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Men’s Rights Redditor explains the mate choice process of the human female, and also why she won’t pay for dinner

Stick-up females waiting for men to bring them dead animals for dinner.
Stuck-up females waiting for men to bring them dead animals for dinner.

So over in the Men’s Rights subreddit, the fellas are doing their best to address the burning Men’s Right issue of “date inequality,” or, as one recent poster put the question,“Hey feminists. How come men are still expected to pay for dates?”

I’m pretty sure that feminists aren’t the ones expecting men to pay for dates, so I’m not sure why feminists should be held to account for something they’re not doing, but in any case, the Men’s Rightsers don’t seem much interested in hearing explanations from feminists. No, they’re rather offer their own theories.

Enter a new convert to Men’s Rightsism called MrKocha, who enlists the aid of SCIENCE to offer his own explanation of this terrible date injustice:

I see a lot of problems with every day inequality between the sexes in mate interaction in various areas.

Attention, human female. Initiating mate interaction protocol.

First being, the average female has vastly different motivations in her mate selection. How much is nature vs nurture is up for debate, but I tend towards believing millions of years of evolution probably have left a significant mark there.

Huh. What are the odds that these millions of years of evolution just happen to line up with whatever regressive assertions about women — sorry, females — this dude is about to make?

Anyway her mate choice process often involves looking for signs of genetic fitness in male (attractive appearance, displayed dominance socially or physically, risk taking, higher social status), and weighing this against his ability to invest in her long term future: such as pay her dinner/bills). Paying for dinner displays two things: one a willingness to self sacrifice for women, and two the financial resources to continue to do so.

Let’s see. Human beings for the majority of their existence on this planet were hunters and gatherers. Even if we assume that men mainly did the hunting and women mainly did the gathering, the gathered food made up the bulk of the diet. So really, men on dates should expect women to bring them large salads in return for the carcass of a small mammal.

The second part of the problem is women also have a significantly stronger in group bias, to the point where considering points of view don’t immediately benefit females is actively more difficult.

Uh, I think you accidentally the sentence there.

The process of asking women to merely consider in the name of equality, whether there are social solutions to reduce inequalities between the sexes in mate selection scenarios commonly triggers a strong negative emotional response, that her ‘turf’ is under attack and whoever presents such a question is a threat.

Really? Lots of women have no fucking problem whatsoever with paying for dinner.

How women deal with this varies tremendously. Some experience a great deal of cognitive dissonance, denial, and explain away inequalities with whatever rationalization provides the most reassuring emotional responses.

Wait, are we talking about women or about MRAs now?

Some project their outgroup hatred upon whoever voices the opinion by attacking the individual with petty, poorly thought out attacks on their character.

He must be talking about MRAs, right?

Others, immediately jump miles past the idea of social equality being a noble (if potentially impossible goal), to the issue of consent, making accusations that somehow even considering the idea of more equality in gender relations is an attempt to violate consent of female mate choice? (MY CHOICE! DISCUSSION IS RAPEFUL!)

Um, how did we get from talking about dinner to talking about rape? Is he really suggesting that women have literally accused him of rape because he suggested they pay for their own dinner?

And finally, there do seem to a minority of women who are able to consider the issue rationally, even if it admittedly, challenges her immediate self interests and might be harder than other subjects to think about?

Wow, some women — albeit a minority — somehow manage not to be spiteful, narcissistic children! What a generous assessment of half the human race.

How to tackle the issue, when women potentially have 4 times the amount of in group preference, reinforced by feminist doctrine and a potential biological preference towards the behavior?

How is “getting dudes to pay for dinner” part of feminist doctrine exactly? I’m pretty sure The Rules isn’t a feminist manifesto.

All I can say is to continue to challenge any social doctrine that reinforces in group bias of women and praise women when they display the ability to think outside the spectrum of their immediate self interest even if ultimately there isn’t much other benefit to you?

Who’s a good woman for thinking outside the spectrum of her immediate self-interest? You’re a good woman for thinking outside the spectrum of your immediate self-interest!

Always try to keep in mind, that the negative responses, are basically a reflection of why the question is a valid one in the first place.

Exactly. Whenever women recoil in horror at some astoundingly misogynistic thing you’ve said, that just means you’re totally right!

