So over in the Men’s Rights subreddit, the fellas are doing their best to address the burning Men’s Right issue of “date inequality,” or, as one recent poster put the question,“Hey feminists. How come men are still expected to pay for dates?”
I’m pretty sure that feminists aren’t the ones expecting men to pay for dates, so I’m not sure why feminists should be held to account for something they’re not doing, but in any case, the Men’s Rightsers don’t seem much interested in hearing explanations from feminists. No, they’re rather offer their own theories.
Enter a new convert to Men’s Rightsism called MrKocha, who enlists the aid of SCIENCE to offer his own explanation of this terrible date injustice:
I see a lot of problems with every day inequality between the sexes in mate interaction in various areas.
Attention, human female. Initiating mate interaction protocol.
First being, the average female has vastly different motivations in her mate selection. How much is nature vs nurture is up for debate, but I tend towards believing millions of years of evolution probably have left a significant mark there.
Huh. What are the odds that these millions of years of evolution just happen to line up with whatever regressive assertions about women — sorry, females — this dude is about to make?
Anyway her mate choice process often involves looking for signs of genetic fitness in male (attractive appearance, displayed dominance socially or physically, risk taking, higher social status), and weighing this against his ability to invest in her long term future: such as pay her dinner/bills). Paying for dinner displays two things: one a willingness to self sacrifice for women, and two the financial resources to continue to do so.
Let’s see. Human beings for the majority of their existence on this planet were hunters and gatherers. Even if we assume that men mainly did the hunting and women mainly did the gathering, the gathered food made up the bulk of the diet. So really, men on dates should expect women to bring them large salads in return for the carcass of a small mammal.
The second part of the problem is women also have a significantly stronger in group bias, to the point where considering points of view don’t immediately benefit females is actively more difficult.
Uh, I think you accidentally the sentence there.
The process of asking women to merely consider in the name of equality, whether there are social solutions to reduce inequalities between the sexes in mate selection scenarios commonly triggers a strong negative emotional response, that her ‘turf’ is under attack and whoever presents such a question is a threat.
Really? Lots of women have no fucking problem whatsoever with paying for dinner.
How women deal with this varies tremendously. Some experience a great deal of cognitive dissonance, denial, and explain away inequalities with whatever rationalization provides the most reassuring emotional responses.
Wait, are we talking about women or about MRAs now?
Some project their outgroup hatred upon whoever voices the opinion by attacking the individual with petty, poorly thought out attacks on their character.
He must be talking about MRAs, right?
Others, immediately jump miles past the idea of social equality being a noble (if potentially impossible goal), to the issue of consent, making accusations that somehow even considering the idea of more equality in gender relations is an attempt to violate consent of female mate choice? (MY CHOICE! DISCUSSION IS RAPEFUL!)
Um, how did we get from talking about dinner to talking about rape? Is he really suggesting that women have literally accused him of rape because he suggested they pay for their own dinner?
And finally, there do seem to a minority of women who are able to consider the issue rationally, even if it admittedly, challenges her immediate self interests and might be harder than other subjects to think about?
Wow, some women — albeit a minority — somehow manage not to be spiteful, narcissistic children! What a generous assessment of half the human race.
How to tackle the issue, when women potentially have 4 times the amount of in group preference, reinforced by feminist doctrine and a potential biological preference towards the behavior?
How is “getting dudes to pay for dinner” part of feminist doctrine exactly? I’m pretty sure The Rules isn’t a feminist manifesto.
All I can say is to continue to challenge any social doctrine that reinforces in group bias of women and praise women when they display the ability to think outside the spectrum of their immediate self interest even if ultimately there isn’t much other benefit to you?
Who’s a good woman for thinking outside the spectrum of her immediate self-interest? You’re a good woman for thinking outside the spectrum of your immediate self-interest!
Always try to keep in mind, that the negative responses, are basically a reflection of why the question is a valid one in the first place.
Exactly. Whenever women recoil in horror at some astoundingly misogynistic thing you’ve said, that just means you’re totally right!
In a followup comment, MrKocha returns to the notion that women love throwing around rape accusations, not only at men who argue with them about paying for dinner but at “sexually inexperienced men” generally. It’s bad enough that women aren’t attracted to these men, he argues, but
the amount of shame, condescension and hostility thrown their way is quite impressive.
