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A Voice for Men doubles down: how dishwashers, TV dinners, and marital rape laws are rendering women obsolete. Also, the apocalypse.

Not the apology that Clint Carpentier is looking for.
Not the apology that Clint Carpentier is looking for.

We met new A Voice for Men writer Clint Carpentier earlier this week, when we took a look at a recent post of his waxing nostalgic about the good old days before marital rape laws, when wives couldn’t say “no” to their husbands and expect the law to take this no any more seriously than a husband intent on rape.

In a second posting, he’s doubled down on the whole marital rape thing and incorporated into a vast and fantastical vision of the past and future of humankind that bears so little resemblance to reality that it’s worth quoting in detail as a sort of case study in Men Going Their Own Way delusions.

Carpentier, clearly a Man Going His Own Way From Reality, begins with a brief and erroneous survey of human prehistory that he seems to have picked up at the University of His Own Ass:

The concept of marriage is relatively new to the human species, but was based on the ancient contract emotionally agreed upon by our primitive ancestors when they discovered that due to their big brains, their offspring were born less mature by necessity than other, less intelligent species; this contract promoted the exchange of three C’s (cooking, cleaning, and copulation) from the female, and three P’s from the male (protection, provision, and progeny).

So not only is Carpentier returning to his notion that compulsory copulation is proper wifely duty, but he apparently thinks that the prehistoric “wife” sat around the cave all day eating neolithic bon bons while her husband marched off to hunt mammoths for her — or perhaps commuted by foot-powered car to his job as a Brontosaurus crane operator at Slate Rock and Gravel Company.

In fact, the notion that male hunters were the main providers in prehistoric society seems to have been little more than a projection of the patriarchal attitudes of older generations of anthropologists onto the past. As best as we can figure it today, prehistoric women were involved not only in extensive gathering but in hunting as well, probably providing the bulk of the calories in the prehistoric diet.

To Carpentier, apparently, it’s all gone to hell since our days in the caves. Today, he laments, “the legal system has been unabashedly twisting the ancient contract into something that amounts to slavery” for men, while giving women more benefits, including the ability to say no to sex, which Carpentier, as in his previous post, describes as a terrible hardship for men:

The responsibilities for women have been eliminated by technology and gender politics, while at the same time their contract benefits have  increased. On the whole what was once her responsibility, to copulate, has become whim and weapon. With a legal system in place which has been designed for her to exploit and abuse, it is becoming increasingly difficult to trust women enough to even associate with, never mind marry.

Yep, we’re now coming to the “I’m taking my ball and going home” part of Carpentier’s rant, a necessary part of any MGTOW manifesto worth its salt.

What women didn’t realize was that the very things which made their lives easier – be they appliances or conveniently boxed pre-made meals at the grocery store – simultaneously reduced the necessity for women.

Let’s let that sink in for a moment: because of washing machines and TV dinners, half of the human population is becoming obsolete.

Women have inadvertently been reduced to gestational incubators; everything else, men can take care of on their own.

But Carpentier is convinced that SCIENCE will soon find a way to create what he calls a “gestational beer keg” to enable men to make a little end-run around that traditional (cis) womanly function. All men will need is their eggs, and well, that won’t be a problem:

[M]ake no mistake, women will sell their eggs, and they’ll do it willingly, just as they sell their bodies … And with the advent of Vasagel, a male fertility inhibitor, which is safe, reversible, and lasts roughly ten years per shot, women will lose the stranglehold of procreation over men.

So, wait, do men want to be able to gestate babies in beer kegs, or do they want to avoid having kids altogether? To Carpentier it hardly seems to matter, as his main goal seems to be to say “I told you so” to women.

At this point Carpentier puts on his futurist cap and sets forth what he sees as two possible futures for humanity.

The first, and most obvious answer – and one I so dearly hope for – is women wake up, grow up, and take responsibility for their own life choices. Women are not children, and husbands are not their dads. A radical paradigm shift will have to happen before men begin to have trust in the ancient contract again. A burgeoning respect for the sex that created and continues to maintain the civilization women so blithely enjoy would be nice. Men have been working on it for five thousand years specifically for women. A little recognition would be appreciated.

WE HUNTED THE MAMMOTH TO FEED YOU!

