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Vox Day: Don't call your wife "the boss," because women are dogs, or something.

You may now lick the bride's face.
You may now lick the bride’s face.

Some married men like to jokingly refer to their wife as “the boss,” generally in a patronizing manner that suggests she’s nominally in charge of the boring everyday stuff in the household that he doesn’t really care about anyway.

But our old nemesis Vox Day isn’t having any of it. To refer to your wife as the boss, even as a joke, is to threaten to loose the forces of anarchy and chaos and feminism upon your family. Also, women are dogs. On his Alpha Game blog, he writes,

If you let a dog think he’s the boss, he will cease to defer to you and begin objecting, violently, when you interfere with what he now believes are his prerogatives. Women are no different.

That’s right. Give in an inch to your wife, and the next thing you know she’ll be sitting on the furniture and insisting on eating “people food” at the table.

It’s a tad ironic that Vox here has decided to degrade women by comparing them to dogs, when his whole “alpha” schtick is based on misguided notions about the behavior of “alpha dogs” and wolves.

It’s one thing to turn over your social calendar to your wife due to a lack of interest in the various social obligations of the family. But checking in to see if there is scheduling conflict, or simply being courteous enough to see if your wife minds if you go to the football game does not make you an employee or a child. Therefore, it does not make her the boss. And what might have been an ironic jest in the days of Mad Men is often taken quite literally now.

Marriage: an endless power struggle in which the wife must always lose.

What a lovely vision of the world!

I should also add that you should never ever, even jokingly, refer to Bruce Springsteen as “the boss” either, because if you do he’s going to be hounding you to hand in your TPS reports and forcing you to work on Saturdays. You don’t want that.

EDITED TO ADD: In the comments on Alpha Game, cailcorishev expands a bit on the whole “women-as-dogs” thing in what he evidently thinks is a humorous way:

 Since you mentioned dogs: virtually everything about disciplining a dog and being the pack leader applies to leading a woman (or children). I’m convinced that, if you took a woman on a 45-minute walk every day, as Cesar Millan recommended for dogs, it would eliminate a lot of her problems. Just make sure you lead her, having her take your arm and follow you where you want to go — or use a leash if she’s into that kind of thing.

I can only hope his wife — if there is an unfortunate woman holding this position — pees on the rug and chews up all his important paperwork.

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lana
lana
6 years ago

Then, after I apologized, people feel the need to tell me it’s not good enough for them…as if they expect me to do more in trying to prove myself…I don’t know what else those folks want from me.

Its under the circumstances you apologized. And sounds like there is a history of that.

Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

Marie — you’re making sense to me. But maybe because I was already thinking “oh look, tone trolling” (also, hi again! Did you see that my cories had babies? I have little fishies!)

Marie
Marie
6 years ago

@argenti aertheri

No, I don’t think I saw that they had babies. Yay for baby fishies 😀

alternatesteve90
6 years ago

Well, since this is apparently not gonna stop quite yet, I might as well offer my own two cents.

@lana: Not from yourself, not at all, but TBH, some folks kinda were.

@Marie:

but nobody owes you a polite response when you’re being bigoted. People shouldn’t have to phrase shit nicely to get you to stop being ableist.

(idk if that made sense to anyone else? Am I making sense?)

Not quite 100%, TBH: I don’t think she came across as a bigot nor intended to. No offense intended, though.

And to Ashley, TBH, the main problem was not only how you phrased things in your original statement, but how you also phrased your apology; I realize this probably wasn’t intentional in all likelihood, but you did kinda come across as perhaps a tad insincere. With that said, while some of the backlash was undoubtedly a bit more harsh than you really deserved(quite a bit in some cases), one thing I have to point out is that there are some frequenters of this site who do struggle with certain conditions, and so certain things that may be said may come across as rather insensitive, even if there was no malicious intent.

