Men’s Rights hate site A Voice for Men has not exactly shown much of an interest in trans* issues in the past. Indeed, the only time I can recall founder Paul Elam ever even mentioning trans* people was in the context of a vicious attack on a Men’s Studies expert who happens to be a trans woman; he suggested she was a mentally ill man-hater whose “so hated the sex they were born with that it sparked a life long academic quest to deconstruct it into something that did not disgust them.”
So it’s a little surprising to see a post on AVFM now with the seemingly dispassionate, slightly turgid, title “Male/female discrepancies in transsexualism.” The post starts out as dry as its title, but it soon becomes clear that it is “scientific” in style only. It’s not an attempt to understand trans women or trans people in general; it’s an attempt to use the existence of trans women as a helpful prop in an old Men’s Rights argument.
After declaring that “the inherent,prenatal explanations for transsexualism are highly questionable” — without actually examining any of these explanations beyond mentioning one study — Jesse Folsom offers his own crackpot theory to explain why, in his words, there are more “male-to-female [than] female-to-male transsexuals.”
In short, he asserts, our society is so biased against boys and men that a lot of boys and men have decided that they want to become girls and women. And naturally, feminists are largely to blame.
[W]hy would a young boy associate more with the stereotypes assigned to girls? Well, one good reason would be because he wants to, because he regards his stereotypes of women as superior. For instance, in a feminist household, expressions of masculinity may be viewed with derision, or, when there is a father present, as a source of shame.
Also, in case you hadn’t realized this, most mothers are women as well:
Even without such associations, however, a child often just spends more time with his or her mother.
Oh, and so are teachers. It’s like there’s some sort of plot!
While it does not occur until after a large proportion of gender ideas are formed, school also exposes children, primarily, to female role models. Not to mention the fact that many behaviors typical of boys are frowned upon and even drugged out of them in modern school environments.
As a result, young boys have no real role models in society.
And where do boys find themselves today? Today, women can be anything they want. Women can be action heroes, happy homemakers, corporate executives, and powerful politicians.
Obviously there are no examples of men in any of these roles for boys to look up to.
There are two categories of fashion, fashion for everyone and fashion for women only. Women are the ones seen as beautiful and glamorous. Women are kind, gentle, empathetic, and allowed to freely express emotion. With the traditional strengths of men now seen as irrelevant or even negative, why wouldn’t a boy rather be a girl? Is this not as good an explanation as any for the discrepancies between MtF and FtM transsexualism?
Well, actually, no. But Folsom continues, insinuating that this evil feministy brainwashing does terrible damage to all the poor little boys who have decided that they want to be girls:
It is simply implausible that a child that associates with the opposite sex label has any real understanding of what that means, but unfortunately, such associations often stick. Further, this gender dysphoria is extremely harmful, frequently leading to severe depression and high suicide and poverty rates for transsexuals. As one might expect, researchers believe that male-to-female transsexuals are the hardest-hit by these problems.
Aside from all the general bullshittery of Folsom’s not-very-original theory here, it’s telling that he never refers to trans women as, well, women, preferring instead to refer to them either as male-to-female transsexuals — or to actually refer to them as male. Like Elam, clearly doesn’t see trans women as real women, but rather as men suffering from some sort of delusion, driven by internalized misandry.
And that’s really the only way that AVFM can have any sympathy for trans women at all: if they’re seen as male victims of feminism, and not as women at all.
Regular Man Boobz commenter Ally S ventured into the Men’s Rights subreddit to offer a rather more nuanced view of the subject. Some highlights:
This article is almost exactly like countless articles written by trans-exclusionary radical feminists. The only real difference is that the arguments are being used to further support MRA talking points rather than TERF talking points. …
When I was little, I didn’t identify as a girl because I associated more with femininity and stereotypes about girls. It was the other way around: I came to associate more with femininity and stereotypes about girls because I identified as a girl. Just as cis girls associate with stereotypes related to their own gender. …
I guarantee that virtually any trans woman will say that adherence to stereotypes and misandry have nothing to do with identifying as female. That’s because there’s a difference between gender identity and gender expression. Personally, I am a trans woman, but my clothing style is basically agender and I engage in what are often considered masculine activities, such as programming. And when I was a child, I actually saw feminine traits as inferior, not superior – yet I still identified as a girl. I have many friends who have had similar experiences. …
Lastly, deliberately misgendering trans women (you know, what the author does in every other sentence) is completely unacceptable, even if one is speaking about young children. We are not and never will be men.
You can see Ally’s entire comment here, as well as a number of detailed followups. Amazingly, they actually got upvotes in the Men’s Rights subreddit, where Folsom’s article received a generally hostile reception. Apparently some of AVFM’s bullshit is so bullshitty that even Men’s Rights Redditors can recognize it as such.
david futrelle 4 president.
furrinati party 4 lyfe
Whether those explanations are questionable or not is irrelevant, when the “questioning” is being done by an asswipe who knows fuck-all about science or anything else.