And then he says the first positive thing about women I’ve seen him say:

This isn’t about misogyny. This is about disillusionment; we love women, we love their flustered approach to parallel parking, we love it… lift something heavy, or get something high down, we love their sense of helplessness, even when we know they’re not.

That’s right: the only thing he likes about women is what he imagines to be their general incompetence and their possibly feigned “sense of helplessness.”

You know what I love about MGTOWers? Their endless troubles with the basics of grammar. Diagram that last “sentence” of his. I dare you!

In any case, in this scenario, the only way women will be able to get themselves back in the good graces of the men they have wronged by, I guess, not wanting to be raped by their husbands, is for them to admit they were wrong and ask gently for forgiveness:

Men might not be willing to accept the ancient contract back, but we have an amazing capacity to forgive a guilty smile, just meet us halfway, we can work this out.

If women don’t return to men, humbled and ashamed, Carpentier predicts a rather more dramatic future. That is to say: THE APOCALYPSE.

It will start slow, with stores refusing service to those who don’t have the mark of the beast tattooed on their foreheads.

Sorry, wrong apocalypse:

The second thing I can see happening is MGTOW’s becoming criminalized. And here’s how it will happen: it’ll start with a single’s tax, applicable only to men, specifically men who live underneath the tax bracket.

Yeah, this will happen shortly after Congress passes the Monkeys Flying Out of My Butt Revenue Enhancement Opportunity Act of 2014.

Oh, but the Revelations of Clint Carpentier are just getting started. After taxing all the single men, the evil gynocracy will go after their sperm:

If Vasagel can’t be quashed at the FDA level, it will become highly taxed, or just made outright illegal; it’s unlikely anyone with a criminal record, however slight, will be allowed to get a Vasagel injection, on the fear that the doctor may well lose his practicing license. You’ll watch as your fathers, uncles, brothers, friends, get picked up one by one, for what will boil down to not manning up and doing their duty as “men.”

Dude, NO ONE — not even your poor abused socks — WANTS YOUR PRECIOUS BODILY FLUIDS.

But in Carpentier’s mind the evil gyno-governmental conspiracy to steal men’s sperm and make them all into involuntary daddies will ultimately bring everything crashing down:

You’ll feel the first shocks, as the infrastructure fails to maintain itself under the strain of invisible workers who have been imprisoned. You’ll watch as convicts are forced into slave labor to sustain the infrastructure. You’ll feel the crunch as taxes increase, then increase again, because no government seems to understand that slaves and government workers cannot create GDP; without GDP, you have no tax base, without a tax base, you can’t maintain a government, and a large portion of women work for the government, whether directly or through welfare.

And then Carpentier pulls out his trump card:

And this is only if men are so kind as not to revolt.

Yep. It’s always the same old story with these guys: If you don’t listen up, ladies, the world you know will collapse, MEN will arise as one in fury at the women who destroyed the civilization they worked so hard to build, and a new MANLY MALE MANARCHY will put itself in charge.

And presumably the marital raping will begin in earnest again.

Once again, it all comes down to fury that women can say “no.”

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Alice Sanguinaria
6 years ago

Herman, can we not imply that having mental disabilities is a bad thing and that the mentally disabled are inherently fuckwits? Ableism isn’t cool.

Marie
Marie
6 years ago

@kittehs

Hi Fade! It’s always nice when you and Marie are around. 🙂

Yaaaay!! 😀 I’ll take your nice words for the both of us and hoard them all to myself >:D At least until Fade gets back. XD

@herman f

Can we fuck off with the ableism? I’m getting reeeaaaallly tired of it.

Herman F.
6 years ago

You are right. I apologize.

These people make me so mad though that I stoop to their level at times.

I’ll just stick to the observation that things they say simply do not make any sense and are often self contradictory. Call that whatever you want to.

katz
6 years ago

I’ll just stick to the observation that things they say simply do not make any sense and are often self contradictory.

There you go, now THAT we can all agree on.

kittehserf
6 years ago

You are right. I apologize.

These people make me so mad though that I stoop to their level at times.

And that, gentle readers, is the right way to do an apology.

🙂

(Herman, did you get a welcome package?)