It can range anywhere from rape accusations to golden ones like “I hope you never find someone and stay alone forever!”
Fun fact: each and every man on the planet earth, no matter how sexually experienced, was once a virgin. Somehow most of them managed to garner themselves a certain amount of sexual experience without being accused of rape and/or having women express the opinion that they should remain alone forever.
Assuming that McKocha is speaking from experience here, and assuming also (because I’m already disturbed enough by his comments) that the bit about the rape accusations is internet hyperbole, what exactly is causing all these women to get so angry at him?
I don’t think it’s the sexual inexperience. I think that maybe, possibly, it might be the fact that he obviously hates women?
Just a wild guess.
MrKocha started up a whole thread of his own to further discuss his scientific hypotheses about the human female and her mate choices. It’s called Females Oppressing Female Mate Choice. Because these evil females who put down sexually inexperienced men are also oppressing females who might choose to mate with these men!
Thanks to AgainstMensRights for clueing me in to the wonderfulness of MrKocha — here and here.
(Sorry, the above was in reply to Alice. Looks like WordPress Monster decided to spit up in my face.)
Well, that’s a new one on me. They do seem to come up with the most creative bullshit, I’ll give them that. Unfortunately, it’s just as much rape apologia as is the idea that you can’t rape a prostitute, you can only rob her of her fee. Bleh…
Bina – I’m everywhere. I think when I’m on break I’ll go back to teaching myself code. I was doing HTML in the last legs of summer, going to move on to CSS next, and then Javascript (so that I can code things for my blog), C++, and Python. And Perl.
Aw man! I missed a John Donne talk!
Let me get one comment in; I love how his later poems about God were really sexy. He didn’t even wrap it up in innuendo.
“Except you’enthrall mee, never shall be free,
Nor ever chast, except you ravish mee.”
Oh my!
Yup, John Donne was great that way. Turned all conventional expectations on their ears, which may be why he got into so much trouble.
I have to confess that his best poem, for me anyway, was this one-liner he wrote when separated (very much against his will) from his wife: “John Donne — Anne Donne — undone.”
Wait… Am I imagining things, or was there someone on here recently saying MRAs don’t talk about silly shit like paying for dinner?
@mildymagnificent – so, insurance fail even for people who have it. And having to pay back Centrelink, urgh. I worked for them in 2000. Lasted six months before I walked out (best paid job I’d ever had, too) because it was such a punitive fucking system I came to hate it from behind the desk even more than from in front of it.
Campers! I bought a pair of them in LA last time I was there. They got comfy really quickly. Bought a pair in town a few months back, same design, and wore them briefly for the first time the other day – OW. Instant blisters and incredibly tight. They’re gonna take a lot of breaking in. I hope the Converse I bought last night stretch more easily. At least they’re not hurting right now!
@Gethsemani – yes, you are freaks of nature! Or betraying the dudebros, or the wimminz hivemind, or something.
BTW, have you had your Welcome Package yet? 🙂
@ceebarks – argh, how embarrassing. I’d hate to do the dinner-and-movie date (I go to a movie once in a year at most) – too awkward if you don’t know someone well enough to talk easily, and I’d feel sort of trapped. Not in a sense of being in danger, just in a “God this is boring and I can’t easily wind it up and leave” way.
Oh, they talk about it, all right. I don’t know who made that claim (missed it amid all the morass), but MRAs are hopping mad that they have to do anything at all, whether it be washing their own dirty socks, or paying for dinner, or holding up their end of sex instead of just being serviced in tribute to their Natural Superiority™.
Yea! THAT guy!
For me, a date usually means going to pub and taking turns paying for rounds, or watching a movie at someone’s house and ordering pizza. Rarely, if ever, would we be going out to a big fancy dinner, and like someone else here said, that certainly wouldn’t be a “first date” thing, it would be a “we’ve been dating for a long time” thing.
These guys. They’re so adorable sometimes. It’s like they’ve never actually been on a date in their lives and have no idea what they’re talking about.
Oh yea, and I can pay for my own damn pizza!
