Dalrock, a manosphere traditionalist with a great love of charts and statistics and other accoutrements of SCIENCE, has managed to figure out a way to stretch “don’t be so picky, ladies, or you’ll get old and ugly and no man will ever want you” out to 1500 words.
Here are a few of them:
Men foot the searching costs in the marriage and sexual marketplace (MMP & SMP). This means bearing most of the risk of rejection and expending the bulk of the resources to facilitate the process of meeting and getting to know one another.
Oh dear. We’re off to a very unpromising start here.
As the ones who bear the costs of courtship, men have a strong incentive to minimize the number of women they court and the overall duration of time spent in the process. However, as the consumers of courtship, women have an incentive to draw the process out as long as possible and to receive courtship from as many men as possible.
Here’s some surveillance footage of an average American woman being courted by several men.
But now — get this — the ladies are waiting longer to marry!
Just think about what this does to the dude navigating the marriage market hoping to “maximize his Pareto efficiency,” if you know what I mean and I think you do.
He needs to manage risk vs reward. When courting, there are two fundamental risks. These are the risk of wasting resources on the wrong women, and the risk of rejection harming the man’s reputation/MMV.
So watch out, ladies, because if you wait too long, guys are going to decide you’re not much of a bargain!
For a man who is managing the risks of courtship outlined above, the age of a woman is very important. The older a woman is, the more likely it is that she is very picky and/or not seriously looking for a husband.
Exactly! Because women never change their mind because they’re, you know, in a different stage of their life or anything.
Older women also are less attractive from a courtship perspective because they have used up more of their most attractive/fertile years, and while their attractiveness for marriage has declined their expectations for courtship have only increased.
This reminds me of that famous joke, you know, where that woman approaches Winston Churchill at a party and says, “Sir, you are drunk.”
And he replies: “And you, Bessie, have used up your most attractive/fertile years. But I shall be sober in the morning, and you will still have used up your most attractive/fertile years.”
That Churchill, what a card!
Consider the 25% of current early thirties White women who still haven’t married; unless they are terminally unattractive an awful lot of courtship has almost certainly been wasted on them.
Are there really a lot of guys who look back on the women they dated in their twenties and think, “boy, I wasted a lot of courtship on those gals! I mean, I wasted nearly 14 courtship on Jessa alone!” (Also, who knew that the women are always the ones to blame when heterosexual couples in their twenties break up?)
They aren’t just bad bets for courtship today, but (in retrospect) they clearly were bad bets for courtship for the last 15 years. …
Put simply, the extended delay of marriage by women has placed marriage minded men in a dilemma; older women are (generally speaking) known bad bets for courtship, but half of early twenties women are also poor bets for courtship.
Well, you could always marry a dude.
There are only two logical ways men can respond to women’s extension of courtship.
Wait, really? Please, please, please, let one of the ways be “marry a dude.”
The first logical choice is to recognize that these women are debasing marriage, and decide to “court” for sex and not marriage.
Damn. Anyway, sexual relationships are fine, but you are aware that there are other kinds of relationships — sorry, “courting” — besides sex and marriage, right?
Ok, we still have one more. Marry a dude. Marry a dude. Marry a dude.
But while “courting” for sex is a logical choice, it is not a moral choice, and we still do see men courting for marriage. For these men, having a fairly low age cutoff makes a great deal of sense.
That’s your, er, “solution?” Marry a teenager? Or a woman at most in her early twenties?
As Dalrock knows, but doesn’t want to believe, those who marry when they’re very young are much more likely to divorce than those who marry when they’re older. For evidence, see this chart, which I found elsewhere on Dalrock’s own blog:
But hope springs eternal for modern misogynistic manospherian marriage market minded men (MMMMMMM).
Absolutely. And on that note,
My scrawny old grey cat > YOU. <3
But that’s wrong.
