Categories
antifeminism boner rage consent is hard creepy evil sexy ladies evo psych fairy tales female beep boop grandiosity it's science! men who should not ever be with women ever misogyny MRA rape culture reddit straw feminists virgin shaming

Men’s Rights Redditor explains the mate choice process of the human female, and also why she won’t pay for dinner

Stick-up females waiting for men to bring them dead animals for dinner.
Stuck-up females waiting for men to bring them dead animals for dinner.

So over in the Men’s Rights subreddit, the fellas are doing their best to address the burning Men’s Right issue of “date inequality,” or, as one recent poster put the question,“Hey feminists. How come men are still expected to pay for dates?”

I’m pretty sure that feminists aren’t the ones expecting men to pay for dates, so I’m not sure why feminists should be held to account for something they’re not doing, but in any case, the Men’s Rightsers don’t seem much interested in hearing explanations from feminists. No, they’re rather offer their own theories.

Enter a new convert to Men’s Rightsism called MrKocha, who enlists the aid of SCIENCE to offer his own explanation of this terrible date injustice:

I see a lot of problems with every day inequality between the sexes in mate interaction in various areas.

Attention, human female. Initiating mate interaction protocol.

First being, the average female has vastly different motivations in her mate selection. How much is nature vs nurture is up for debate, but I tend towards believing millions of years of evolution probably have left a significant mark there.

Huh. What are the odds that these millions of years of evolution just happen to line up with whatever regressive assertions about women — sorry, females — this dude is about to make?

Anyway her mate choice process often involves looking for signs of genetic fitness in male (attractive appearance, displayed dominance socially or physically, risk taking, higher social status), and weighing this against his ability to invest in her long term future: such as pay her dinner/bills). Paying for dinner displays two things: one a willingness to self sacrifice for women, and two the financial resources to continue to do so.

Let’s see. Human beings for the majority of their existence on this planet were hunters and gatherers. Even if we assume that men mainly did the hunting and women mainly did the gathering, the gathered food made up the bulk of the diet. So really, men on dates should expect women to bring them large salads in return for the carcass of a small mammal.

The second part of the problem is women also have a significantly stronger in group bias, to the point where considering points of view don’t immediately benefit females is actively more difficult.

Uh, I think you accidentally the sentence there.

The process of asking women to merely consider in the name of equality, whether there are social solutions to reduce inequalities between the sexes in mate selection scenarios commonly triggers a strong negative emotional response, that her ‘turf’ is under attack and whoever presents such a question is a threat.

Really? Lots of women have no fucking problem whatsoever with paying for dinner.

How women deal with this varies tremendously. Some experience a great deal of cognitive dissonance, denial, and explain away inequalities with whatever rationalization provides the most reassuring emotional responses.

Wait, are we talking about women or about MRAs now?

Some project their outgroup hatred upon whoever voices the opinion by attacking the individual with petty, poorly thought out attacks on their character.

He must be talking about MRAs, right?

Others, immediately jump miles past the idea of social equality being a noble (if potentially impossible goal), to the issue of consent, making accusations that somehow even considering the idea of more equality in gender relations is an attempt to violate consent of female mate choice? (MY CHOICE! DISCUSSION IS RAPEFUL!)

Um, how did we get from talking about dinner to talking about rape? Is he really suggesting that women have literally accused him of rape because he suggested they pay for their own dinner?

And finally, there do seem to a minority of women who are able to consider the issue rationally, even if it admittedly, challenges her immediate self interests and might be harder than other subjects to think about?

Wow, some women — albeit a minority — somehow manage not to be spiteful, narcissistic children! What a generous assessment of half the human race.

How to tackle the issue, when women potentially have 4 times the amount of in group preference, reinforced by feminist doctrine and a potential biological preference towards the behavior?

How is “getting dudes to pay for dinner” part of feminist doctrine exactly? I’m pretty sure The Rules isn’t a feminist manifesto.

All I can say is to continue to challenge any social doctrine that reinforces in group bias of women and praise women when they display the ability to think outside the spectrum of their immediate self interest even if ultimately there isn’t much other benefit to you?