My advice to you would be to just try to think more carefully about what you say in the future, particularly on matters such as this. Hopefully this will prove to be helpful, somewhat. =)

alternatesteve90
6 years ago

Aw damn…..looks like the Blockquote Monster got me. =( Hopefully nobody gets confused.

Just in case, though, I’ll just retype my statement to Ashley:

And to Ashley, TBH, the main problem was not only how you phrased things in your original statement, but how you also phrased your apology; I realize this probably wasn’t intentional in all likelihood, but you did kinda come across as perhaps a tad insincere. With that said, while some of the backlash was undoubtedly a bit more harsh than you really deserved(quite a bit in some cases), one thing I have to point out is that there are some frequenters of this site who do struggle with certain conditions, and so certain things that may be said may come across as rather insensitive, even if there was no malicious intent.

My advice to you would be to just try to think more carefully about what you say in the future, particularly on matters such as this. Hopefully this will prove to be helpful, somewhat. =)

Marie
Marie
6 years ago

@alternatesteve90

Yeah, but just because she didn’t mean to be hurtful doesn’t mean it isn’t hurtful, and nobody owes her a polite explanation. Intent: It’s not fucking magic.

Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

I’m being an over sensitive nut job lately, and thus a smidge put off by “one thing I have to point out is that there are some frequenters of this site who do struggle with certain conditions, and so certain things that may be said may come across as rather insensitive,”

It’s the assumption that mentally ill = cannot be taken seriously cuz we’re just oversenstive. Except currently I am, so idk. Point here being that there are also regulars here who care about people with mental illness(es) and are thus more alert to what is insensitive (what is, not what comes across as, that distinction is the issue with Ashley’s apology — it was offensive, it was not taken as offensive, the difference there shifts it from “I made a mistake” to “mistakes were made” [cookies if you know the source of “mistakes were made”])

And I’m not making sense am I?

Marie — the biggest of the first batch is nearly big enough to go in my 55g tank, the second batch hatched earlier today, haven’t spotted them yet but they’re under a cm at this point, so big surprise I haven’t spotted them eh? I’m thrilled, I haven’t had baby fishies in over a year and am just giddy that I finally have a fertile male! (My albino boy is sterile apparently, it isn’t uncommon in male albino cories)

dlouwe
dlouwe
6 years ago

Then, after I apologized, people feel the need to tell me it’s not good enough for them…as if they expect me to do more in trying to prove myself…I don’t know what else those folks want from me.

I think a good direction would be to clarify whether you’re sorry because you said something that you shouldn’t have, or if you’re sorry because what you said offended people. Because “I’m sorry you got offended” is certainly not going to cut it, and I think that’s what a lot of people suspect your apology meant.

The fact that you only apologized after David called you out (and after specifically stating that it was up to David to determine what is and is not suitable content in the comments) seem incredibly coincidental and undercuts any personal revelations you may or may not have had behind the scenes at the same time. So if you can be more explicit about exactly what sort of developments brought you to the apology (beyond “thinking about what I had said”), it could go a long way to making the circumstances seem less suspect.

Also, actually talking about what you said instead of getting cagey and defensive responses about what they said are like to make people much more amenable to the idea that you’re not just trying to duck out of making a meaningful apology.

dlouwe
dlouwe
6 years ago

And I’m not making sense am I?

Perfect sense. An insensitive statement is insensitive regardless of the audience. The mistake is not making it in a particular company, but rather thinking that it was okay to say at all in the first place.

Marie
Marie
6 years ago

@argenti aertheri

you’re making sense to me. And

It’s the assumption that mentally ill = cannot be taken seriously cuz we’re just oversenstive.

Aaaalllll the seconding.

And hope your second batch of fishies does okay :3

pecunium
6 years ago

Ashley: pecunium, I did own my words and I did apologize for them, more than once.

No, you apologised if anyone took offense; that’s not actually apologising, that’s being apologetic. You also averred you would only refrain from such language if people told you they took some “personal” offense.