Your conjecture isn’t strong, you’ve got a three sided dice and you’re trying to roll twenty
odds ain’t with you, mate, s’is gonna turn out lacking plenty
of clue, because due to the way the dudes delight in delinating blinkered lines of demarcation, your brain tricks you into making that rabid assumption (akin, perchance, to mental masturbation)
Some dudes want young dudes, all skin fair and hawt
and some dudes want strong dues, all been been thered and oiled, ab-stretched guts
and so what?
That tells of nothing ’bout value, or people, or instristic worth
Just… your sad hierarchies of how other people should make your worldview work 🙂
Fair bet Dud&Dense wouldn’t be whining about any of this if he actually, y’know, had a relationship. With anyone. Ever. I suspect he radiates Gross MRA vibes and everyone backs away, so of course he has to pretend it’s all about how worthless adult women are.
Dang, I’m waisting all my most fertile years by working for my PhD in chemistry. I should have married sooner… By the time I’m done with school every man I meet will just assume I’m “too picky” to marry at all. Oh well, the nanoporous particles will still love me.
It’s just by email. Avd idk about wordpress.com,but .org comes with a couple of auto generated options (including monsters and retro pixeled things, I’m torn)
I think that was meant to be on the How Bad Ideas post, Argenti.
For once, I was on the right thread. I was adding to this “I don’t know whether it also changes with IP, but I doubt it, since anyone on a dynamic IP would then see their gravatar randomly change from time to time.”
Though I can totally see how “which should FemBorg use” belongs over there.
I bid a garlicky scallop belch.
Egads, that burp is getting older by the SECOND and losing value. Quick! Quick! Somebody accept it!
Why do MRA’s prattle on and on about this nonsense? Marriage will either continue as always or will slowly fade away,,,there is no need to write massive Wall O Texts about why you shouldn’t get married. People will do it, or they wont.
Chie:
It’s not necessarily the same guys, although you could argue that the MRAs are really bad at criticizing each other and creating a coherent message.
Anyway, “fertile” is generally a synonym for “attractive” woman because in evopsych thinking fertility is the reason why men are attracted to women of certain age range. It doesn’t literally mean that men (or anyone) want to have children. Most MRAs probably expect to marry and have children, if only because that’s what “normal” people do. Supposedly, women usually want kids and taking care of them is women’s job anyway. Child support is deemed totally unfair if a woman insists on hogging the children to herself, like spermjackers and divorced mothers supposedly do.
Sure, many PUAs and MRAs are obsessed with the younger end of the fertile age range because they’re predators who prefer undeveloped minds (not necessarily undeveloped bodies, I suspect). Others just don’t care and often sincerely believe the abuse apologia. All this creates the general manosphere assumption that women’s attractiveness peaks very early and then quickly fades away.
Quote: A full 25% of all US White 30-34 year old women have yet to marry, and these aging would be brides are the loudest voices complaining about the lack of courtship. END
First of all where are all these women who are complaining “where have all the good men gone.”? 2nd of all that 25% # ? How many of those unmarried women are gay ? And how many of them are in a long term serious relationship including cohabitating who for one reason or another the couple has chosen not to formalize it ?
After you subtract those out of the 25% . How many of them are single and perfectly content that way ? Not scrambling around looking for “courtship” ? Having said that how many of those 25% do eventually marry later in life ? Right off the cuff I know one female that is in her 40’s never married and never wanted to get married(or have children) .She has plenty of opportunity .I know another one who is 46 never married but just got engaged to her BF of a couple years .
I just do not believe there are hourdes and masses of women 31-34 clamoring /desperate to ‘find ” a decent man to marry .And cant even get a date .
Its seems apparent THESE guys can’t get a woman to marry them and STAY married to them .They are the ones being rejected . And they are kidding themselves if they think the under 20 group in any where near a significant # ‘s are interested in being “courted” by a guy in his 30’s +.Sure maybe a very handsome guy with a great personality .But a young “attractive” women typically wants to date a YOUNG attractive guy . When I was in that age group ? If an older man hit on me I immediately considered him a complete pervert .