Who’s a good woman for thinking outside the spectrum of her immediate self-interest? You’re a good woman for thinking outside the spectrum of your immediate self-interest!

Always try to keep in mind, that the negative responses, are basically a reflection of why the question is a valid one in the first place.

Exactly. Whenever women recoil in horror at some astoundingly misogynistic thing you’ve said, that just means you’re totally right!

In a followup comment, MrKocha returns to the notion that women love throwing around rape accusations, not only at men who argue with them about paying for dinner but at “sexually inexperienced men” generally. It’s bad enough that women aren’t attracted to these men, he argues, but

the amount of shame, condescension and hostility thrown their way is quite impressive.

It can range anywhere from rape accusations to golden ones like “I hope you never find someone and stay alone forever!”

Fun fact: each and every man on the planet earth, no matter how sexually experienced, was once a virgin. Somehow most of them managed to garner themselves a certain amount of sexual experience without being accused of rape and/or having women express the opinion that they should remain alone forever.

Assuming that McKocha is speaking from experience here, and assuming also (because I’m already disturbed enough by his comments) that the bit about the rape accusations is internet hyperbole, what exactly is causing all these women to get so angry at him?

I don’t think it’s the sexual inexperience. I think that maybe, possibly, it might be the fact that he obviously hates women?

Just a wild guess.

MrKocha started up a whole thread of his own to further discuss his scientific hypotheses about the human female and her mate choices. It’s called Females Oppressing Female Mate Choice. Because these evil females who put down sexually inexperienced men are also oppressing females who might choose to mate with these men!

Thanks to AgainstMensRights for clueing me in to the wonderfulness of MrKocha — here and here.

Subscribe
Notify of
guest

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.

447 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Alice Sanguinaria
7 years ago

EWWWWWWWWWWWWWW BAD SCIENCE JUSTIFYING BIGOTRY.

CassandraSays
7 years ago

How to tackle the issue, when women potentially have 4 times the amount of in group preference, reinforced by feminist doctrine and a potential biological preference towards the behavior?

They finally invented a statistic that isn’t 90, 95, or 75%! Well done, you guys!

Now maybe find one that’s actually true?

Alice Sanguinaria
7 years ago

CassandraSays – TRU STATISTICS IS MISANDRY!

wordsp1nner
wordsp1nner
7 years ago

I think the rapey bit is about the response he gets whenever he claims that women not wanting to sleep with him is oppression–i.e., “What the hell? You can’t force women who aren’t interested in you to sleep with you! That’s rape!”

To which he seems to think, “Nuh uh. Not if I make them think that it is their duty to sleep with me.”

To which people generally respond,”… that’s never going to happen. Ew.”

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

Um, how did we get from talking about dinner to talking about rape? Is he really suggesting that women have literally accused him of rape because he suggested they pay for their own dinner?

Maybe this guy is talking about how a lot of folks pay for dinner because they feel worried they’ll be pressured into sex otherwise? And somehow he totally turned this upside-down? Or something?

Viscaria
Viscaria
7 years ago

1) Going out to restaurants and movies is the only kind of dating that MRAs seem to think exists, have you noticed? They can either be in the getting-to-know-one-another stage or the evil-wife-is-stealing-my-kids-and-Manly-Money stage, but never anything in between.

2) I’ve always shared the cheque when I’ve been out with people, with the exception of dates with some dudes who insisted despite my protests (great way to guarantee that we’ll never go out again!) so I don’t think I would have a bad reaction to somebody bringing up how we should pay for a meal at the end of it. However, I did go out with this one guy once who went into a tirade about how we girls like to act like we have it so hard but bitches never even offer to pay the cheque and anyway he has to ask girls out and the shallow ones say no (not me, as I was not like other girls) and so who’s really oppressed???? Yeah I didn’t react well to that at all.