That means you don’t really think you are doing anything wrong, just that you will backtrack when called on bad behavior; but only under specific conditions.

Which isn’t good enough for me. I could have held my peace, but then you wouldn’t know the truth, which is that what you are doing isn’t actually coming across as sincere.

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

Hey wow, this is actually exactly the kind of situation I created my How to Apologize comic strip for!

See, Ashley, the reason people are pissy at you, is because you’re totally blowing how to apologize.

1. Be sincere. You had to be specifically asked BY DAVID to stop. Plus all the rest other folks have said about being sorry about the offense, not the action.

2. Show understanding of what you did wrong. You aren’t. You are getting pissed that people keep pointing this out to you. First rule of holes: stop digging.

3. Improve behavior so it doesn’t happen again. This is NOT your first strike.

Get it? You are failing basic social skills, and you’re being a pain in the ass. Either cut it out, or GTFO.

kittehserf
6 years ago

When I was first called out, I wasn’t thinking about the feelings of others, because it wasn’t presented to me in the best way. All I was hearing was a demand that to me, was rather domineering “Just stop” I’m not going to respond well to that. It took me a minute to sit back and think, after some other people’s comments who worded their perspective in a way that actually inspired me to think about what I had said rather than just trying to tell me to stfu.

Diddums. Like LBT just pointed out, this isn’t your first strike. I’m not in the habit of jumping on newbies or people I don’t know have said something like this before. You’ve done it all before, you’ve apologised before, and you’ve gone straight back to this fucking ableist shit.

So yeah, it’s about time for JUST STOP. Why should anyone be tiptoeing around your fee-fees with someone who repeatedly, knowingly ignores the feelings of those here after repeated requests to stop, and explanations as to why?

You’re acting like an arsehole and trying to paint yourself as the victim here. Nobody’s impressed.

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

When I was first called out, I wasn’t thinking about the feelings of others, because it wasn’t presented to me in the best way.

“Ow! You stepped on my foot! Get off!”

“Well, you don’t have to be RUDE about it.” *stays standing on foot*

“No, seriously, get off.”

“If it’s that big a deal, the boss will tell me to get off.”

Boss: *appears out of nowhere* “Dude, get off.”

*sigh* “Fine. I’m off. Sorry.”

“Dude, wtf is your problem?”

“I SAID I WAS SORRY AND YOU WERE RUDE! And now you’re dogpiling me!”

“But you were standing on my foot…”

Marie
Marie
6 years ago

And yay to LBT for the good explanation 🙂

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

Seriously Ashley, with respect, this might not be the place for you here.

CassandraSays
6 years ago

What LBT said (all of it). I do not experience the response that I think Ashley means by “personally offended” to the comments about MRAs being mentally ill. Those comment don’t hurt my feelings or make me feel bad about myself. They do make me think that the person making the comments is being an asshole, especially when a. it’s been pointed out to them before that those comments upset some people here and b. the response to being asked to stop is “you can’t make me! only David can!”.

It shouldn’t take the blog version of Dad coming into the room and telling everyone to play nice for people to respond in an appropriate manner to frequent, repeated requests that they stop saying something that many people find offensive. That’s what people are annoyed about, more than the “crazy” comments themselves at this point.

kittehserf
6 years ago

What CassandraSaid. I’m not personally affected; I am annoyed because a) it does affect others here that way; b) it’s been pointed out SO OFTEN that it’s not acceptable, and why; c) repeat offenders are being assholes.

And fuck it all – hellkell mentioned upthread how commenting here’s made her more aware of this issue, and it’s certainly done that for me. Why’s it so fucking difficult for some people to get through their heads?

alternatesteve90
6 years ago

@Argenti: No, it’s alright, I get what you’re saying.

@Marie: Yes, I realize that. And in fact, that was the same point I was trying to get across.