Fade
6 years ago

@marie

Nice words hoarder! XD

Anyway, thanks for the welcomes, kittehserf, LBT, and cloudiah, sorry if I missed anyone. Unfortunately, I picked the worstest time to comment, b/c it is my bed time. Goodnight, yall.

Alice Sanguinaria
6 years ago

Herman – 🙂 It’s okay. Just be careful about what you say in future. We don’t need to tarnish already marginalized groups with the taint of MRA-hood; we’re better than that. Apology accepted.

katz
6 years ago

Off-topic: I was looking at WWII nose art and came across today’s reminder that Aussies put kangaroos on everything and have been for at least 70 years.

Ally S
6 years ago

A burgeoning respect for the sex that created and continues to maintain the civilization women so blithely enjoy would be nice

A civilization that women have played absolutely no important role in maintenance or creation. Women’s work doesn’t count because…it’s women’s work!

neuroticbeagle
6 years ago

Off-topic: I was looking at WWII nose art and came across today’s reminder that Aussies put kangaroos on everything and have been for at least 70 years.

Off-off-topic: I was inspired to look at Australia, kangaroos and humor on pintrest and I found something that amused me: http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/6f/b8/62/6fb8625c5bb419e2e13866da31fa3231.jpg

Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

*dies laughing*

kittehserf
6 years ago

::also dies laughing::

neuroticbeagle
6 years ago

*Is happy that made people laugh* 🙂

Deoridhe
6 years ago

Poor, long suffering England.

You know, I just gotta say, it’s awesome to have two people respond with honest apologies when it’s pointed out they said something ableist. One of the things I love about Manbooberz is how everyone is so aware of all the axes of discrimination, and it’s so reassuring to see that bar met by all but the trolls.

CassandraSays
6 years ago

@ Deoridhe

Don’t check the Vox Day thread, then, it’ll just depress you.

Also, when is the creeper going to understand that I’m never going to be his friend no matter how much he pesters me?

Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

Some time after the heat death of the universe?

lana
lana
6 years ago

I for one am all for the marketing and availability of Vasalgel. Its safer than hormonal BC for women which carries increased risk of certain kinds of cancer , stroke ,and sexual dysfunction.Its also less of a hassle as far as having to remember daily to take it .And safer and far less invasive longer lasting than having an IUD implanted in your uterus .

I would have loved it if my husband could have gotten one little shot that lasted 10 years throughout our marriage and was reversible .I would love it if he could get it NOW LOL.He’s looking into visectomy now which is more invasive and expensive .At our age by the time that shot wore off I should have gone through menopause.

So I don’t know about all the fem’s shaking in their boots that its on the horizon.All I know is I would have my husband first in line .

Ashley
6 years ago

Since this is still a relevant topic, I shouldn’t have said what I said in the other thread, period. It was assholey (or assholeish?) of me. I sometimes fire off comments without thinking what I am saying, and although I rarely come back to look at responses my comments in threads of the past, I am not surprised to hear I have said things that I shouldn’t have on several occasions. It’s my fault for not paying attention. Whether or not I offended people, it shouldn’t have been said either way.

I always thought this was a place to mock misogynists, so in that frame of mind, it’s not easy for me to communicate my contempt for those people without being an asshole. It’s not an excuse for my past behavior though. I am a friendly, warm, and considerate person generally speaking, unless I see someone else being an asshole, then I become an asshole to them or behave like an asshole when talking about them, so yes, I admit that. I need to practice getting into the habit of using non offensive language when it comes to expressing my feelings towards things like this.

Thanks to all of you who have addressed this to me.

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

Hey Ally, who is that person in your icon? I know you change it periodically, but it seems more often to be that girl. (Or someone who looks a lot like her, with the dark hair and earlocks.)

And wait, people actually think kangaroos are RIDEABLE? I thought they weren’t big or strong enough.

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

Progress! Huzzah! You appear to be learning, Ashley. (Unless I’m missing a lot of things, in which case boo.)

CassandraSays
6 years ago

The MRA belief that feminists, or women as a group, would oppose better contraceptive options for men is such a perfect illustration of how out of touch with how most people think they are. It’s an onion of dumb, misogynistic ideas all layered on top of each other. Or maybe a trifle, but made of hate and fear rather than cake and fruit.