CassandraSays
7 years ago

@ Viscaria

Did you see the thing about the age breakdown, with MRAs being mostly under 20, or middle aged and much divorced? So either they think dating is about first dates that don’t lead to anything (repellant personality ahoy), or marriage is about divorce (since is happens to them so often).

thebobgoblin
7 years ago

You know, I ain’t the best looking guy in the room, nor the most dominant, but I do pretty good with the straight ladies, and I’m pretty happy with my dating & sex life. Might this be because I don’t hate women?

Nah, can’t be that.

wordsp1nner
wordsp1nner
7 years ago

I think the problem… one of the problems of this comment is that he’s arguing about two things.

One, men paying for dates. And two, what he calls, “inequalities between the sexes in mate selection scenarios”, which I’m pretty sure is just the hypergamy/80-20 bullshit rephrased. He transitions between the two with the bullshit “Women are attracted to alphas (who are all the same)”, which I think is basically claiming “women want men to pay for dinner, which is bad because only alphas pay for dinner, so all the other men don’t get laid.”

It’s not a very clear argument, but, well… MRAs.

thebobgoblin
7 years ago

“women want men to pay for dinner, which is bad because only alphas pay for dinner, so all the other men don’t get laid.”

Because of course, all women’s sexytimes are for sale to the highest bidder.

Ah, MRAs….

Viscaria
Viscaria
7 years ago

Did you see the thing about the age breakdown, with MRAs being mostly under 20, or middle aged and much divorced?

I didn’t see that, but it makes perfect sense.

kittehserf
7 years ago

Let’s see …

Anyway her mate choice process often involves looking for signs of genetic fitness in male (attractive appearance, displayed dominance socially or physically, risk taking, higher social status),

I never wanted to breed, and was very insistent on if from at least the age of nine, so “genetic fitness” doesn’t come into it. However, Mr K fits some of this:

Attractive appearance – damn right, I saw his portrait (in a crappy reproduction, as it happens) and couldn’t look away.

Displayed dominance socially or physically – I loathe men who try to be dominant. I read it as threat, and legos are too good for them. I don’t even like being around men who are significantly taller or bigger than me, even if they’re not at all like that. The “socially” side sounds like a bullying shitbag, and they can go fuck a cactus. Mr K wasn’t a dominating (or domineering) personality even when he was ruler of eighteen million people.

Risk taking – with his own life, in serious situations, like leading an army over the Alps, or leading it into battle, yes. I’m not interested in anyone who risks himself doing stupid stuff, extreme sports or whatever, or risks other people’s livelihoods playing entrepreneur.

and weighing this against his ability to invest in her long term future: such as pay her dinner/bills). Paying for dinner displays two things: one a willingness to self sacrifice for women, and two the financial resources to continue to do so.

Hmmm … he’s very invested in my long-term future, but that doesn’t include any sort of financial involvement, or anything material here. He’s never paid for my dinner and he borrows my hats, what can I say?

Haven’t read further than that, yet, but I’m guessing it gets weirder. It always does.

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

This is especially funny considering the trashing we were given asshole doms in the other thread.

Also, my hubby and I’s version of dates are taking in burlesque performances, renting movies from the library and subjecting each other to them, and (hopefully on Wednesday!) renting a little cabin in the woods so we can BANG LIKE RABBITS.

Oh, and cake. We’ll probably bake cake.

Quackers
Quackers
7 years ago

Ah yes…there’s that automatic in group preference talking point, whereas last week they were gloating about the NYtimes article that claimed women are catty mcbitches with each other and are responsible for all the slut shaming.

I just can’t take anything these guys says seriously, and it especially creeps me out how they chalk everything up to evolution and biology. Acting like human beings have no freewill, no ability to think for themselves, having everything we do is in some way majorly influenced by evolution that is always explained in such an overly simplistic way…yeah fuck you. If you think humans are basically the equivalent of pre-programmed robots, please take your sex bot and go your own way. Its such a convenient tactic in order to not take responsibility for shitty behaviour too…but only if you’re a man. Even though women do things because provider blah blah blah, there’s still an endless amount of complaints and keyboard smashing from the misters.