And as far as Dalrock ? Isn’t he supposedly happily married ? Why is he sitting around “formulating” a guys risks verses reward like investments in a retirement plan over “courtship?” To a bunch of obviously jilted /rejected bitter angry old men ?
I read some of the comments over there . Oh ma gosh! Don’t even know where to start.
One guy moved to RUSSIA . He said here with the women his “strategy was to go for sex immediately (before much “investment”) if she wouldn’t put out right away “dump her ” . If she did put out THEN decide if you wanted her as a GF or wife . Sounds like that didn’t pan out for him .
At the same time they want the ‘chaste” girl they are also happy to screw them right away then dump them or dump them for not having sex ? Then the next guy complains they are filthy dirty used up sluts(if they put out) not worthy of them for marriage because she screwed some other guy besides him?
They don’t want to date them long enough to decide if they like them enough to consider marriage unless they put out “right away.’ Then if it doesn’t work out she is a slut for the next guy that is looking for a “bride.”
These guys are nuts . I don’t think they even know what they want .Lets put it this way they aren’t going to get what I think they want . The first girl they get a hard on for must be a virgin that agrees to marry them AND give up her right to consent to sex. For as long as HE wants to stay married to her .Because of course women divorcing men should be out lawed.
The implications that it is somehow ‘wrong’ that a person still gets to “decide’ to NOT have sex ANY TIME the other one wants to after marriage is revolting.(no “garaunteed sex)Coupled with forcing people to stay married by making divorce ‘more difficult.” ????
I mean really ? Its in a nutshell complaining that you have a right to ever refuse having sex after you get married and you can’t obtain a divorce without “proof” of adultery ?.If that were the law ? Talk about not being able to find a woman to marry young. Oh but I forgot . We could also make it illegal for a woman to refuse a marriage proposal. Because that’s immoral .
Sorry manosphere. Women can put off marriage if they want . They can pay for their own meals .They can in the mean time “put out” and enjoy consentual sex if they want .Calling her a slut isn’t going to change it .They can also turn down sex for any reason after marriage .And they can divorce you . Your hatred and jealousy of that isn’t going to change it .
Even though I don’t get the jealousy part because you have always had that privilege.
Another thing I noticed ? LOL!!
Is some of these guys complaining about misandry ?(hatred of men?) by “Feminist?’
OH ma gosh . The way they(some) describe “all men.” Their own gender ? I (who they would “accuse” of being a man hater) would never lump all men in such a demoralizing way .I’m in fact insulted men(some) describe “men” that way as i have sons.(adults) .
One guy claimed (all men,and women know it too by 13) are only there (interested in her) for sex . That they (men) do not care about her wants and needs .
Sorry . I think (know) that is a damning statement about men and their feelings towards the opposite sex . He needs to stop being a coward and speak only for himself and guys (creeps) like him.
Im going to correct his statement on behalf of all the good loving cherished men I love.
The corrected statement is …
I (ass hole in question) and men like me don’t care about a woman’s wants or needs.The only reason I (and men like me) are even there is for sex. And that is why Im whining on the manosphere because for some odd reason I cant get laid .
lana – but that’s it, isn’t it? They want the double-standard enforced in law as it was in the nineteenth century, at least in England, or worse. Women (at least of the middle classes) with no way of supporting themselves except by marriage; women unable to obtain divorce, or if any exception is made, they have to prove adultery and cruetly; women’s property becoming the man’s upon marriage, including anything they make or any money they earn (by writing, for example); men having ownership of the children; men being able to have women incarcerated in mental asylums for any displeasing behaviour.
And of course they want to have sex available on demand from any woman, and the ability to discard or abuse her for it afterward, as you said. Basically they want us reduced to a slave class, where everything we do is wrong and we never know if doing X will bring approval or a beating. They are indeed the abusers’ lobby.
lana – bingo. MRAs et al have a much, much lower opinion of men than most feminists do.