“There are two categories of fashion, fashion for everyone and fashion for women only.”
DUDE WHERE ARE ALL THE GENDERQUEER CLOTHES???
I’m a trans woman and I want to say thank you to Ally S, I’ve had to deal with the good, the bad, and the just plain ugly, and reading her story really helps.
I thought is was women that had penis envy ? I thought that male was what women want to be to be the gold standard ? I’m so disillusioned at this switch in thinking I don’t know what I’m going to do . I already cut my hair short and started wearing pants!
Yes, I wonder how they explain trans*men at all? Women wannabes who recognise the Innate Superiority of Teh Menz, perhaps?
Maybe his mind’s stuck in that brief period in the 70s when there was some unisex fashion.
He’d be more up to date than most MRAs, in that case.
Maybe a boy (cis /or trans) as well as girls (cis /or tans) would like to be allowed to have the FULL range of human emotions not limited to a ‘gender ” ASSSSSSSSS HOLE!!!???????
This is about boys . And how boys from an early age are pounded by ideas along the likes of the infamous Phil whats his face..This has nothing to do with trans men but in general how boys are stifled.
MRA hate this !
http://www.policymic.com/articles/54105/the-one-thing-all-men-feel-but-never-admit
This, in buckets. Learning to see through, and eventually overcoming the stereotypical programming is a job and a half for all women and girls, whether cis like me, or trans like Ally. Our gender may be inherent, but gender roles are socially constructed — and as such, can be socially deconstructed, too.
Of course, let’s not look for any help from MRAs on that front. Their poor comprehension of gender issues alone makes them worse than useless there. The only time they address transgender and gender-role issues at all, it invariably winds up being a self-serving hoorah for masculism.
Apropos self-serving hoorahs:
Interesting choice of words there. When I walk into a department store clothing section, I don’t see “Women’s Fashion” and “Fashion for Everyone”, I see departments labelled either Women’s or Men’s Fashion. No Unisex, and certainly no “Everyone”. The fact that the author deliberately excluded “women only” from “everyone” is an interesting slip-up; it reveals that he only thinks of men, and specifically cis men, as persons, and anyone else as Other.
“Even without such associations, however, a child often just spends more time with his or her mother.”
A child spending time with his or her mother? OMG! Who ever heard of such a thing? How unnatural! Someone call the police!
Right so aside from everything else…I was under the oppression that the number of people who are trans men and the number of people who are trans women are roughly similar? – Not that that really has some significant meaning…but it does kind of invalidate the “fact” he bases his whole post on.
Wow, Ally, you are brave. And articulate.
Argenti’s train of thought:
“Men in dresses” — yes please
The rest of the title — argh, really?
Part way through — same old, same old, wonder if he’ll get to more likely reasons and toxic masculity
“There are two categories of fashion, fashion for everyone and fashion for women only. ” — hey, maybe he’ll touch on actual reasons!
Rest of quote — apparently not
“Further, this gender dysphoria is extremely harmful, frequently leading to severe depression and high suicide and poverty rates for transsexuals.” — why yes, it is, which is why embracing your actual gender is a good thing (oh and no, dyshoria doesn’t lead to poverty, transphobia does)
Get to Ally’s comment in the OP — oh hey, she didn’t get down voted in oblivion, awesome
“DUDE WHERE ARE ALL THE GENDERQUEER CLOTHES???” — when you find them, let me know?
Kitteh — trans* men, you ciswoman you! 😛
Ok, actual response time. First off, the rates of MtF versus FtM trans* people are almost always based on official doctor’s records, and you need a psych eval (at least in the US) for MtF bottom surgery, whereas FtM top surgery doesn’t require that and is far less often recorded as trans* related. Second, despite having just used the terms, MtF and FtM aren’t really preferred due to the weight placed on “before gender” when trans* women were always women (well, except when they were girls, but still, point stands). Three, men in dresses stand out way more than women in unisex or men’s clothing — totally transphobic to call trans* women men in dresses, but even cis men in skirts (I’m looking at your kilts pecunium 🙂 ) stand out in a way that people assigned female at birth, but not dressing in women’s fashion, just don’t.
