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Men’s Rights Redditor explains the mate choice process of the human female, and also why she won’t pay for dinner

Stick-up females waiting for men to bring them dead animals for dinner.
Stuck-up females waiting for men to bring them dead animals for dinner.

So over in the Men’s Rights subreddit, the fellas are doing their best to address the burning Men’s Right issue of “date inequality,” or, as one recent poster put the question,“Hey feminists. How come men are still expected to pay for dates?”

I’m pretty sure that feminists aren’t the ones expecting men to pay for dates, so I’m not sure why feminists should be held to account for something they’re not doing, but in any case, the Men’s Rightsers don’t seem much interested in hearing explanations from feminists. No, they’re rather offer their own theories.

Enter a new convert to Men’s Rightsism called MrKocha, who enlists the aid of SCIENCE to offer his own explanation of this terrible date injustice:

I see a lot of problems with every day inequality between the sexes in mate interaction in various areas.

Attention, human female. Initiating mate interaction protocol.

First being, the average female has vastly different motivations in her mate selection. How much is nature vs nurture is up for debate, but I tend towards believing millions of years of evolution probably have left a significant mark there.

Huh. What are the odds that these millions of years of evolution just happen to line up with whatever regressive assertions about women — sorry, females — this dude is about to make?

Anyway her mate choice process often involves looking for signs of genetic fitness in male (attractive appearance, displayed dominance socially or physically, risk taking, higher social status), and weighing this against his ability to invest in her long term future: such as pay her dinner/bills). Paying for dinner displays two things: one a willingness to self sacrifice for women, and two the financial resources to continue to do so.

Let’s see. Human beings for the majority of their existence on this planet were hunters and gatherers. Even if we assume that men mainly did the hunting and women mainly did the gathering, the gathered food made up the bulk of the diet. So really, men on dates should expect women to bring them large salads in return for the carcass of a small mammal.

The second part of the problem is women also have a significantly stronger in group bias, to the point where considering points of view don’t immediately benefit females is actively more difficult.

Uh, I think you accidentally the sentence there.

The process of asking women to merely consider in the name of equality, whether there are social solutions to reduce inequalities between the sexes in mate selection scenarios commonly triggers a strong negative emotional response, that her ‘turf’ is under attack and whoever presents such a question is a threat.

Really? Lots of women have no fucking problem whatsoever with paying for dinner.

How women deal with this varies tremendously. Some experience a great deal of cognitive dissonance, denial, and explain away inequalities with whatever rationalization provides the most reassuring emotional responses.

Wait, are we talking about women or about MRAs now?

Some project their outgroup hatred upon whoever voices the opinion by attacking the individual with petty, poorly thought out attacks on their character.

He must be talking about MRAs, right?

Others, immediately jump miles past the idea of social equality being a noble (if potentially impossible goal), to the issue of consent, making accusations that somehow even considering the idea of more equality in gender relations is an attempt to violate consent of female mate choice? (MY CHOICE! DISCUSSION IS RAPEFUL!)

Um, how did we get from talking about dinner to talking about rape? Is he really suggesting that women have literally accused him of rape because he suggested they pay for their own dinner?

And finally, there do seem to a minority of women who are able to consider the issue rationally, even if it admittedly, challenges her immediate self interests and might be harder than other subjects to think about?

Wow, some women — albeit a minority — somehow manage not to be spiteful, narcissistic children! What a generous assessment of half the human race.

How to tackle the issue, when women potentially have 4 times the amount of in group preference, reinforced by feminist doctrine and a potential biological preference towards the behavior?

How is “getting dudes to pay for dinner” part of feminist doctrine exactly? I’m pretty sure The Rules isn’t a feminist manifesto.

All I can say is to continue to challenge any social doctrine that reinforces in group bias of women and praise women when they display the ability to think outside the spectrum of their immediate self interest even if ultimately there isn’t much other benefit to you?

Who’s a good woman for thinking outside the spectrum of her immediate self-interest? You’re a good woman for thinking outside the spectrum of your immediate self-interest!

Always try to keep in mind, that the negative responses, are basically a reflection of why the question is a valid one in the first place.

Exactly. Whenever women recoil in horror at some astoundingly misogynistic thing you’ve said, that just means you’re totally right!

In a followup comment, MrKocha returns to the notion that women love throwing around rape accusations, not only at men who argue with them about paying for dinner but at “sexually inexperienced men” generally. It’s bad enough that women aren’t attracted to these men, he argues, but

the amount of shame, condescension and hostility thrown their way is quite impressive.