Exactamundo. And all that whining is supposed to improve his chances HOW?
Honestly, pretty well all the manospherians’ problems could be solved by one simple saying: If you want to be loved, be lovable. It’s not complicated! Really!
QFT and then some!
And being lovable does not mean being perfect, despite what they would claim. Nobody is. It doesn’t even mean being obviously attractive or charming or winsome or whatever, which they probably also think women demand of men. Look at all the flawed, strange, or just totally ordinary people (of whatever sex) wandering around who. are. loved.
Hell, I fell in love with what I learned about Mr Kittehs in his earthly days, and he was anything but obviously lovable on the surface. “Not being a totally hateful douchecanoe” helps with these things, but the Rageboner Entitlement Dudebros don’t want to be told that, ‘cos it infringes on their Freeze Peach and rights as teh menz.
OH ! That’s the other “saying ” I love .
Not matter what we do its never “good enough”.
But they never tried not being an ass hole. So it isn’t “no matter what we do .”
They also never tried not “doing something” for a reward . Try doing something just because its right.
I don’t know if Im allowed to share links here but this guy explains it . And “manoshphere ” guys would call him a liar .
http://redemptionpictures.com/2013/06/27/sex-robot/
When was it ever not okay to marry dudes? Oh, you mean it’s okay for DUDES to marry dudes. I see. You’re assuming that the default gender is male.
Just so you know, when you’re on a feminist blog, it’s fairly safe to assume that some of the participants will be women.
@Shaenon
I’m sure they’d argue that a Logan’s Run-style society would make sense if only women were shipped off at 30. Throw in some sex-bots and you’d have a stunted male adolescence utopia.
Brooked – nah, these losers would go for the age cut-off in the book, 21. For women, anyway.
lana – I like that article you linked to.
Yuppers. Of course, the guys who do all that “friendzone” whining are the same lot who assign women numbers according to their looks, and demand — not like, DEMAND — no less than an 8, preferably a 10. And then go all Sodini when it turns out that merely having good hygiene and a clean house aren’t enough to get those hot babes tumbling around their feet…
Women aren’t all they don’t get. The first thing they don’t get is a clue.
It’s so strange. I actually did marry a guy twelve years my senior, a couple weeks before turning 22, and then promptly quit my job and popped out four kids in rapid succession. I guess redpillers and mras everywhere would approve.
….hooray
For me, part of the appeal of the older guy was that he was on board with having a family ASAP, unlike guys under 30, who all seemed to want to fun around for another ten, fifteen years. I just really wanted to get the grunt work of childrearing over with so I could be vacationing kidless on a beach in Mexico in time for my 45th birthday. 😉
Anyway, the guy himself was, and is, great, you know? Mellow, cute, respectful, funny, kind; stable, sane family background. No kids or ex-wives or weird oppressive hangups…
I haven’t always been easy to live with over the last ten years, though; getting married young doesn’t mean you don’t still have a huge amount of growing up to do, and nobody can grow you up by proxy, not even your spouse. I imagine he probably could have spared himself a bunch of trouble by holding out for a peer. He wasn’t exactly awash in desperate 30something wall-hitters jacking his sperm, though, so hey– he did the best he could with what he had.
Not sure why the MRA crowd thinks marrying a youngster is the smooth path. They should talk to some guys who’ve actually done it. ha ha ha
This is called planning! 😀
Of course the MRAs think (I’m using the term loosely) women are just things for them to program; get the codes right and we become the sort of sexbots they want, as long as they start early enough. It always seems to come as a shock to them that we have our own personalities, whether as mature adults or as children.
Mellow is a word that just doesn’t get used enough (at least outside a pot-smoking context). It’s exactly the word for Mr K, too, along with the other things that describe Mr Ceebarks. Apart from the family background, that is! 😀