Bina,
I had a guy tell me one time that his wife turning him down for sex was “sexual harassment.” I have seen other guys (mostly married) call it “theft.” ( QUOTE ME)
Well, that’s a new one on me. They do seem to come up with the most creative bullshit, I’ll give them that. Unfortunately, it’s just as much rape apologia as is the idea that you can’t rape a prostitute, you can only rob her of her fee. Bleh…(QUOTE YOU)
Its a pretty common belief in some Christian circles .(the conservatives of course) and a lot of these guys happen to love the MRA .
The idea of course it after you are married your bodies aren’t yours anymore it belongs to the other . So withholding sex of course is taking something away from them that doesn’t belong to you . Neat huh?
Thats why a lot of these guys are PISSED off ‘attractive” YOUNG women aren’t lining up to marry them But they forgot about this law called spousal rape..And the “older women” (30 +) get “the sex” up front because she most likely isn’t looking for marriage .
They honestly look at women and marriage as “for sex.”
Then they like to pretend. (I think its some sort of fear tactic which wont work) women who put off marriage until early 30’s are left out in the cold. No what is left out in the cold is their entitled /bitter woman hating dicks.
So lets start protesting about how DONT EXPECT US TO BUY YOU DINNER THEN ! WAHHH! See TWO can play at that game ! NO MORE FREE DINNERS! The time for EQUALITY and the OPRESSION of men at the hands of fem Nazi’s to END!
We’re not going to take this ANYMORE!
“Auggziliary, that’s normal dating stuff for me as well (at 20).
For me a date is usually going out for a drink, going out for dinner is something that you would be more likely to do once you are in an actual relationship, or at least had been dating for a while.
For my friends in their mid to late 20’s it’s much the same, I think it’s mostly people over that age who do dinner for early-stage dates.
And my dates with my boyfriend have consisted entirely of watching Sailor Moon and eating 😛 but then I’d known him for a year before we started going out so we haven’t had the “dating” stage.
Well, I’m in my 20’s, and all that sounds sweet to me! That’s definitely the kind of thing I usually do too, and cooking together is always way more fun than going out to dinner.
Marry him.
Replace Sailor Moon with something like Dragon Ball Z and that sounds like something I’d want to do on dates. =P
Augzillary :Ive been dating a guy for 2+ years, and our dates are literally just driving around town and looking at stuff, and stopping for food occasionally. It sounds dumb, but it’s fun. Also we spend a ton of time in this one pet store because we both love bunnies. END
My son who’s only 17 has been “dating” his GF for about a year now. He doesn’t even have his liscence yet LOL>>(will in Jan) .She is 17 she also doesn’t drive .Neither work yet .Hello WE pay for their romancing (and her parents too) ..LOL>>They have only been to dinner once (alone for homecoming) .
What they like to do is go to anime conventions.(they dress as characters they like) Hang out watching movies at home. Talking for hours .He helps her die her hair (which she dyes often because she has black hair with blue highlights ) .They take walks .They do crafts like make matching tie dyed t-shirts. They invite mutual friends over to hang out .(we get them pizza) Her dad cooks authentic Asian cuisine at her house and they eat together at the table.
Speaking of girls paying ? We took her to dinner with us for my son’s 17th (he will be 18 in FEB) .Anyway at the end of the meal she pulled our her purse and took out a debit card and offered to pay for her meal . Seriously she made no assumptions that we were even going to pay for her dinner even though it was his birthday dinner we invited her to.
I realize they are young .But that’s more of a modern snapshot of how young people “court” .
We aren’t expected to pay the “bride price” (dowery) for a virgin.
She is not running around looking for a 40 yo man to pay for her dinner.And trust me they gladly would do so to have a chance with her .She happens to be not only young (and of age of consent) she a stunning knockout .She is half Japanese /1/2 white .With an hour glass figure to go with her drop dead gorgeous face.
NAH!
Hey look what I’ve just found:
http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/meet-the-author-behind-the-viral-5-reasons-to-date-a-girl-wi
Choice quotes include:
“I credit my fine education in the liberal arts for my above-average writing abilities”
“The ’90s were a fruitful time for angsty, depressing girl music that I’m sufficiently comfortable in my manliness to admit I enjoy.”