It can range anywhere from rape accusations to golden ones like “I hope you never find someone and stay alone forever!”

Fun fact: each and every man on the planet earth, no matter how sexually experienced, was once a virgin. Somehow most of them managed to garner themselves a certain amount of sexual experience without being accused of rape and/or having women express the opinion that they should remain alone forever.

Assuming that McKocha is speaking from experience here, and assuming also (because I’m already disturbed enough by his comments) that the bit about the rape accusations is internet hyperbole, what exactly is causing all these women to get so angry at him?

I don’t think it’s the sexual inexperience. I think that maybe, possibly, it might be the fact that he obviously hates women?

Just a wild guess.

MrKocha started up a whole thread of his own to further discuss his scientific hypotheses about the human female and her mate choices. It’s called Females Oppressing Female Mate Choice. Because these evil females who put down sexually inexperienced men are also oppressing females who might choose to mate with these men!

Thanks to AgainstMensRights for clueing me in to the wonderfulness of MrKocha — here and here.

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LBT
LBT
7 years ago

Enh, ToySoldier didn’t abuse me. He just mocked me for haha, stupid feminist, you got raped! *rolls eyes* It’s nothing I haven’t heard before. He’s just a self-righteous little prick that has gotten other people to believe his hype. I’d rather hang out with people who actually respect my history.

kittehserf
7 years ago

Okay, it’d merged into abuse as I remembered it – mind you, mocking someone for being raped pretty much fits that description, I think. He’s an all-round loser, that one.

Ally S
7 years ago

LBT, if I ever sound like I’m engaging in some kind of appropriation when I get upset about how folks have treated you, I apologize. It really upsets me when I see people treating survivors like crap, and I fear that sometimes I go into “I’m just as upset as the person who was raped!” territory when I say that I find something anti-survivor upsetting.

gillyrosebee
gillyrosebee
7 years ago

Ally, as a survivor myself, I always appreciate the folks who get upset by the attitude and respond not appropriating, but by being (as you so often do) the kind of supportive ally who will be outraged for others, not outraged in place of them.

Maybe that doesn’t make sense outside of my head…

pecunium
7 years ago

So diz doesn’t pay attention to us, or read the things we post, but knows all about what Dave did, and why, on the definition of rape.

Someone is lying.

pecunium
7 years ago

I used sodomy because I knew you guys would flip over it. You guys are too funny when you get riled up as a group.

I see… people calling you an asshole, for being an asshole = riled.

If it acts like a troll, then, to all intents and purposes, it is a troll.

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

Yeah, I noticed that too, pecunium. Disingenuous little dipshit.

And it’s okay, Ally. It SHOULD be upsetting, in my opinion.

kittehserf
7 years ago

gillyrosebee, it made perfect sense. It’s called empathy!

Ally S
7 years ago

All right, thanks for letting me know, you two. I just want to be careful with these things – I can’t really be genuinely supportive if all I do is go on a righteously indignant crusade while ignoring the people I want to support. That’s like the definition of a terrible ally.

diz
diz
7 years ago

Where did I say that anything was wrong with rape jokes? I’m against rape, not jokes. Christ, I even made a joke about my own rape 10 years ago.

Weren’t you guys just saying that I took this all too seriously? So what, now I’m not taking you seriously enough? I’m sorry, but how seriously am I supposed to take you guys exactly? You’re the internet warrior equivalent to Dan from Street Fighter, even sites like Jezebel think you’re tools.

I’m just hoping to watch Moobz have a Hugo Schwyzer meltdown. Someplace where I can screencap it, preferably.

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

I’m against rape, not jokes. Christ, I even made a joke about my own rape 10 years ago.

That’s great for you. Your experience is not universal. It’s this amazing thing called empathy.

Weren’t you guys just saying that I took this all too seriously?

No, we said you were a disingenuous shithead. Totally different.

even sites like Jezebel think you’re tools.

My self-esteem is deeply injured by this.

I’m just hoping to watch Moobz have a Hugo Schwyzer meltdown.

Yeah, good luck with that. On a scale of 1 to NWOslave, you’re like, a “sand in shoes” at best.

Ally S
7 years ago

Where did I say that anything was wrong with rape jokes? I’m against rape, not jokes. Christ, I even made a joke about my own rape 10 years ago.