In a followup comment, MrKocha returns to the notion that women love throwing around rape accusations, not only at men who argue with them about paying for dinner but at “sexually inexperienced men” generally. It’s bad enough that women aren’t attracted to these men, he argues, but

the amount of shame, condescension and hostility thrown their way is quite impressive.

It can range anywhere from rape accusations to golden ones like “I hope you never find someone and stay alone forever!”

Fun fact: each and every man on the planet earth, no matter how sexually experienced, was once a virgin. Somehow most of them managed to garner themselves a certain amount of sexual experience without being accused of rape and/or having women express the opinion that they should remain alone forever.

Assuming that McKocha is speaking from experience here, and assuming also (because I’m already disturbed enough by his comments) that the bit about the rape accusations is internet hyperbole, what exactly is causing all these women to get so angry at him?

I don’t think it’s the sexual inexperience. I think that maybe, possibly, it might be the fact that he obviously hates women?

Just a wild guess.

MrKocha started up a whole thread of his own to further discuss his scientific hypotheses about the human female and her mate choices. It’s called Females Oppressing Female Mate Choice. Because these evil females who put down sexually inexperienced men are also oppressing females who might choose to mate with these men!

Thanks to AgainstMensRights for clueing me in to the wonderfulness of MrKocha — here and here.

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CassandraSays
7 years ago

@ Alice

Did you see the old threads where a former troll insisted that the reason he was a shitty writer was because of his misandrist English teacher? Good times.

Oh, sorry. GUd tmes..?!..

Gizwardo
Gizwardo
7 years ago

0.o The fuck I just read?

Ally S
7 years ago

Activism. THAT’S WHAT!

Alice Sanguinaria
7 years ago

CassandraSays – No, although I would totally not be surprised.

Usually for old threads, I don’t read the comments because then I might accidentally necro it.

Quackers
Quackers
7 years ago

As well, if women’s preferences were set in stone, why do they complain about them so much? Maybe they think that they can change it? But wouldn’t that mean that there is a cultural aspect and it isn’t “all natural”? But then why should we change it in the direction they want?

They complain because it doesn’t suit them. Not everyone is a rich “alpha” male, so what do men have to do? well at worse they have to completely remove all women’s rights in order to give them no choice but to depend on a man for survival, so this includes the so called beta males who will, of course be allowed to work and secure income (because they are men). Granted I’ll admit these are the more extreme MRAs/manosphere men who truly don’t see women as human beings (the heartistes and the dooshes), but rather sex objects and walking wombs that they need to secure, rights and freedom of theirs be damned. That’s what they mean when they say “hypergamy needs to be kept in check” yeah, by completely forcing women to be dependent on men. I fucking dare them to try. Reddit MRAs are not AS overt with is, but the whole underlying framework is still there.

Its all such bullshit at the end though because one thing proves them wrong. The fact that
poor men have ALWAYS had relationships and kids. Even today. And to my knowledge, don’t economically disadvantaged couples actually have MORE children? I think the reason they overlook this is because average to unattractive women are invisible to them, and because gorgeous women usually seem to date gorgeous men (and vice versca) they get stuck in this thinking.

Also, from what I have studied (which is limited enough that I could be wrong), the dichotomy nature/nurture doesn’t make any sense anymore.
I think that we are completely the product of evolution. However, we have evolved as social animal with high brain plasticity, so behaviour is not necessarily preprogrammed per se. Instead, we are ‘programmed’ to adapt to our social environment. This whole gendered evolution doesn’t make much sense either, it’s not like the mother’s DNA only reaches daughters and vice versa (except for Goldsperm, who only has male ancestors).

and those who are able to adapt, are the ones who spread their genes, right? and guess who has the most trouble adapting? guys like this. I just don’t get it, if you don’t want to pay for dinner, don’t pay for dinner. But they want pornstar level attractive women, and damn those women for being in high demand thus probably having higher expectations of men!

Anyway my studies *coughreadingontheinternetcough* is probably more limited than yours, so I might be thinking of adapt in a different sense?

CassandraSays
7 years ago

Trying to think of cases where I’ve allowed men to pay for dinner in a non-reciprocal way. The only ones I can remember were with guys who because of cultural programming got really super offended by the idea of a woman trying to pay for dinner, and I gave up arguing and just let them do it. Even in those cases I sneakily paid for our coffee/drinks when they weren’t looking.