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

I know, CassandraSays, and it’s WEIRD. There’s the assumption that all women desperately want children (wut), that all women desperately want children specifically for the purpose of child support fraud (lol), and also that these guy’s bodily fluids are so precious that you can actually control people’s behavior by refusing to let them have it.

Seriously, these guys put the phallus in fallacy.

lana
lana
6 years ago

Ashley ,

I have much respect for your honestly and ability to humble your self . And I totally get what you’re saying too about being an ass hole is kind of contagious sometimes.In fact I think much of the MRA is about induction / and creation of misogynist.(((HUGS)))

CassandraSays
6 years ago

Idea a and idea b contradict each other, too. If you really believe in the idea that women crave motherhood in and of itself then the idea that women become parents purely to defraud men makes no sense at all.

Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

LBT — well, I assume a suitable small person could ride a ‘roo. My cousin’s six year old maybe? Might be the case that anyone light enough would be too young to hold on though.

Cassandra — right?! I can’t imagine the group capable of getting pregnant refusing to allow the prevention of pregnancy to not be their problem (as a general rule, I can certainly understand wanting that control where abuse, particularly reproductive coercion, is involved). Like, one of my aunt’s married a widower who had two teenagers, and had had a vasectomy. They looked into having it reversed, but this was nearly 30 years ago and the odds of it working just weren’t worth it. I’m entirely sure they’d have loved it if he’d had access to a male form of BC sorta akin to an IUD — long term, no muss no fuss, but reversible. (Now, whether he’d have gone for it, I can’t possibly say, but as an option? No way in hell would said aunt have issue with such BC being available! [ironically, she’s the aforementioned six year old’s grandma so she didn’t get biological kids, but she gets to be a grandma and loves it])

CassandraSays
6 years ago

I think what would happen if more contraceptive options for men were available is that within established het couples they’d be used a lot, and the women would be very happy with that arrangement. In terms of casual sex, not so much, because do you really trust someone who you’re not a in serious relationship with to be honest about something that you have no way of verifying when they’re in the process of trying to get laid? Especially when the potential consequence is pregnancy. So I think outside of established relationships it would serve mostly as something that men would do for their own peace of mind (which there’s no reason for feminists to object to), and the women who sleep with those men would continue to use whatever form of woman-focused contraceptive they prefer in order to maintain their peace of mind.

If it plays out that way I’m sure that MRAs will decide that women’s reluctance to accept “I’m on the male pill, baby, so we don’t need a condom” is misandry.

Ally S
6 years ago

Hey Ally, who is that person in your icon? I know you change it periodically, but it seems more often to be that girl. (Or someone who looks a lot like her, with the dark hair and earlocks.)

The black-and-white character you keep seeing is Okinu from Ghost Sweeper Mikami, a 90s shounen manga. I often put her in my Gravatar just because I relate to her a lot for some reason.

lana
lana
6 years ago

LBT,

What you said . Isn’t it ironic though that all these women are desperate for sperm fluid to have babies. But these same guys resent having to pay for BC pills through Obama care.They also tend to be more likely to want to outlaw abortion .

And I agree its a complete disconnect and ignorance that women ,particularly women married or in a long term relationships would not want long term, effective, safe ,reversible,inexpensive , very low invasive BC for their husbands /bf’s .OH no ..I would rather have my tubes tide at 30 for example after my second child . Which is very hard to reverse if you change your mind not to mention very invasive to do so, than my husband get a needle prick in his scrotum?

NOOO>>>>>I would rather take hormones for years that jack up (or jack down that is )my libido ,increase my risk of breast cancer and stroke ! Actually I would really RATHER have to cram a diaphram up my patooty every time I have sex .Or have a device put in my uterus (painful procedure) and be at risk for pelvic inflamatory disease or WORSE!

ANYTHING but the man taking the responsibility for birth control !

CassandraSays
6 years ago

Maybe it’s because they never, ever trust their wives that they can’t wrap their heads around the idea that most wives trust their husbands.

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

Thanks, Ally!

RE: Argenti

In that case, I think an emu would be a less bumpy ride… eesh! Can you imagine all the bouncing?

RE: lana

Yeah, it’s this weird thing where they seem to be going spitefully, “Yeah, well, you folks might be able to have children… so that means you have to take responsibility for EVERYTHING involving the creation of said children, plus their upbringing! Yeah, take that!” while at the same time resenting those child-bearing people for having that ability.