Unfortunately for you, that doesn’t mean that there’s nothing wrong with you making rape jokes that aren’t about your experiences. You aren’t the only rape victim out there.

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

But Ally, he IS! And how he feels about his rape is exactly how all of us feel about ours, so obviously we should be totally okay with his joking. It’s not like our good ol’ buddy diz would ever be an asshole or anything!

gillyrosebee
gillyrosebee
7 years ago

Yawn. dizzie, you are being tedious. Isn’t it past your bedtime already?

diz
diz
7 years ago

No you tool, I’m not saying that anything I have to say matters to Moobies. I’m saying that when he inevitably DOES lose his shit after his supposed feminist friends throw him under the bus, I want him to do it where I can watch and hopefully screencap it.

Anyway. Yeah, I’m aware that some of you might be offended by rape jokes. That was the point. Cripes, whats not to get about that?

diz
diz
7 years ago

I also don’t recall asking for permission to make such a joke. Don’t be so arrogant as to expect everyone else to fall in line with what you deem right and wrong.

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

when he inevitably DOES lose his shit after his supposed feminist friends throw him under the bus, I want him to do it where I can watch and hopefully screencap it.

You realize that Hugo Schwyzer got “thrown under the bus” for admitting he planned to kill his girlfriend, right? If we can’t kick someone out for attempted murder, what CAN we kick someone out for?

Yeah, I’m aware that some of you might be offended by rape jokes. That was the point.

You’re such a sweetheart. I feel so honored to share your presence, where you come to upset us, offend us, and wait for us to have meltdowns. Truly, my fellow Manboobzers, we are in the presence of someone great, a veritable duke among trolls. *rolls eyes*

*sigh* Where have all the DISTINGUISHED trolls gone? I remember the days when trolls were REAL trolls, prophesizing about superdogs and Section IX. Whatever happened to those halcyon days?

Ally S
7 years ago

Anyway. Yeah, I’m aware that some of you might be offended by rape jokes. That was the point. Cripes, whats not to get about that?

We do get why you used that word. And because of that, we’re calling you out for being an insensitive jerk. What’s not to get about that?

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

Don’t be so arrogant as to expect everyone else to fall in line with what you deem right and wrong.

Right and wrong? I just said you were an asshole. Ain’t nobody taking you to the Thought Police for being an asshole. We’re just calling you an asshole.

Ally S
7 years ago

I also don’t recall asking for permission to make such a joke. Don’t be so arrogant as to expect everyone else to fall in line with what you deem right and wrong.

We’re arrogant for expecting you to not be a jerk. Interesting.

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

Yeah, Ally, not like HIM! He’s not arrogant at all to come into someone else’s social space, making rape jokes, and get his jollies trying to piss us off. He’s a paragon of humility!

How boring. I won’t mind when David bans him for actually breaking one of the few rules here.

gillyrosebee
gillyrosebee
7 years ago

You know, there’s an interesting point there that MRAs seem to get stuck on. If a supposed feminist/ally gets called out for behaving in a radically unfeminist way (by, you know, trying to kill their girlfriend and then being all “poor me!!” about it instead of owning it, getting their head on properly and making honest and good-faith amends) MRAs are all “see the feminists attack and destroy one of their own!!” while the example of a feminist who doesn’t get called on their anti-feminist shit is proof positive that feminists are all EEEEEEEBIL!

It’s almost like something matters other than as an example of the category ‘things I can use to whine at feminists about online”.

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

RE: gillyrosebee

What I find most interesting is, can you IMAGINE what the MRM would do if, I dunno, GWW or one of the other Honey Badgers confessed to attempting to kill her boyfriend? They would FLIP THEIR SHIT. They’d froth at the mouth and gnash their teeth and have her out on her ass faster than you could say GTFO. Think about that shit earlier this year with Woolly Bumblebee. I can’t IMAGINE an MRA defending a Honey Badger who admitted to trying to kill their boyfriend for being a rape survivor.

And yet, feminists are supposed to be oh so evil and backstabby for doing that to Schwyzer. Hmmm….

Viscaria
Viscaria
7 years ago

Claims to care about rape + doesn’t give a shit about hurting rape victims beyond himself = unrepentant asshole.

pecunium
7 years ago

diz: Anyway. Yeah, I’m aware that some of you might be offended by rape jokes. That was the point. Cripes, whats not to get about that?

We got it. And we called you on it.

You

are

an

asshole.

This is not news.

