Oh, Men’s Rightsers, can you just make up your minds? Only a couple of days after blaming trolls for the spamming of Occidental College’s rape reporting site with false accusations, rather than acknowledging it as the work of Men’s Rightsers in his own subreddit who were proudly encouraging and taking credit for it themselves, Men’s Rights subreddit mod sillymod is now defending the false rape reporting as “unpopular” but thought-provoking activism.
![sillymod 6 points 7 hours ago (13|7) First you have to believe that we did something wrong in order to want to get our reputation back. Sometimes people fighting for a cause are going to do something that is unpopular in order to make a statement. I don't think we do need to get our reputation back. I think the act stands for itself, and it will get people to stop and think. permalink source save give gold hide child comments [–]TheIdesOfLight [+20] 15 points 4 hours ago (22|7) So I guess that whole "We were trolled"/"It was SRS!" bullshit is off the table? You can't pass the buck and convince yourselves everyone else is guilty but you and now it's become an act of bravery? Wow. Yeah, watching you flip flop on this for the past three days has been both alarming and rewarding. You didn't make any kind of statement, Sillymod. The entire internet and media is sneering at you and you still can't just say WE DID A TERRIBLE THING. PERHAPS WE SHOULD REFLECT ON IT AS A WHOLE. permalink source save parent give gold [–]ninioquiroz 6 points 3 hours ago (12|6) No, because that would require a level of maturity and self-awareness that this "movement" clearly lacks. But, does anybody else think feminists are to blame for all the world's problems?](https://i0.wp.com/www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/sillymod2.png?resize=493%2C520&ssl=1)
This whole exchange is worth reading — it continues on for a number of comments beyond this, with sillymod’s rationalizations becoming increasingly baroque. It’s extremely rare to see critical remarks like those from TheIdesOfLight actually get upvoted in the Men’s Rights subreddit. The Occidental College fiasco has divided the Men’s Rights subreddit like nothing I’ve ever seen before. Some are appalled by it; others are digging in their heels.
Speaking of which, here’s former subreddit mod Celda defending the false rape reports in much more straightforward terms than sillymod:
![Celda [-1] 5 points 18 hours ago (9|4) I agree that the subreddit deserves some responsibility for that. But - there was nothing wrong with those actions. I saw the news articles in which it says they were spammed with hundreds of reports, of being raped by fictional characters, accusing the staff of the Dean's Office (the form is run by the Dean's Office), etc. Those reports are non-harmful - and the goal of shutting down the online form is quite a laudable one. I am actually quite disgusted by the number of people who are defending the existence of an anonymous online form intended for reporting people as rapists.](https://i0.wp.com/www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/celda.png?resize=521%2C231&ssl=1)
Elsewhere, Celda has called the false reporting “quite moral and laudable.”
Thanks to the AgainstMensRights subreddit — which, again, is not actually against rights for men, but against the reactionary clusterfuck that is the Men’s Rights movement — for keeping close track on all this.
@cloudiah
I love the photo of GWW lecturing a room of empty chairs at a US university, but I can’t find that old post. Hopefully the turnout in Toronto will be equally underwhelming, but if all the Canadian MRAs show up out of solidarity her audience could hit 25+. It definitely will be EPIC.
I find that with this community it really pays off to give yourself a couple of minutes re-reading your comments before sending them off and being aware of who the regulars are, what’s going on with them and what the general ethos of the group is. Ableism, racism, transphobia and sexism aren’t acceptible, especially in this group (except for new posters who don’t know us yet). They shouldn’t be acceptible anywhere but we can’t control “everywhere”, we can only control our own spaces and make them as safe as possible, given the subject matter. I’ve seen this group be very supportive, even of trolls if they start to talk to us like they consider us human beings and open up a little. We all slip up sometimes and if called on it I prefer to lean, rather than rationalize.
We don’t always succeed, slip ups happen but we do try.