It’s like, guys, not all of us get to be babymakers. Move on.

lana
lana
6 years ago

In terms of casual sex, not so much, because do you really trust someone who you’re not a in serious relationship with to be honest about something that you have no way of verifying when they’re in the process of trying to get laid? Especially when the potential consequence is pregnancy.

This I agree would not be ideal for casual sex .Including of course it doesn’t protect against STD’s .

CassandraSays
6 years ago

Because I know how MRAs argue, I will point out that their response will be “well you expect us to trust women who say they’re on the pill even if we just met them!”, to which my response is that no, I don’t. If you really want to make sure that you aren’t going to impregnate someone, and you’re not sure you can trust the woman you’re sleeping with, then you should use a condom, because that’s something you can control.

lana
lana
6 years ago

That’s why my eyebrows crinkled again when that guy wrote it out like somehow women would lose out or feel threatened somehow .

When I first saw the article on the research going on for that Vasalgel procedure I was PISSED OF .Not because it looked so promising .But because it said that because there is so little money to be made by it that it may never be marketed !

I think the guys snickering about how threatening it is to ‘we women” should be more concerned about demanding that it be made readily available, at your doctors office, the minute the research is concluded .

Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

Actually, if it blocks all fluids, it just might protect again some STDs (notably, HIV transmits via certain bodily fluids), for the owner of the orifice the penis is going into anyways. I still wouldn’t trust a casual partner with that (particularly with the risk of HIV, pregnancy can be dealt with after all, HIV can’t)

lana
lana
6 years ago

I completely agree Cassandra ,

Keep it in your pants or wear a condom with spermicide. I have ZERO sympathy for a guy that says “but she said she was on the pill.” ..TAKE responsibility for your self don’t blame her .Besides BC is not 100% effective even if used as prescribed .My DIL got pregnant on BC pills. So did my neighbor.Turns out in my DIL’s case she had taken antibiotics that month that had lowered its effectiveness significantly . My neighbor had taken some over the counter meds for stomach issues same thing.

Not to mention it does not protect the guy from STD’s .

I do not “expect” any guy to trust a woman he does not know or know well. And even if he does …be prepared she could still get pregnant even if you know she is on the pill.

CassandraSays
6 years ago

The refusal of guys who say they’re super worried about being tricked into fatherhood to do something as simple as wear condoms doesn’t exactly encourage the listener to take them seriously.

lana
lana
6 years ago

Argenti ,

The one I read about (the injection) doesn’t block all fluids .The chemical that is sitting in the tubes my understanding in affect shreds the sperm as they pass through .Like pulls them apart killing them.The fluid still comes out just the sperm are dead.

chimisaur
chimisaur
6 years ago

Just wondering: assuming for a moment the ridiculous notion that half the population is “obsolete” is true, what exactly to MGTOWs propose to do about it (apart from whining)?

Either way I’ve lost what tiny potential respect for them I could have had; if they have a plan, they are a very dangerous murder-inclined hate-group, and I hope very much that some kind of law enforcement monitors their pages for the safety’s sake. If they don’t, they’re ineffectual complainers and overall a very silly non-activist group. Gross.

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

Actually, lana, I’ve heard that spermicide calls irritation in a lot of people, actually making the chances of something going wrong WORSE. But I don’t have a source; can anybody more knowledgeable check me on that?

RE: CassandraSays

Yeah, plus, there are PLENTY of fun sexy things one can do with no risk of pregnancy at all. It’s not like you’re freakin’ doomed. I get it, it requires someone to actually think and take care when they have sex, but I don’t see why that’s such a big burden. (But then, I’m from the AIDS generation. Perhaps once upon a time, there was “carefree” sex. But I doubt it.)

lana
lana
6 years ago

Right Cassandra ,

Ticked into father hood. I don’t think anyone “tricked” him into pulling his pants down and inserting his penis into her vagina and ejaculating into her . I think its more like they would rather not wear a condom because it dulls the sensations so they “take her word for it.” Besides like I mentioned she could be in fact on the pill .Not lying .Not trying to get pregnant by him .And still get pregnant .So why is it all her responsibility if she conceives?

chimisaur
chimisaur
6 years ago

Actually, lana, I’ve heard that spermicide calls irritation in a lot of people, actually making the chances of something going wrong WORSE. But I don’t have a source; can anybody more knowledgeable check me on that?