And what are you supposed to do when you offer to pay for your half of dinner (and more than once) but the guy insists on paying? Is he oppressing himself? because when I go on dates that’s what happens most of the time, and frankly, I don’t like it. I mean it’s a nice gesture and all, but who knows if he’s one of those guys who thinks women owe him now for dinner. At most if he pays, I insist on paying for coffee or dessert later on. One date I had I paid for the meal and he paid for the movie. I really liked that guy but it never worked out.

kittehserf
7 years ago

Oh, forgot higher social status. Well, he ruled not one kingdom but two, so FUCK YEAH.

Bina
Bina
7 years ago

Why do I get the feeling that this dude is one of those guys who really bemoan the Good Old Days, when all a Real Man had to do to get a woman was club her over the head and drag her off to his cave for some hot unconscious action? And where he didn’t have to bother with any pesky social amenities, like offering her a slab of roast mastodon before (or after)?

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

I do have one male friend who insists on paying for meals with me. But that’s because I’m a bum, and he is one of the richest friends I have, and he knows I can’t afford fancy sushi and creme brulee on my own. Thing is, we TALKED about it. Also, he’s not into me and I’m not into him, so it’s not sexual.

kittehserf
7 years ago

renting a little cabin in the woods so we can BANG LIKE RABBITS.

<a href="http://leadchangegroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/energizer-bunny.jpgYou mean you want to be Energizer Bunnies?

Now that is kinky. O_O

kittehserf
7 years ago

Nothing like fucking up tags to spoil a joke! 😛

Quackers
Quackers
7 years ago

and just to confirm, I’m not saying none of our behavior is influenced by evolution, some of it obviously is, but from what I’ve read, scientists seem to agree we are influenced both by nature and nurture.

I guess I’ve always had this aversion to being told how I must act and what I am as a person and especially what I am because I’m female. No, only I get to decide who I am and what is right for me, thanks.

Marchelle
Marchelle
7 years ago

Oh, lord, yes, the guy whose ego is directly tied to his wallet. Look, I appreciate the offer to pay for dinner, but if I say that I’d prefer to pay for my own, be gracious and let it go. If you keep insisting, it doesn’t tell me that you’re a “gentleman,” it tells me that you have such rigidly defined definitions of gender roles that my personal preferences are irrelevant to you. Most of the when my boyfriend and I go out to dinner, I pay, because I happen to have more disposable income right now, and I appreciate the fact that he takes care of so many home and vehicular maintenance chores that I don’t like doing. We both also take turns cooking and cleaning up, which would surely makes these MRAs heads explode.

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

RE: Kittehs

I will be sure to bring a bunny suit in your honor.

La Strega
7 years ago

I have never been comfortable allowing someone to pay for an expensive meal until after we have established a relationship (and then we take turns treating). Back when I was still “available”, first dates were casual (coffee, drinks, lunch), and I was a little surprised how few guys resisted my offers to pay my half. BTW, guys, if I absolutely refused to allow a man to pay for me, it was because I had definitely decided not to see him again.

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
7 years ago

On the rare occasion that I’ve tried to post in and converse with the regulars in r/mensrights, I’ve noticed that they LOVE to throw around that “women have more in-group bias than men” factoid. They seem to think that it proves all sorts of things, but they can’t be bothered to explain what it proves, let alone how this was measured, in what studies, and why it’s applicable. They seem to think just mentioning it is enough, which I think really goes to show the foundational sexism of MRAs: they think the argument is won when men are “shown” to be better than women.

I would be fascinated to know how they glommed on to that tidbit of garbled science (Warren Farrell, I guess?), but ultimately it doesn’t matter since they don’t actually use it— except as a crutch.

kittehserf
7 years ago

LBT – giggling now. 🙂

Viscaria
Viscaria
7 years ago

Dates! Orphan Black on the couch, snuggling kitties. House cleaning/staging. MLS listings.

And yeah, occasionally we go out somewhere that actually costs money, but who pays for what is a question that people are obviously going to approach differently when they’re trying to put two incomes toward mutual goals.

Maude LL
Maude LL
7 years ago

“Um, how did we get from talking about dinner to talking about rape?”

I interpreted the first bit about ‘dating equality’ or whatever the fuck he wrote as talking about rape. I may be wrong, but it is quite typical of these types of argument.