You are too stupid to understand that you aren’t entitled to be an asshole without consequence. Here the consequence is to be mocked.

Schwyzer was an asshole: in lots of ways. A lot of feminists cut him slack for some of his asshole behaviors (I think they were wrong to do so; then again I’ve thought him an asshole for a long time; in part because he taught at a school I took classes in, so I was a bit more familiar with him; though I never took any classes from him [he wasn’t teaching classes on law, Russian, nor pottery]).

When he admitted to something which transcended asshole (by way of being a confession of attempted murder) most of those feminists decided maybe he was an asshole.

Even at at that a lot of them are still being a lot more forgiving than he deserves.

If Dave ever confesses to something like that… I’ll call him an asshole too.

gillyrosebee
gillyrosebee
7 years ago

What I find most interesting is, can you IMAGINE what the MRM would do if, I dunno, GWW or one of the other Honey Badgers confessed to attempting to kill her boyfriend? They would FLIP THEIR SHIT.

And they’d be right, at least about that. If they wanted to start calling out all of their members who admitted to trying to harm their partners, or shutting down folks who engage in masturbatory violence fantasies, or otherwise shunning folks who unrepentantly engage in abusive behavior, I’d have common cause with them. It’s a fair critique of one branch of contemporary feminism that H. Fucking S. got a pass from (some) feminists for as long as he did.

But instead they circle jerk over those violent fantasies and egg each other on, and hold those who are most excited by f**king other people up at the center of their movement, so they can step on all the legos (and land on all the cacti when they fall over) as far as I am concerned.

Ally S
7 years ago

[he wasn’t teaching classes on law, Russian, nor pottery]

Russian, law, and pottery.

What kind of degree were you aiming at? Because that sounds fucking awesome.

gillyrosebee
gillyrosebee
7 years ago

You know what? FTS. Speaking of dinner (which I’ve paid for my share of, btw), does anyone have good bean soup or casserole recipes? I now have about 28 cups of delicious homemade turkey/chicken stock and I want to make some soups or bean recipes (because I keep edging ever closer to becoming vegetarian) that I can freeze in individual servings and reheat for lunches.

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

Sorry, gillyrosebee. I have a stew recipe, but don’t really make much soup or casserole. (It is very good stew though.)

And yeah, I think it is a good critique of parts of feminism that Schwyzer was given the slack that he did. Just ugh. The whole thing gives me the creeps.

pecunium
7 years ago

Ally: I wasn’t pursuing a degree. Russian was maintenance, the legal classes and pottery were because I was interested.

pecunium
7 years ago

gilly: I’ll try to remember to write some up. Too fried right now.

Ally S
7 years ago

@pecunium

Ah, yeah I felt a little odd asking about degrees since I understand that college isn’t only about degrees. But I just asked that anyway because I didn’t know how else to convey what I meant.

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

Speaking of classes, I’m now in a position that maybe one day I’ll be able to afford to take a class or something! Probably not in art or anything… maybe just a community course in home repair or carpentry, something that’ll teach me a useful new skill. I’m really excited about that.

Ally S
7 years ago

That’s great, LBT! =D I bet a class like that would be fun, too.

gillyrosebee
gillyrosebee
7 years ago

LBT, stew works for me as well.

I ‘broke up’ with some feminist communities and sites when they were too willing to give HFS (I will not type out the f**ker’s name) a pass for too long, so I get you.

@ pecunium, I always wanted to learn Russian. I had a Russian colleague in grad school and she taught me some words as well as some simple grammar. Now all I can remember is ‘koshka’ (not sure about the cyrillic any more) which is “cat”, which is what she used to call my cat when she came over (“melaya koshka”, I think, which is like little baby cat?)

gillyrosebee
gillyrosebee
7 years ago

I have a (teenytiny) little bit of spare cash at the moment, and faced with the idea of paying down some debt or spending it on some practical thing, I am considering buying an acoustic guitar and learning to play it.

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

RE: gillyrosebee

In that case! My hubby’s stew recipe is as follows. (I’m just putting up enough for one meal, so multiply it according to your needs)

2-3 small potatoes, or one big one
1 carrot
leafy green thing, however much you want (spinach, pre-cooked kale, bok choy, spinach, all of these work)
a handful of mushrooms
tomato puree or sauce (though if you’re fond of the broth, you can ignore this)
a spoonful of honey or molasses (optional)
salt, pepper, cumin, hot harissa, and/or your spices of choice

Pour in just enough broth to keep your potatoes and carrots submerged, and raise to a boil. Keep adding broth as needed; I tend not to like it too watery, but no harm will come to you if you decide to do all the broth together. When the potatoes and carrots start getting soft, add the leafy green thing and mushrooms and spices, plus sauce and honey. Stir together, let cook for a minute, then take off the heat and OM NOM NOM!