Well, I have personal anecdote from personally being allergic to spermicide and finding that out the hard way (the resulting inflammatory response and dryness shreds condoms), but I can go check PubMed for allergy studies to that effect for something more official since I’m supposed to be on that leg of the internet doing research-y things anyway.

chimisaur
chimisaur
6 years ago

Ugh. Used “personal” twice in a row. Sorry, I’m not normally this inarticulate. Blame fatigue.

lana
lana
6 years ago

Actually, lana, I’ve heard that spermicide calls irritation in a lot of people, actually making the chances of something going wrong WORSE. But I don’t have a source; can anybody more knowledgeable check me on that?

LBT,

Not sure only thing I do seem to recall vaguely is (don’t quote me ) that spermacide can irritate (inflame) the cervix and increase her risk of contracting HPV. BUT also doesn’t spermicide lower the risk of contracting HIV ?

Maybe I’ll look it up .

Good news is the girls now can get the HPV immunization .

Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

“The fluid still comes out just the sperm are dead.” Ah, never mind then.

Spermicide kills sperm, so I doubt it helps prevent HIV, and boys can get the HPV vaccine too.

LBT — yeah my mother said something about sex and I just gave this blank “seriously?” face, took her a second to go “right, that was before AIDS” — so idk about carefree sex, but it definitely has changed attitudes.

lana
lana
6 years ago

O.K but even if a guy is allergic ? He can still insist SHE use spermicide and he wears a condom .They make spermicidal inserts for women .Its like a little sheet of spermicide she puts right up against her cervix and it melts and is effective in about 15 minutes and good for about 4 hours .He can wear a condom with no spermicide the condom would be a barrier to it.

Other than that .Again keep it in your pants or don’t blame her if she ends up pregnant.

The only 100% way of not getting pregnant as far as I know is abstinence or in the case the woman has no ovaries .Or I’m sure in some rare cases the guy doesn’t produce any sperm .

I knew a guy that had a friend that had a vasectomy and his wife had her tubes tide and years later she got pregnant .Sure a very rare exception but …..

lana
lana
6 years ago

Argenti,

I did not know the boys could get the HPV vaccine. Awesome. I should have known something like that i have boys .Including a 17 year old .I should look into it.

chimisaur
chimisaur
6 years ago

K but even if a guy is allergic ? He can still insist SHE use spermicide and he wears a condom .They make spermicidal inserts for women .

Oh, right, we’re talking about guywhining and “forced fatherhood” : In that case, yeah, it’s pretty much on the guy to make sure somebody’s using spermicide. Also, I’m pretty sure the incidence of allergic reaction is waaayyy lower with male-bodied types. (Ironically I was describing a run-in with just such an insert – you don’t have to tell me they exist! XD)

lana
lana
6 years ago

Right care free . I remember the fear even years later when I was married and I had a routine HIV test with my last pregnancy . I was too chicken to go have one done before that.It was a relief of course that I was negative . I didn’t have to think every time I got sick “what if I have AIDS.” Or if I cut myself and was bleeding “what if I have AIDS and I infect my kids.”

chimisaur
chimisaur
6 years ago

I think the SPLC watches them, since they’re on their official “hate group” list.

They are? That’s wonderful news, and restores a bit of my faith in humanity’s reasonableness as a whole. 🙂

lana
lana
6 years ago

Oh, right, we’re talking about guywhining and “forced fatherhood” : In that case, yeah, it’s pretty much on the guy to make sure somebody’s using spermicide. Also, I’m pretty sure the incidence of allergic reaction is waaayyy lower with male-bodied types. (Ironically I was describing a run-in with just such an insert – you don’t have to tell me they exist! XD)

Chimisaur,

Forgive me LOL>>>I don’t know why I thought you were a guy !

Earlier I was talking about a guy wearing a condom with spermicide in it . I just assumed the allergic description was about a guy .I was kind of wondering about the “dryness” LOL>>(DUH) (how does a guys penis dry out during sex and rip the condom hmmmm word picture lOL)