Ally S said:
“I think people should be careful in comparing certain groups to cults. It’s disrespectful to cult victims to carelessly call some group/ideology/whatever cultish. I do think that such a comparison can be made without engaging in appropriation, but far too often I see people making comparisons to Jonestown and throwing around the word “cult” without any due consideration for people who have been actually harmed by cults.”
This.
The term “cult” has some specific meanings and implications and I don’t believe that anything online comes close. There simply isn’t sufficient control over people to warrant the term. My husband was a Moonie when I first met him and the amount of control they had over his life was terrifying, the isolation from non-Moonie people, the discouragement of any kind of independent thought, frowning on maintaining relationships with non-Moonie friends and family. And they were right. The moment he started at university (to study Korean history, culture and language) their grip weakened and he started making friends with other students and from that point on they started to lose him. Eventually he asked us to help him leave and “deprogram” him because he could see that nothing they taught him made any sense but the emotional ties he had to them would hold him there even if he didn’t believe a word of it.
“Cult” is not a word that should be tossed around lightly. People tend to use it for any religio/political movement with whom they disagree and use it in the same kind of way certain people use the word “nazi”. There is an element of control with cultic movements that simply can’t be replicated online.
Incidentally, just using the phrase “drink the coolaid” makes my blood run cold. With enough control it’s possible to make intelligent, well educated, capable people kill themselves just because their leader tells them too. It’s not a joking matter.
…I had no idea “Drink the Kool-Aid” referred to that. I always thought it was just “take what you’re given even if it’s just an artificially flavored sugar drink.” Well not say that again.
IdesOfLight is now my new favorite person at the moment. Seriously, it’s nice to see someone point out their cowardice. Plus, as others have already mentioned, they’re only being counterproductive since the form would’ve helped not only young women but also young men. What else do you expect from a group of people who care more about attacking their opponents with indiscriminate vitriol than doing anything helpful or beneficial for anyone other than themselves…?
Other than that: I generally don’t have an issue with calling a certain groups “cultish” – mostly because it is critical of an organization than the victims of it. Doesn’t necessarily mean the group is an actual cult as much as exhibit cult-like attitudes and behavior. As Robert Ramirez said – both the MRM and Libertarians/Objectivists seem to display such; they demonize any independent thought that in any way contradicts that of their leader(s), people who openly show that independent thought are ostracized by the group, the group rejects any information and data that do not coincide with their ideals and often create their own in order to glorify it, and subsequently project their own negative qualities onto outside groups they dislike. Being familiar enough with the two aforementioned groups – they have that in spades.
I do however agree that, like “Nazi”, it shouldn’t be thrown around without consideration. If you do use it – at least do so if it is relevant and not just as a convenient insult.
:: waves at saintnick86 ::
Perhaps I should add that the “cultish” designation also comes from the fact the groups approach their ideology with an almost religious fervor.
I suppose the same can be said of political parties – but that’s more tribalistic in nature than anything. A single Democrat can interact with other Republicans nor agree with every part of the Democratic platform, without being told they can’t do such or that they couldn’t be Democrats anymore. There’s certainly a lot of manipulation in terms of the language politicians use, but that is usually to gain popularity with constituents than directly control a person’s life both inside and outside.
???
Oh, I just waved since I haven’t seen you around here in a while. Other folks here do the same thing all the time.
Ah, alright – cool. Dunno why I didn’t get that (I’m weird like that 😛 )…
I did commented on another post some time back but, yeah, I haven’t been on here like I used to.
Hi again –
Thank you for your replies. You are right. I hadn’t realized this – but my comment could be taken as victim-blaming, or telling the victim to “shut up”. Never, in an infinity of years, would I want anyone to feel that way, especially from something that I said, so please forgive me.
And Ophelia especially – thank you for the kind words.
I think a lot of people are forgetting the charismatic leader part of how cults work. The only MRA hub that really fits that description is AVFM, and even there it’s more a matter of Elam seeming to want that than it actually happening. He sure seems like he’d love to have that much control over his followers, but I don’t think that he does.