Quackers
Quackers
7 years ago

@wordsp1nner

I feel really sorry for that poor fishie. Probably especially because I love fishies and when fish lose some scales, like from scraping against a rock or something, it looks painful. I dunno, Paging Argenti…do you feel extra sorry for the rainbow fish?

Bina
Bina
7 years ago
Quackers
Quackers
7 years ago

@Cassandra

Don’t forget the often contradicting advice to women saying let the man pay because it makes them feel manly. This is why I don’t follow BS dating advice anymore, everyone is different. I just do what feels right for me and try to be fair and egalitarian.

Alice Sanguinaria
7 years ago

Bina – Why am I not surprised?

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

I’ve never been able to keep track of it. I just always paid my own way, except in very select circumstances.

Chaos Engineer
Chaos Engineer
7 years ago

The process of asking women to merely consider in the name of equality, whether there are social solutions to reduce inequalities between the sexes in mate selection scenarios commonly triggers a strong negative emotional response, that her ‘turf’ is under attack and whoever presents such a question is a threat.

“I’d like to ask to you merely consider in the name of equality whether there are social solutions to reduce inequalities, blah blah blah, mate selection scenarios, will you go out with me?”

I guess I’ve got to agree with him. That probably does trigger a strong negative response.

CassandraSays
7 years ago

It’s so weird how people have a strong negative emotional reaction when they say “no, I don’t want to go out with you” and you respond with “that is not an acceptable answer, you must allow me to fuck you in the name of equality”.

Ally S
7 years ago

I fucking shudder at the thought of a guy calling me his “mate.” Maybe I’m overreacting but it sounds really objectifying to me.

CassandraSays
7 years ago

When they start babbling about mating I just get this song stuck in my head.

Ally S
7 years ago

[Content note: sexual assault]

I think the main reason it feels objectifying is that, if someone sees me as merely a “mate”, it’s as though that person just sees me as some kind of thing, not a human being. The thought of someone persistently seeing me as a mere “mate” and ignoring my boundaries while I try to enforce them terrifies me.

Oh dear, I seem to be talking a lot about boundaries and sex lately. I apologize if I’m making anyone feel weird, since I usually never talk about that.

wordsp1nner
wordsp1nner
7 years ago

CassandraSays,

Hey, that’s not fair. The song’s just so hilarious that I’d probably sleep with someone who tried those lines on me (if they actually wrote it, naturally–no fair encouraging laziness). And its just so… unabashedly all about being horny.

I feel the same way about John Donne’s The Flea.

babsbeaty (@babsbeaty)

In my dating experience the guys bitched about how expensive dating is and how women have all the advantages and can have sex anytime they want were the same guys who got offended when I offered to pay or split the cost.

Guys who were fine with me paying were the same guys who didn’t pressure me for sex or complain about other women (real or theoretical). And, coincidentally were the guys who I’d most likely get busy with.

Except for the guy who asked me out for drinks, complained about his elderly mother, told me about the time he showed up at his ex’s place with a knife and then informed me he did not have any money, so I’d have to pay. THAT was a fun night.

Unimaginative
Unimaginative
7 years ago

Ally, it helps a lot to say out loud what your boundaries are, and to say (okay, well, type) out loud that something that happened to you was wrong, and it hurt you. This is actually a very safe space to say those things, and get validation. And I think it’s REALLY important to do the emotional work you’re doing here before you transition fully (although feel free to correct me, people who have transitioned — I’m just thinking that the changing hormones will be problematic enough without getting triggered by past history that you haven’t death with).

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

I can’t help but wonder what folks are doing wrong, if they keep going on dates they consider so expensive. I mean, Jeez, you could always just go on a hike, or rent a movie from the library. You know, like we bums do.

Alice Sanguinaria
7 years ago

wordsp1nner – Plot summary of “The Flea”:

“You are a drop of blood, and my bed is a flea, and you and I will mingle together in the flea for it has sucked you and me and as such you should sleep with me, and yes you just killed the flea, but that means your fears should not impede you from having sex with me.”

I find it hilarious that John Donne later on became a monk and started writing poems about the glory of God.

Unimaginative
Unimaginative
7 years ago

LBT, dontcha know? A date isn’t about spending time with a person whose company you enjoy. It’s about showing off your Masterful Mate Potential. Like, showing everyone around how rich you are and how you can attract superior feeeeemales. And that takes money, honey. Otherwise, how will you know it was a successful date?

