Men’s Rightsers and Pickup Artists alike are obsessed with the dilemma of the so-called “Nice Guy” who can’t get laid. MRAs see his plight as a symptom of a gynocratic society in which fickle, asshole-loving women are the gatekeepers of sex; PUAs see it as a sign that beta males need to learn how to imitate the vaguely aloof swagger of the natural alpha male.
And both MRAs and PUAs completely miss the point.
To see just how badly they do, let’s take a look at a recent post from the sadly influential PUA shitbag Heartiste, who uses an alleged Facebook screencap of uncertain provenance as a springboard for a diatribe against the “desperate male,” that is, the “desperate, clingy ünterbeta male” who pursues a woman, often in a weirdly apologetic, even abject way, long after she’s made it clear she has no interest in him.
But Heartiste’s example, as you’ll quickly notice, isn’t exactly a textbook case of so-called “friendzoning.” (I’ve blotted out the dude’s face; Heartiste didn’t bother.)
Be warned: it’s a teensy bit long.
Yeah, so I’m thinking that the problem isn’t so much that the dude here is “too beta” as that he’s “a creepy stalker with no sense of boundaries and the obsessive persistence of a serial killer.” It’s not even clear why he’s developed this fixation on her. He says nothing to suggest he knows anything about her other than that she’s a “pretty lady,” and she doesn’t remember ever even meeting him.
Heartiste, naturally, takes him to task not for his creepery but for violating “just about every Poon Commandment” — that is, Heartiste’s set of “alpha male” rules for getting, well, “poon.”
He also notes the fellow’s repeated promises to not “take advantage” of her if she comes over to his place. Generally speaking, when someone casually promises not to rape you on your first date, and presents this as if it’s somehow a generous gesture on their part, it’s pretty much the opposite of reassuring, as it sort of suggests that they were at least considering it as a possibility.
But Heartiste sees it as an example of excessive chivalry:
Any man who thinks promising a woman that he “won’t take advantage of her” is the way to her heart is a power tool. Chivalry works in the abstract (specifically that abstract where unicorns are a possibility); in practice it’s an abysmal failure. A woman, if asked, will always say she wants a man “who respects her need to take it slow”, but in reality, where her words meet the unstoppable force of her tingles, a chivalrous gentleman’s pose is the equivalent of downselling: “Sure, this smartphone looks fast and functional, but it actually has parts made from Fisher Price toys. Try this cheapskate badboy clamshell over here instead.”
No, dude, the problem isn’t that this guy is being too “nice.” The problem is that he’s creeping out a random woman because he refuses to accept that she’s not interested in him.
The trouble with a lot of so-called “Nice Guys” isn’t that they don’t understand when a woman has rejected them — our creepy Romeo in the screenshots here was aware that he was probably “bothering” her only a few messages in. It’s that they refuse to accept these clear if implicit “no’s” as real” no’s.” Because, on some level, no matter how lonely and desperate and “ünterbeta” they may feel, they still feel entitled to sex with a “pretty lady.”
I rather doubt that many “Nice Guys” show up for work at companies that have interviewed them and hired someone else. The solution isn’t for these guys to learn “game”; it’s for them to learn to respect a “pretty lady’s” no as they would anyone else’s.
I have several Facebook private message/convos that actually look exactly like this :/ I don’t draw the same conclusions from it, but I can definitely confirm that this type of text exchange happens. If the screenshots have edited out the woman’s response in these specific images is beside the fact that the conversation does look typical.
God I wish this asshole would stop writing.
The FB dude sounds like a clueless creep.
Ew. That is all.
I’ve had a few guys like this on OKCupid, they keep sending message after message despite no response. It’s really creepy and I don’t understand why they keep it up.
Boring stalker is boring. Also a stalker. No wonder she put the deep freeze on his “chill” plans.
If only facebook creeper would start creeping on Fartiste. They deserve each other.
Ewwwww jeez. He probably didn’t even know her from anywhere, just added her because he was attracted to her and they live in the same place.
Also, Wiedmann’s clueless “advice” is clueless. I’m guessing he does not, in fact, “get any”.
So basically he thinks that if creeper’s first message had been SUCK MY COCK, BITCH the uninterested target would have gotten horny and run right over?
LOL.
A friend of mine just sent me this. Made me smile a little. Sorry it’s not Furrinati though.
Gah. I just kept going “nope, nope, nope, oh god.” the entire time.
Seriously, he first messages her on 9/8, gets essentially no responses, despite messaging her almost every day for nearly *3 MONTHS*, and somehow kept going? It took him about 3 months to even do the stupid “hey, can you at least tell me “no”?” thing. (Note to anyone new to online dating/flirting: No response for more than a week? That’s a no, unless *they* get back to *you*.)
I’m reminded of my first OKCupid foray, where I ended up blocking this one guy because he would message me within 30 seconds of my logging in, every single time I logged in. For about a month.
So I came across this blog a few weeks ago, and there are still some terms that I don’t really understand. For example, “Alpha Asshole Cock Carousel”- what does that mean?
O.K I’m a woman . And there is nothing relating to chivalry when a guy follows you around apologizing for bothering you while its clear he’s bothering you .
And if that is the example of “nice guy” beta and being too chivalrist then what is alpha ?
Do they think every girl on earth is playing hard to get ? Is that it ?
Do they want women to from the beginning to just tell the guy to fuck off ?(clearly while they have their finger on 9-1-1 ?) No because that would be misandry .
Alice: Nice. Nicely done, everyone in that thread.
Miri, this is from the Man Boobz FAQ:
Obsession .
Thank you Ally.
Guys like this are so common on social media sites, and ime telling them to get lost more directly a. just leads to a tantrum with lots of swearing and b doesn’t necessarily stop the behavior. Sometimes they scream at you about what a bitch you are and then send you another “so, wanna come over?” message the next day.
Which is why I now block anyone who starts acting like that right from the beginning.
Letting them down easy (ignoring them) is playing hard to get . Saying “get away from me now never contact me again ” is being a fucking bitch you’re evil “
katz – I laughed at the “if it were a legitimate inferno, the male body has ways to shut it all down”. Priceless.
Alice, that thread was brilliant. 😀
Every time I never told a guy to point blank leave me alone was an invitation for them to keep harassing me . When I point blank said I’m not interested then I was laughed at and called “highly confused ” (they weren’t serious ) and an arrogant bitch .
The first time I met someone who had a crush on me was this one person I met at a trans women support group I used to go to. I gave her my number because she seemed like she would be a nice friend. And I thought she just wanted to befriend me. But after a barrage of texts like “Hey I think you’re really cute and I want to go out with you =)” and “Let’s transition together!” I realized she had a crush on me. By that point I lost interest in being her friend because she wasn’t respecting my boundaries at all – even after I politely told her I wasn’t interested in dating at the time. I lament the fact that the first time someone was ever into me also happened to be another instance of harassment. V_V
I showed my mom that… “chat”; her eyes popped. The benefit of not being active online, I suppose. 😡
On an unrelated note, “ünterbeta”? He can’t even spell his own ridiculous terms properly.
Fun fact! The only times men have ever called me a slut it’s been because I refused to have sex with them.
Logic, what’s that?