he had some problem or not; I’d be angry, irritated and possibly scared, if he was in the same city.
Yep. The issue is that the behavior is not OK. The reasons for it (there can be many) don’t really matter – the issue is the behavior, which needs to stop. Pointing out that this behavior is not acceptable should in theory actually be helpful to people who’re on the spectrum, since they tend to be good at following rules once they know what those rules are. So how is a post saying “the social rule is, don’t do this” a bad thing?
And note that the cop in my example was equally passive-aggressive in his approach a lot of the time. Adding “sorry” to your harassment doesn’t mean that you’re on the spectrum.
I find constant “sorries” irritating themselves, even in other situations. My first reaction to this post was STOP APOLOGISING (and fuck off).
Also I think I’d read it a bit differently without the suggestions that the woman should “come over”. That a lot more aggressive than just asking someone out for coffee or whatever, that’s a straight-up request for a booty call couched in passive language.
(Also really arrogant. Seriously, not only are you assuming that a woman should go out with you, you’re expecting her to function as a free sex delivery service where the product she’s delivering is herself? Presumptuous much?)
Yes, and that reminds me – the “I won’t take advantage” line? Now I don’t automatically read that as someone who has thought of rape, even in passing; speaking generallly I can see it as someone who’s aware that’s the risk women have to assess, even if it’s a lousy way of mentioning it.
BUT – back to the point – does that comment really sound like someone who doesn’t know about social behaviour or cues or whatever? It doesn’t to me.
Nothing wrong with saying it’s unacceptable. But it pushes my buttons a bit if you immediately associate it with stalkers and serial killers. After all, when people think ‘psychotic’, they always go to Hitchcock’s ‘Psycho’ rather than lovable James Stewart in ‘Harvey’ or genius John Nash in ‘A Beautiful Mind’.
It’s a problem to associate abnormal behaviour and mental issues with ‘argh! Threatening serial killer psycho-ness!’ is all I’m saying. But that’s a separate issue from whether women should have to put up with harassment.
As long as he didn’t keep bothering her after she told him not to, as long as he didn’t blame her for not choosing to hang out with him, I’d put him in a different category from the majority of the man-o-sphere douche-weeds.
I don’t know how much of this blog you read, Psychotic Girl, but the standpoint here is that we don’t automatically associate bad behaviour with mental illness. You brought up the “he must be on the spectrum” line, which if anything is the ableist viewpoint. We’re not saying mentally ill = serial killers or anything else (plenty of regulars here have been through mental illness). We’re saying asshole behaviour is asshole behaviour and needs to stop, and btw it’s not women’s job to mollycoddle men.
The ‘I won’t take advantage’ line sounds exactly like someone who doesn’t understand social cues – i.e. theoretically understands the risks women face, but puts it in a blunt and ‘lousy’ (as you put it) way, that immediately makes the woman imagine him trying to rape her (as David points out).
The problem is that as a woman on the receiving end there’s no way to know if the man acting like this is clueless or if they mean you harm. I don’t think it’s fair to shift the burden of dealing with the issue of how men on the spectrum handle the problems they have managing social interactions onto the woman who their behavior is making uncomfortable. The underlying dynamic at work there is very sexist – women as caretakers who dispense sympathy and understanding even if it’s at their own expense.
(This whole issue was also already talked out in great detail on a thread at Shapely Prose, wish I could remember which one, it was around the time of the Schrodinger’s Rapist post but possibly not that actual post.)
The fact that the “I won’t hurt you” line is so common – as is this whole harassment scenario (ffs, it went on for MONTHS) – is what makes it sound very un-spectrum to me.
Plus, if he is on the spectrum and has managed to pick up that cue, I’m even less impressed that he hasn’t picked up the other basics that go with it.
This is still coming across as making excuses for him.
Relevant: http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2013/01/24/he-might-be-on-the-spectrum-but-what-about-me/
The “I won’t hurt you” line is so common that it’s mentioned in The Gift Of Fear.
Thanks for that link, Ally – that’s one hell of a post. Sheelzebub says it so well.
Technically I said ‘seems to be’. I don’t know, is it more ableist to consider the possibility that someone has a disability that may account for aspects of their behaviour, or not to consider it?
And I’m in no way arguing that the woman had a responsibility to caretake for the guy, just that the way we talk about him shouldn’t necessarily send a message about ‘the persistence of a serial killer’, when it would be enough to simply condemn the behaviour itself. There is a stereotype invoked there about abnormal behaviour and threat.
Yes, women shouldn’t have to mollycoddle or take the risk by ignoring their gift of fear and making excuses, but we don’t have to assume creeperness either, especially as uninvolved bystanders.