I can’t fucking believe that Roosh’s article had a objectifying picture of a woman making herself vomit. He is complete scum.
histrophillia – Ew. Ew ew ew ew ew.
When I was dating my husband a LONG time ago LOL>>(80’s) .Yeah he did mostly pay .Back then that was still sort of the cultural norm. It makes me sort of feel old and silly now .But anyway my husband didn’t begrudge it .
Having said that the things we did ? This whole ‘dinner” thing is so narrow minded and Im sorry “boring.” We went fishing together .We had picnics in the park and fed the ducks.We went horseback riding. We did go to lunch together almost every day because at one point we worked to the same company then later only blocks apart. We hung out at each others houses and went swimming together. We went bowling .(we both loved to bowl) and putt putt.Movies .
But we were also planning on marrying . We got engaged (officially ) when I was about 19.I had been saving my money .(while he paid for the dates LOL) and I put the down payment on our house when I was 19 years old .($5000.00) And we split the mortgage (he lived there I didn’t my mother would not let us shack up) and we got married when I was 20 he 22.
If I could go back though LOL>>>I would have slowed our whole relationship down .I felt very pressured to marry him . Not that I didn’t love him .I just felt I wasn’t really ready .He pushed for marriage .(no he wasn’t 40 he was a teen too when we met).We were to immature.Caused lots of problems for us to jump into that big of a commitment .I felt sort of suffocated borderline trapped.There is more to the story but I have already said enough.
Lets put it this way . I am opposed for the average young person to leap into marriage and especially start having children right away . I believe in LONG LONG “courtships.”
What these guys promote short courtships and marrying even before 20 makes my stomach to a flip flop.
This guy thinks he’s helping to create a “safe space” for men? Ugh, I can’t even with this bullshit.
My last date involved teaching basic fencing to groups of children in an attempt to help them through a week of knightly themes for a school project. While asking personal questions when you’re dodging swords is hard, it still beats candlelight by a large margin. Hey, if someone can stab you in the chest with a rapier one second and then hold the hand of a sad boy who got hit in the head the next, then damn, how could you not develop a massive crush? q:
Endless quibbles about paying for dinner is one part of complaints about courtship I haven’t been able to understand. I have literally no memory involving me being the sole person responsible for paying for something edible in a date-like context, or being in a situation where the onus were somehow on me to pay / offer to pay for food in an informal, crushingly traditional way. I like to imagine this isn’t because I’m some stingy miser, because I’ve paid for plenty of food over time, but just… my friends do things in return and anyone I’ve ever considered dating has done just the same. Cool girl once gave me the keys to her house so I’d have a place to sleep while working for a week.
Maybe it’s a cultural thing? Hell, the last few times I was at a bar several women bought me drinks. It’s almost as if complaints about dinner is some excuse to dig up archaic analogies to puff up a stodgy worldview! Gasp.
Or maybe MRA’s are just sometimes bad at dates. That could be the explanation here. No one told them: “Hey, you don’t have to bankrupt yourself impressing someone. Grab a loaf of bread and go have a picnic”
If bullshit were an energy source, Roosh would be goddamn Electro.
Call me unfair, but in the case of MRAs though, I kind of assume they think date MUST = mid range to expensive dinner, followed by a movie, because that provides an easy, socially acceptable template for them that doesn’t necessarily have to include a lot of conversation. They can’t just meet someone for coffee to chat because they don’t actually care about getting to know someone as a potential partner. They just want a “mate”. So those template dates are an easy way to give off the appearance of getting to know someone and treating them well, without actually having to talk to them all that much or really view them as human beings.
Plus, wanting to just meet someone for a coffee or walk in the park and a chat also IMHO necessitates an assumption that the other person is a human who wants to connect with another human. Much harder for the MRA types who need to mentally strip women of their humanity by trying to paint them as lying, cheating, gold-digging monsters who just want to be wined and dined.
In short, they aren’t really pissed about spending so much money (supposedly), it just seems they’re pissed that other people assume dating is about getting to know someone, instead of being about a dude purchasing sex from a woman via an overpriced dinner.
Gawd, every time you think he can’t possibly get any creepier . . . (sorry, I just called Roosh creepy . . . that means this must be an unsafe space for men).