So yes, the way society highlights and separates things as “for women” does play a role in why you see more trans* women — trans* men may be assumed to be butch women! or not noticed at all, while people get all confused when they see a skirt and an adam’s apple (pecunium has some funny stories of being misgendered btw)
Regarding dysphoria, it’s story time. I spent, oh, two decades, all a mental mess over my gender. Cuz I’d do a pretty much annual debate whether I wanted to transition since I don’t ID as the gender assigned shortly after birth (my mother’s OB/GYN actually said “it’s a keeper!” I guess he was as exhausted as she was after her looooong labor and his last minute forceps before he’d let her be sectioned…in any case, I was technically assigned the gender of fish at birth, fitting eh?). Well, then my pharm student explained this concept known as “genderqueer” and I was all “wait, I don’t have to decide?! YOU’RE AWESOME!” And since then have settled in nicely to the idea that I can identify as neither make nor female and that’s fucking okay. Now, I’m not gonna pretend this magically negates my desire for a surgery or two, but I can be all “you’re useless you know?” to my anatomy without my brain spinning into “but what does that mean since I don’t really want to be the ‘other’ gender?!?!”
/story time
As for poverty, yeah, that one is all transphobia. Having to out yourself if your legal // current name isn’t what your references know you as, shit like that.
In short, exactly none of this is in any way related to either penis envy or misandry. Also, I like men in skirts. But that’s not socially acceptable, cuz toxic masculinity. So, you know, they could be fighting that, since that’s an actual problem faced by trans* people and cis men who like skirts (and dresses, and other “female” things)
Yeah, I think Ally hit the nail on the head when she talked about gender role socialization: the identification came first, then I adjusted myself to it. I remember feeling… awkward and naughty when I watched television shows that were geared toward boys, even though looking back I think I really would have enjoyed them (given that I watched X-Men: Evolution and Gargoyles in high-school and college, I think I would have loved them more as a little girl). BECAUSE THEY WERE FOR BOYS. So watching them as a girl was wrong. I can only imagine the extra layer of mind-fuckery that goes on for trans people during gender-role socialization.
Once I was older, I could think through gender roles better, and also it became more acceptable for girls/women to be interested in geek things–though obviously not completely. I bought my first comic book (Runaways) in high school.
And yes, the fact that women have more leeway for “masculine” interests than men have for “feminine” ones (a) is rooted is misogyny/femmephobia and (b) somehow I think MRAs would solve it by banning women from “masculine” interests rather than by supporting men/boys who want to do “feminine” activities.
Long post is long, sorry.
Argenti,
Long post is awesome.
One can only suppose these internet warriors have never heard of men’s outfitters … you know, obscure little places like Saville Row.
It never ceases to amaze me how MRAs endlessly claim to be Vulcan-like keepers of science, rational thought and Western Civilization, all while posting brutal, pseudoscientific pifflery like this “explanation”.
Hey, bro, not every idea that pops into your head is scientific fact, historical truth, philosophical wisdom and/or world-shaking revelation.
Argenti, I blame any typos on being distracted by Michael Schumacher’s accident. Not joking, either.
So sorry for the double post, but I realize that you are the best place for talking here.
I have four first cousins, and the youngest has been a huge tomboy since she* could express desires. We don’t see them often, but I saw them a couple times over Christmas, and she just looked… sad.
Now, there are several different reasons she could be sad–I don’t think her family would be that supportive of her if she was queer or trans* or genderqueer (I have heard some pretty transphobic BS from one of her sisters, and the family isn’t all that supportive in general). On the other hand, she could be a cis and straight tomboy and unhappy for other reasons.
Is there anything I can do to let her know that we’d be supportive, whatever is going on? I’d like to help more, but I have no idea what the problem is.
*I’m using that because she ID’s as female for now, but I have wondered for years.
@kittehserf
I always thought the US store chain Men’s Warehouse sold men’s fashions, but after reading this post I realize they must be selling derision and shame.
When I was little, I played with dolls (mainly because my parents told me boys aren’t supposed to, but they could never give a logical explanation for why) and wanted to wear make-up because I thought it would be fun to choose what colors to put on your face. Never identified as female, though. This was in Russia in the 70’s, not exactly an environment that questioned traditonal gender roles.
Gents’ tailors are misandry!
I gotta add, my mother is awesome about the whole gender role thing. Like, the only reason to out myself to her would be pronouns, but she’d never learn them anyways so whatever. Since I was a wee little thing she’s been just fine with me doing whatever the fuck I wanted as long as it was safe and not against actual logical rules (my father is another story, but his bullshit rules were rarely gender related).
To the point we were talking recently and she flat out agreed I’d have been a miserable kid if I’d had gender roles pushed on me. So I got my carebears and my gargoyles (and thundercats! I still have a small thundercats picture hanging up in here)
Consider this my whole hearted endorsement of letting kids play with whatever toys they like, watch what they want, etc, as long as it’s safe and age/maturity level appropriate, not whether it’s “gender appropriate”!
Wordsp1nner — thanks, I posted that and went “holy fuck that’s long!” Glad to hear that it isn’t just me babbling, since I babble well and often!