But yeah, from the perspective of anyone who’s had to deal with an actual cult it does seem a bit insensitive to compare a group that encourages its members to believe asinine things and troll people on the internet to groups that often leave their members broke, completely socially isolated, and possibly dead.
@Rahu: Welcome. And yes, one does need to be rather extra careful around here about what one says or how one phrases things on this site, because if one wrong move is made, what you end up posting can end up coming across as something rather different than what you actually meant…..I had to learn the latter the hard way just recently(just so you know that you are not alone).
And also, don’t worry about that first post. We all make mistakes. =)
@saintnick86: And welcome back. =)
alternatesteve: you keep bringing that up, and it’s reading as kind of passive-aggressive.
@Hellkell: It was merely another piece of advice; this is the first time I’ve actually even *partly* referred to that particular thing, btw, and that was really only because it was relevant to the advice I was giving(that is, being more careful about what one says here than other places.). otherwise, it wouldn’t have been said. “Passive-aggressive”, it certainly wasn’t.
OK
“Now excuse me while I anonymously libel and defame Occidental, feminism, rape victims and women in general.”
Constantly going on about how super mega careful people need to be in commenting here because the mean meanies will be mean if you make one wrong move is unlikely to win friends and influence people. Just saying.
I guess we can add libel to the list of things these dudes don’t understand, along with freeze peach and censorship.
@Unimaginative: I didn’t see your particular comment until now, so I thought I’d comment on it:
“I’m going to disagree with you a little bit. I used to hang out a lot in a forum that was heavily moderated, and I had to be VERY careful when I commented there, and I fully expected to be chastised, often quite rudely, if I stepped out of bounds. I was careful there.
Here, I’m not careful, I’m thoughtful. I’ve started to pay attention to my use of ableist slurs, not because I’m More PC Than Thou, but now I know people here, and care about them, and I don’t want to hurt anyone through verbal laziness, or casual cruelty.
I’m not perfect, and I’ve fucked up and said hurtful and sometimes plain stupid things here, and I’ve been called out on them.
So I think it’s not about being extra careful how you phrase stuff, so much as pay attention when people call out what you’re saying, and be open to changing to a more compassionate and kind vernacular. Especially, don’t double-down on being an asshole.
Having thought about this, yeah, that does make sense, and I might as well be honest: I always do my best to be thoughtful, but my own biggest problem has mainly been that sometimes, I’m just not that good at really expressing myself. I’m not going to say that I haven’t made mistakes; I have, and there’s been times where I have had to walk back and apologize for stuff. It’s a problem I’ve been trying to overcome for years, and not without some setbacks. It’s not intended to be an excuse for the mistakes that have already occurred *here*, but I *do* mentionn this to provide a little background as to why I do mess up sometimes, because in quite a few(though not all) cases, this is the majority of the problem.
“The people here are very forgiving of ignorance and errors when displayed by people who show good faith. Show good faith.”
I’ve done my best to do just that, and it appears that most folks have been forgiving. So that’s a good sign, I think. =)
@Cassandra: Well, in any case, as I said, I really only brought the miscommunication incident just once, a few minutes ago, and I really wasn’t trying to accuse anybody of being outright mean at ay point. Sorry if I accidentally gave you that impression somehow.
Also, hellkell, I do apologize if I came across a little harshly in the last portion my reply to you. =(
@Cassandra: On a more related note:
“I guess we can add libel to the list of things these dudes don’t understand, along with freeze peach and censorship.”
I’ve noticed this with libertarians, too, btw, especially the Tea Party set. Do they not understand the concept of “My rights end where yours begin”, to paraphrase Oliver Wendell Holmes?
@ Steve
Nope, this is not the first time you’ve complained that people have to be super extra careful how they say things here.
@Cassandra: OK, I see, you were referring to the few comments I’ve made to new users in general. Now I get it. In any case, I really hadn’t *intended* for such to be complaining or anything else other than advice; though under the circumstances, I think I understand(hopefully) why you got the opposite impression, and I do apologize for that as well. Perhaps those certain little things I wrote, as well intentioned as they may have been, were better left unsaid…..