The idea is this: let’s say this guy really wants to have sex with a woman. But oh! the woman doesn’t want anything to do with you (it must be because of her biologically evolved avoidance of assholes). What’s the solution to this unfair conundrum?!

Now here’s the Men’s Human Rights solution: they should meet half way! Let’s say the guy wants to have sex with her 20 times, well she should accept 10 times in the name of social justice. (Why won’t the UN address their human rights concerns? Censorship!)

wordsp1nner
wordsp1nner
7 years ago

Humans are, at core, a cultural animal, and that makes it really hard to make claims about our biology.

Here’s the thing: if something is all natural with no cultural or individual variations, you don’t have to have all sorts of elaborate social customs propping it up, and it should be the same in all cultures for all people in all time periods. Otherwise, there might be biological biases, but they are clearly not absolute, and it may be hard to prove they exist.

For example, I think it is likely (and if my high school psych class is right, there is evidence behind this) that there are strong biological biases behind fear of snakes and spiders, for good biological reasons. I.e., we are primed to be afraid of spiders and snakes. But it clearly is not 100%, as my black-widow owning pre-major advisor proved.

I also can’t speak to cultural effects on how likely people are to be scared of snakes and spiders, but I imagine culture could be quite powerful.

So claiming that “People are naturally afraid of spiders and snakes, and if you aren’t, that proves that modern culture has corrupted you! Or maybe you are just pretending,” doesn’t make any sense. So why do people act like “People are naturally [my personal idea of gender relations] and if this isn’t happening, that’s because people are in denial!”

As well, if women’s preferences were set in stone, why do they complain about them so much? Maybe they think that they can change it? But wouldn’t that mean that there is a cultural aspect and it isn’t “all natural”? But then why should we change it in the direction they want?

sparky
sparky
7 years ago

Okay, I’ve read this thing twice and I still can’t figure out what that guy’s going on about. He doesn’t like paying for a woman’s meal? Ok then, just don’t. There’s no law saying the man has to pay.

And the pseudo-intellectual voice he’s writing in is painful. “Mate choice process.” Ugh.

Alice Sanguinaria
7 years ago

wordsp1nner – Because MAN LOGIC™ says that everything and nothing has to make sense, so long as the end goal is “ME ON TOP, SHE ON BOTTOM”?

… innuendo totally not intended.

wordsp1nner
wordsp1nner
7 years ago

Alice,

Uh huh. You really expect me to believe that?

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
7 years ago

On further thought, the phrase “as a crutch” seems ableist, so please mentally replace that phrase in my last post with “as a flying buttress.”

See what I did there? It’s funner to write, and I made you say “butt” in your head. See? I did it again.

Butt.

Also, I find it hard to take MrKola up there as a reliable narrator when it comes to his description of discussions with women. Honestly, he sounds like the type who thinks it’s totally okay to try to “Reason and Logic” someone into sleeping with him. Consent probably got brought up in a very different manner than he seems to understand.

Alice Sanguinaria
7 years ago

wordsp1nner – *shifts eyes* >_> <_<

No comment.

Ally S
7 years ago

Anyway her mate choice process often involves looking for signs of genetic fitness in male (attractive appearance, displayed dominance socially or physically, risk taking, higher social status), and weighing this against his ability to invest in her long term future: such as pay her dinner/bills). Paying for dinner displays two things: one a willingness to self sacrifice for women, and two the financial resources to continue to do so.

Actually, I like soft, cute, empathetic guys who look like 90s Trent Reznor and respect my boundaries. But nope, please continue to tell me what my preferences are.

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

RE: MaudeLL

Let’s say the guy wants to have sex with her 20 times, well she should accept 10 times in the name of social justice.

My rapist was actually of this type. EQUALITY! (Until he decided that I wasn’t holding up my end of the 50%…)

Maude LL
Maude LL
7 years ago

@Quaker
Also, from what I have studied (which is limited enough that I could be wrong), the dichotomy nature/nurture doesn’t make any sense anymore.
I think that we are completely the product of evolution. However, we have evolved as social animal with high brain plasticity, so behaviour is not necessarily preprogrammed per se. Instead, we are ‘programmed’ to adapt to our social environment. This whole gendered evolution doesn’t make much sense either, it’s not like the mother’s DNA only reaches daughters and vice versa (except for Goldsperm, who only has male ancestors).