@dlouwe: That was rather well stated. Good points, all. =)

CassandraSays
6 years ago

@ kittehs

Yeah, I used to use “crazy” all the time until it was pointed out to me how many problems there were with doing so. I still haven’t managed to eliminate it completely from my vocabulary in meatspace, but the thing about commenting online is that you have the chance to look over your comment, think about what you’re saying, and change it if you realize that what you’re saying might upset people. So, in communities where people keep telling you that X is offensive and they’d rather you didn’t use it in that particular space, why would you keep using it? The whole “you can’t make me stop” thing just feels really childish.

Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

Cassandra — yeah, meatspace-wise the only person who pulls “you can’t make me” on me is my brother. (I’d do it to him, but he can make me, being twice my size and easily able to relocate me to another room!)

And, you know, siblings!

“Funny” story — I ended up with my mother and brother beating me with the empty wrapping paper “tubes” (I should note that this is basically rolled up construction paper and not remotely painful). See, he whacked me with one while she was holding the other. I said to hit him, she went to and he went all but but you’re supposed to do to us what we said to do to the other! And suddenly I’m a piñata. Took her a minute to go “hey wait” and hand me hers, resulting in a paper tube sword fight. Typical around here (actually, less silly than some days, no one threatened to weaponize the cat!)

Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

OH MY GODS I HAVE TINY CORIES!!

My eggs have hatched and they’re so very tiny and D’AWWWW

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

FISHIES! 8D BEBE FISHIES!

CassandraSays
6 years ago

Are they small enough that it’s useless asking for photos?

Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

Yep! Should be big enough for photos in a couple of days though. And maybe the big guy from the first batch will come out for the camera even (big girl? The females are larger but idk if that applies this far before maturity!)

Alex
6 years ago

Regarding Ashley’s bullshit, and some newbies. Don’t most people lurk a lot before making their first comments? I assume they lurk to look at the comments of other people and not just the OP itself. Surely they must have seen more than once that the community here includes lots of people with various mental conditions (myself included) and that using ableist terms does not go over very well here. Yet so often we have newbies coming out with “MRAs be crazy!” in their first comment. Enough already! Lurk more ffs. As with others, I have my own slips in meatspace, and before spending a lot of time here, I used ableist terms too. I get it. But when it’s obvious that shit doesn’t fly in a certain space, why would you keep doing it? I doubt every newbie who makes an ableist comment isn’t aware of how it’s received here. Do they think they’ll be the special exception or something? And is it just me, or does there seem to be a lot of “It’s David’s blog!!! I will be an asshole till he tells me stop or bans me!!!” from the last few trolls lately? /rant

LBT
LBT
6 years ago

Yeah, Alex, I dunno what is with the rash of crazy comments lately. I swear, we’ve been stomping on them with every post these days. It’s tiresome and aggravating; if I wanted this shit, I’d just bum around meatspace!

Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

“And is it just me, or does there seem to be a lot of “It’s David’s blog!!! I will be an asshole till he tells me stop or bans me!!!” from the last few trolls lately? /rant”

It’s not just you.

Unimaginative
Unimaginative
6 years ago

Cuttlefish!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aquanerds/27324010/sizes/z/in/photostream/

via Pharyngula, where I intermittently lurk.

I, too, notice crazy as a disparaging term a lot more since hanging out here, especially on Rachel Maddow, when she’s describing the seriously irrational behaviour by various politicians and lobbyists. It’s frustrating.

If someone is engaging in cruel behaviour for ideological reasons, then they’re wrong, and cruel, and irrational, and possibly not very smart. But they’re not crazy, and saying that they are sort of removes from them the responsibility for their actions.

Speaking of cruel, for any Canadians out there, The Harper Government™ is sneaking a provision into the new budget that will make it harder for workers to refuse dangerous work.

http://www.canadianlabour.ca/right-to-refuse-unsafe-work

They’re sneaking all the cruel provisions into omnibus budget bills. Fuckers.