This is also a good kitchen sink dish to get rid of leftover veggies and meat! We have met few things that couldn’t be worked into this dish somehow. Beans would have to be cooked beforehand, but if you have a big tin of them or something, that would go in fine.

This stew is delicious and filling, and goes best with nice crusty bread.

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

Yeah, Ally, I’m trying to take advantage of this time for me and learn some new skills, since customer service wrecks my mental health so quickly. Maybe I can learn a trade or something, or just generally learn more down-to-earth skills to cut down on expenses. I look forward to it!

gillyrosebee
gillyrosebee
7 years ago

LBT, I have leftover roasted potatoes (I use them as a ‘rack’ to cook the turkey) and bordeaux spinach and tuscan kale that I grow in the basement (housemate is very patient and indulgent with me, especially when I tell him that he and BoyToy can help themselves) as well as tomatoes from this summer’s garden that could be substituted for the puree, so I will be trying this, thanks!! I have black eyed peas that I can soak overnight and then add in, and I’ll try that and report back!

I also have a carefully cultivated sourdough starter, and I make regular loaves, especially through the winter, so crusty bread is no problem for me!

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

Perfect! You’re all set then. I don’t know if black eyed peas have protein; if not, I highly encourage adding some frozen edamame or other beans to it, just to round out and give yourself a fully balanced stew. And if the potatoes are already roasted, you can dump them in with the kale and stuff; otherwise they’ll turn to mush while the carrots cook.

gillyrosebee
gillyrosebee
7 years ago

Not as good as black beans but better than most, is the protein verdict (I think) for the cowpeas. I know they grow anywhere and are good as a post-garden fall crop (the last of them just died off in our recent freeze) so I love them. I put about two cups in to soak overnight. I still have the last of my purple dragon carrots and I’ll try those, and add the potatoes with the greens.

Thanks! I’m excited to try a new recipe!

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

Sweet! Hope you end up liking it! I should make some of my own, when I get a chance…

cloudiah
7 years ago

That stew sounds yummy.

diz
diz
7 years ago

You should call me an asshole again. It might hurt this time 🙁

Also, when did I say I was an MRA? I’m not really arguing a particular side here, I long ago gave up using logic and reasoning here. I’m simply mocking you for my amusement right now. One thing that I did learn in my time as a feminist is that some people are just better off being mocked than reasoned with, and if you can have a chuckle while doing it, why not?

Besides, its a joke, not a dick. Don’t take it so hard.

pecunium
7 years ago

ooh… the, “I used to be a feminist, now I insult them for “bashing” men, but I’m not taking any side here”.

As stated before, someone is lying.

I long ago gave up using logic and reasoning here.

FTFY,

Ally S
7 years ago

Besides, its a joke, not a dick. Don’t take it so hard.

Insensitive creep. GTFO

pecunium
7 years ago

It is, BTW, not a joke. It was a jibe.

You can’t even claim you were trying to be funny, and missed the mark; since you admit your intent wasn’t to amuse anyone* but rather to cause offense.

Honesty, it isn’t in you.

*save yourself

diz
diz
7 years ago

Oh, no no. I’m not trying to be funny for you. I am saying things that are funny to me, and I also find your reactions funny. There was a time when I would have shown more compassion here and not said such things for my own amusement, but I quickly learned that compassion is wasted here, and that most of you are the types who deserve all the bad things that happen to them in life.

So, if I am triggering anyone, I would be happy to hear of it 🙂

Ally S
7 years ago

If there’s anyone I want to teach me to be compassionate, it’s definitely the person who has a victim-blaming mindset and is okay with deliberately triggering victims of sexual violence who suffer from trauma. Yep.

diz
diz
7 years ago

Again, you misunderstand. I’m not interested in teaching any of you anything. I’m just killing a bit of time by watching terrible people suffer. Remember how glad everyone was to see Saddam swinging from a rope? Its kinda like that. I don’t feel bad in the slightest for saying terrible things to terrible people. Its kinda cathartic, actually. I can see how you guys get so addicted to being assholes all the time :3