It’s not crazy to posit that behaviour is evolved and deeply ingrained, the only problem is that we have know way of isolating ‘innate’ stuff. Maybe we can have people who have never had any human contact as controls for the great experiment of evo psych? Oh right, living without human contact isn’t very, uh… natural.

It can be fun for some to make up cute fanfic based in the Pleistocene to justify their beliefs, but as far as falsifiability goes, it’s pretty crap.

Viscaria
Viscaria
7 years ago

@Tulgey, butts butts butts!

http://youtu.be/t9eksJXSMZ4

(Puppy butts)

wordsp1nner
wordsp1nner
7 years ago

On the topic of bodily integrity and consent, there was this very beautiful children’s book that someone read to be as a child that FREAKED ME OUT. It was The Rainbow Fish, if you want to look it up.

Anyway, the story is that there is a fish with rainbow sparkly scales who doesn’t have any friends. But then zie* decides zie wants friends, and can’t make friends until zie GIVES AWAY HIS SCALES so now everyone has one special scale.

Which is, okay, I get now that its trying to teach kids to share. But scales are not a possession–they are a part of your body–and the point I got from that book was if you are in any way special everyone will hate you until you get rid of whatever makes you special. Also, you should give away parts of your body if people are jealous.

*I have no idea of the fish’s gender.

MaudeLL
MaudeLL
7 years ago

@LBT
Oh damn, I’m sorry. I’ve had similar experiences with a rapist and other sexual manipulators. They just want to make sure to twist things where saying no is portrayed as a selfish move.

*shudder*

CassandraSays
7 years ago

I’m with MaudeLL on this, I think dude means that women should “compromise” on sex because it’s not fair that men go on all these dates where they want sex and it doesn’t happen and blah blah something about alphas and I mean it’s not like men choose partners based on looks or anything.

Ally S
7 years ago

All I can say is to continue to challenge any social doctrine that reinforces in group bias of women and praise women when they display the ability to think outside the spectrum of their immediate self interest even if ultimately there isn’t much other benefit to you?

Statements aren’t questions?

CassandraSays
7 years ago

Proper punctuation is misandry.

Alice Sanguinaria
7 years ago

This totally explains the two dot ellipsis.

delia ruhe
delia ruhe
7 years ago

This guy actually gets dates?

Ally S
7 years ago

Using Incorrect grammar and Spelling is a Political statement against a feminist Tyrannies?

CassandraSays
7 years ago

its THE only way to defet the Feminsit conspeerasee..

Ally S
7 years ago

omg i THIK that feminsit reefers to the evel ov HEARD CHEIRS becuz feminSIT oh no

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

It’s okay, MaudeLL. He’s gone and in a much better place now. Just really wish I’d known what bullshit that stuff was BEFORE he got to me.

RE: wordsp1nner

Oh man, I remember that book. I liked it as a kid, but hey, I liked a lot of questionable shit. And honestly, the lesson in it combined pretty creepily with the stuff I mentioned above. EQUALITY!

Alice Sanguinaria
7 years ago

Ally – Teachers are the ones who teach you about grammar, right? And almost all teachers are female—the male ones happen to be huge manginas anyways, so they count as females too. And everyone knows that feminism is about FEEEEEEEEMALE SUPERIORITY. And because all of the teachers are females or manginas, they stand to benefit for the GYNOCRACY that is already here and yet to come!!!11eleven1!! And because they are the ones who watch our kids for six or seven hours a day (if not more!), they’re the prime brainwashing agents of the FEMINAZI AGENDA. AND THEY TEACH YOU GRAMMAR!!!11!!

So incorrect grammar and spelling is a sign that you know what they’re doing and that you won’t fall for their tricks. (Conspiracy-theory) MAN LOGIC™!

1 2 3 9