FromAfar
FromAfar
6 years ago

“Don’t most people lurk a lot before making their first comments? I assume they lurk to look at the comments of other people and not just the OP itself. Surely they must have seen more than once that the community here includes lots of people with various mental conditions (myself included) and that using ableist terms does not go over very well here.”

Exactly! This is my second comment ever, in spite of being a long time lurker. I don’t post much because by the time I think of a way to articulate a response, someone else has already said it better! Meh.

As for the respectful language issue; I actually credit this blog and a few others I lurk on for helping me bring my language usage in line with my values. Its amazing how often people use terms like ‘crazy’, ‘fat’ and ‘gay’ as an unrelated insult IRL. Even people who know better. I don’t anymore myself, but I still haven’t gotten to the point where I really feel comfortable correcting other people yet. : /

Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

Cassandra — I tried a photoshoot just for you, but they’re too tiny to make out and the big guy is apparently not feeling photogenic. Sorry.

Also, LITTLE TINY SHINY CUTTLEFISH!!

Marie
Marie
6 years ago

@LBT

Yeah, Alex, I dunno what is with the rash of crazy comments lately. I swear, we’ve been stomping on them with every post these days. It’s tiresome and aggravating; if I wanted this shit, I’d just bum around meatspace!

Ditto on the seeming to be more of them, but I just got back so idk how long that’s been going on. :/ Luckily the people I hang around in meatspace most often with (aka family) seem to eventually apologize for their ableist shit, and shockingly enough, without trying to invoke some ‘if dad tells me’ shit. (which is reallly good cuz the people I have to call out the most are my parents.)

@unimaginitave

If someone is engaging in cruel behaviour for ideological reasons, then they’re wrong, and cruel, and irrational, and possibly not very smart. But they’re not crazy, and saying that they are sort of removes from them the responsibility for their actions.

^QFT.

Speaking of cruel, for any Canadians out there, The Harper Government™ is sneaking a provision into the new budget that will make it harder for workers to refuse dangerous work.</blockquote

ugh, that fucking sucks 🙁

@from afar

Hi! 😀 I know you said it's your second comment, but idk if I saw your first. And this blog (as well as others) also helped me on editing out my ableist language. So yay this blog.

And hopefully this comment made sense? My brain's kinda frazzled today so I can't tell.

alternatesteve90
6 years ago

@Unimaginative: Sadly, I’m really not that surprised about that. Hopefully you guys can finally toss that jerkass Harper to the curb sometime soon. =(

Blackadder
Blackadder
6 years ago

Ah ol Voxy my favorite. You know what really gets under this guys skin? As Dowd has correctly noted, men are obsolete. While women have less and less need for men, the reverse is not true. Men still very much need women. dudebros like Vox can’t stand the fact that men are in the weaker position so they have to constantly reassert their manhood. Amusing but pathetic.

Argenti Aertheri
6 years ago

I don’t even…

Women no longer need men to provide an income so they can, you know, not starve on the streets. Men never had that need, or any of the similar needs. So yes, women have less need for men. But no need, making men obsolete? I don’t even…

Women, like men, still have emotional and sexual needs that many like to have fulfilled by men. As in, women have less need of men than they used to, but no less need for men than men have for them. So no, men aren’t in “the weaker position”.

What they are in is a position of less power than they used to have, and these guys are terrified by the idea of being on a level playing field with women. They want the era were women had to marry to survive back, complete with marital rape not being a crime. Those days being a thing of the past neither means that men are in some “weaker position” than women, nor that men are becoming obsolete.

Bina
Bina
6 years ago

Men aren’t obsolete, and never will be. Sexism and male privilege? That’s another story. The War on Women is a pretty blatant attempt to bring ’em back, and these guys complain that THEY’re the ones under siege? Projection!

kittehserf
6 years ago

The whole “X is obsolete” plays into a nasty idea that humans are some sort of utilities or technology. I’ll grant that MRAs are complete tools, but other than that, humans just are.

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