Gia
Gia
7 years ago

I was 16 years old and I had no problem whatsoever with paying my share when I would go out with my then boyfriend for a Pepsi or something, and I didn’t even know I was a feminist back then, tough I was already forming my own set of principles which were quite feminist, so where from all this bullshit that I was somehow “biologically programmed” to expect the guy to always pay for me… ?

But then again, I must have been a misandrist little “bitch” for not letting the boyfriend be “the man” *barfs*

… but I would have been a misandrist little “bitch” even if I let him pay for everything

Hmmm..

Maybe I should just have accepted that I am “biologically programmed” to be a submissive “female” becuz SCIENCE, drop the whole Pepsi thing, got on my knees and suck his dick since he was such a “nice guy”.

Seriously, these people are truly idiots, they are so extremly desperate for sex that they began deluding themselves they are actually entitled to receive it from women becuz dey teh menz.

BritterSweet
BritterSweet
7 years ago

Regarding Rainbow Fish, I did get the intended message on sharing from the book. But the cartoon adaptation makes the unintended creepy message on giving away body parts much more obvious. I especially remember Rainbow Fish singing the lines, “Now I don’t mean just sharing things, like toys upon a shelf. The thing that’s most important is what you give of yourself,” while the other fish crowd around him and form a dust cloud. It was meant to tell you that friendship is more than just sharing material things. But still…

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

RE: Unimaginative

Well, that sounds boring and unpleasant. How glad I am that MY date with hubby tomorrow will involve watching surfer boys kiss. It sounds much more fun.

wordsp1nner
wordsp1nner
7 years ago

Alice,

When we studied that in high school, when we read the Flea my teacher said, “If you’re giggling that means you get it.”

And I checked Wikipedia–it looks like John Donne became a CofE cleric, which means he was not under a vow of chastity, but only after he was widowed. He’d also lost several children, and nearly committed suicide. I think he loved his wife deeply.

I think his poetry kind of follows a life path–you get the young stuff, which is all about getting laid, then some beautiful love poetry (the one where he compared himself and his wife to a compass, the kind you draw with–far apart, but always connected… sigh) then meditations on religion and death.

Or, as we used to joke, he was either writing about getting laid or getting saved.

Um… I clearly love John Donne’s poetry.

Seranvali
Seranvali
7 years ago

LBT said:

“Maybe this guy is talking about how a lot of folks pay for dinner because they feel worried they’ll be pressured into sex otherwise? And somehow he totally turned this upside-down? Or something?”

You’re right. When I was dating mumblemumblemumble years ago this was exactly what I though and the reason I always paid for my own meal. Unless he was skint. Then I paid for his as well because hey, I had no expectations except spending a pleasant evening with a friend.

Alice Sanguinaria
7 years ago

“A Validation Forbidding Mourning”, right?

I must have misremembered that detail. Whoops.

I do enjoy poetry though, and I enjoyed reading John Donne’s work when I was in AP Lit in high school/Medieval Literature in college. I’m very, very, very fond of “The Flea” though. 😛

Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

“Paging Argenti…do you feel extra sorry for the rainbow fish?”

I haven’t read it, but the idea of a fish intentionally removing its scales…*shudders* that’d be fishie suicide. Fuck, ich is deadly mostly because it’ll do exactly that — all those tiny wounds add up to one very ill fish.

And what’s puff supposed to do? My little guy is scaleless in the first place! (Also, I can’t imagine him sharing, seeing how I have to ration snails or he’ll gorge on them)

CassandraSays
7 years ago

Eek. That Rainbow Fish thing sounds like the message I’d have taken would have been “Be really wary of getting close to people, because they’ll demand that you give them bits of your skin and it’ll be like something out of Hellraiser and argh I think I’m going to go hide in my room now”.

Cliff Pervocracy (@pervocracy)

How freakin’ nice are these dinners, to be such a big deal? I mean, for the level of gratitude these guys expect, you’d think we were talking three meals a day, lobster every lunch and steak every dinner. Self-sacrifice! Financial commitment! OH THE AGONY OF SUPPORTING THIS WOMAN IN THE MANNER TO WHICH SHE IS ACCUSTOMED!

…We’re actually talking about like $15 every other Friday night, aren’t we.

Cliff Pervocracy (@pervocracy)

Hey, thought: if paying for dinner is such an agony, why not just make dinner? You’re still buying the groceries, yeah, but it’s a lot cheaper and a lot of women will be impressed by a guy cookie for them.

Cliff Pervocracy (@pervocracy)

….yes. “by a guy cookie for them.” Exactly what I meant. I should be getting ready for bed.

CassandraSays
7 years ago

Given that they expect sex afterwards what they want is basically a sex worker who’ll work for $5 an hour.

babsbeaty (@babsbeaty)

I will admit I do find men who cook for me very charming. One sweet guy really wanted to impress me, but didn’t have much. So he made cinnamon toast, in the middle of the afternoon.

We all have our price I guess, and some of us can be had for cinnamon toast.

vaiyt
7 years ago

All these biotruthisms that equate human societal standards of success with natural selection are bogus shit and everyone spouting them should take remedial population genetics.

Alice Sanguinaria
7 years ago

Cliff – Maybe cooking for a girl is MISANDRY!™ or something?

CassandraSays – $5? You sure MRAs want to spend that much?

CassandraSays
7 years ago

Well, bear in mind that they’re still complaining that the sex isn’t “free” and they’re being forced to “pay” for it by taking women to Applebees.

wordsp1nner
wordsp1nner
7 years ago

… Wasn’t the last thread about a MRA who celebrated being in a position where women had to sleep with him for food?

It’s not just that they fuck for food.

Well, that answered that question.

cloudiah
7 years ago

“by a guy cookie for them.”

Buy a guy cookie for me!

So, I’m feeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeemale and I do have one male friend who often insists on buying my dinner when we go out, because he makes about twice as much as I do and wants to go to much fancier places than I would pick. So I let him pay for those dinners, but I sneakily buy movie tickets when we go to matinees.

My sister just bought me dinner, and 2 glasses of wine. I am not sure what I owe her.

CassandraSays
7 years ago

My sister just bought me dinner, and 2 glasses of wine. I am not sure what I owe her.

Given the kind of guys we’re talking about I’m not sure you really want to know the answer to that question.

cloudiah
7 years ago

BTW that guy friend is gay, as in homosexual, as in we do neither-of-us want to have sex with each other but we’ve been friends forever and I took him to his last colonoscopy appointment and he will take me to mine. Friendship. And colonoscopies. That’s what life’s about, folks.

cloudiah
7 years ago

Blech. I love my sister, but NOT THAT WAY.

CassandraSays
7 years ago

Don’t some MRAs think that gay men resent the women they hang out with for not offering to sex them up too? I’m still scratching my head about that one.

cloudiah
7 years ago

I am sure MRAs have all kind of fucked up ideas about gay men. I’ve seen my friend through losing his lover to AIDS, finding out he was HIV positive, finding out he had lymphoma, having a heart attack, and more. And he’s seen me through stuff. And I am 100% positive that he doesn’t want me to offer to sex him up.

kittehserf
7 years ago

Totally OT, I’m trying to find a pic of the shoes I bought tonight. These aren’t them, but omg so gorgeous:

http://img.loveitsomuch.com/uploads/201209/07/re/red%20and%20burgundy%20leather%20flapper%20style%20oxford%20heels%207-f47108.jpg

kittehserf
7 years ago

As well, if women’s preferences were set in stone, why do they complain about them so much? Maybe they think that they can change it? But wouldn’t that mean that there is a cultural aspect and it isn’t “all natural”? But then why should we change it in the direction they want?

Ahahaha, because women’s set-in-stone preferences are “No MRAs, thank you!”

Alice Sanguinaria
7 years ago

I don’t think the MRA movement is a good place for gay men either. This is the same group who said that we should totally have same-sex (to say nothing about same-gender) marriage… but because that way straight men can marry each other (but totally no homo!) and not have to risk marriage to those pesky gold-digging women.

CassandraSays
7 years ago

I can’t remember…what is it that they think they’ll get out of marriage to someone who they’re not attracted to or romantically interested in? The tax breaks aren’t THAT good.

toujoursgai
7 years ago

For me, the issue with other people buying me stuff is that it makes me feel like a child. I hadn’t even considered that they might now assume I owe them sex; I guess I’m naive. But when another person pays for the meal, it makes me feel like a kid eating out with their parents, and that is not a feeling that puts me in the mood for sexytimes.

Oh, and I liked the rainbow fish book when I was a kid. I don’t think I ever actually read it, though. It just had really shiny pictures.