Dalrock, a manosphere traditionalist with a great love of charts and statistics and other accoutrements of SCIENCE, has managed to figure out a way to stretch “don’t be so picky, ladies, or you’ll get old and ugly and no man will ever want you” out to 1500 words.
Here are a few of them:
Men foot the searching costs in the marriage and sexual marketplace (MMP & SMP). This means bearing most of the risk of rejection and expending the bulk of the resources to facilitate the process of meeting and getting to know one another.
Oh dear. We’re off to a very unpromising start here.
As the ones who bear the costs of courtship, men have a strong incentive to minimize the number of women they court and the overall duration of time spent in the process. However, as the consumers of courtship, women have an incentive to draw the process out as long as possible and to receive courtship from as many men as possible.
Here’s some surveillance footage of an average American woman being courted by several men.
But now — get this — the ladies are waiting longer to marry!
Just think about what this does to the dude navigating the marriage market hoping to “maximize his Pareto efficiency,” if you know what I mean and I think you do.
He needs to manage risk vs reward. When courting, there are two fundamental risks. These are the risk of wasting resources on the wrong women, and the risk of rejection harming the man’s reputation/MMV.
So watch out, ladies, because if you wait too long, guys are going to decide you’re not much of a bargain!
For a man who is managing the risks of courtship outlined above, the age of a woman is very important. The older a woman is, the more likely it is that she is very picky and/or not seriously looking for a husband.
Exactly! Because women never change their mind because they’re, you know, in a different stage of their life or anything.
Older women also are less attractive from a courtship perspective because they have used up more of their most attractive/fertile years, and while their attractiveness for marriage has declined their expectations for courtship have only increased.
This reminds me of that famous joke, you know, where that woman approaches Winston Churchill at a party and says, “Sir, you are drunk.”
And he replies: “And you, Bessie, have used up your most attractive/fertile years. But I shall be sober in the morning, and you will still have used up your most attractive/fertile years.”
That Churchill, what a card!
Consider the 25% of current early thirties White women who still haven’t married; unless they are terminally unattractive an awful lot of courtship has almost certainly been wasted on them.
Are there really a lot of guys who look back on the women they dated in their twenties and think, “boy, I wasted a lot of courtship on those gals! I mean, I wasted nearly 14 courtship on Jessa alone!” (Also, who knew that the women are always the ones to blame when heterosexual couples in their twenties break up?)
They aren’t just bad bets for courtship today, but (in retrospect) they clearly were bad bets for courtship for the last 15 years. …
Put simply, the extended delay of marriage by women has placed marriage minded men in a dilemma; older women are (generally speaking) known bad bets for courtship, but half of early twenties women are also poor bets for courtship.
Well, you could always marry a dude.
There are only two logical ways men can respond to women’s extension of courtship.
Wait, really? Please, please, please, let one of the ways be “marry a dude.”
The first logical choice is to recognize that these women are debasing marriage, and decide to “court” for sex and not marriage.
Damn. Anyway, sexual relationships are fine, but you are aware that there are other kinds of relationships — sorry, “courting” — besides sex and marriage, right?
Ok, we still have one more. Marry a dude. Marry a dude. Marry a dude.
But while “courting” for sex is a logical choice, it is not a moral choice, and we still do see men courting for marriage. For these men, having a fairly low age cutoff makes a great deal of sense.
That’s your, er, “solution?” Marry a teenager? Or a woman at most in her early twenties?
As Dalrock knows, but doesn’t want to believe, those who marry when they’re very young are much more likely to divorce than those who marry when they’re older. For evidence, see this chart, which I found elsewhere on Dalrock’s own blog:
But hope springs eternal for modern misogynistic manospherian marriage market minded men (MMMMMMM).
Qwerty, how did you know he was posting comments here?
When I am 76, I will be proud and happy of the person I have become. I already look back on my 20’s and I’m so glad I’ve grown and changed since then. I did marry young and the advice I give young people who think of doing the same is to remember that they are still going through formative years and that they are going to see each other do and say things that will be embarrassing when they are older. Your tastes will change. You will keep coming into your own. You will become more confident. You’ll live and learn. You’re style will change. Priorities shift. You will hope that your partner can look at you and not see the you that was, but the person you worked so hard to become. Most of the young couples we knew back when we married are no longer together. In fact, enough time has passed for some of them to have married, divorced, hated each other for a while and then become friends again. Time passes and people change. People you find adorable at 20 may irritate the piss out of you at 30. I do not recommend getting married early. It’s such a risky gamble.
I remember being scared of how it would feel to turn 30. I’d heard it felt bad. Instead, I felt like I could do anything I wanted and I did. We had a big party. I dropped toxic relationships, because ain’t nobody got time for that. I dreadlocked my hair. I no longer felt like I had to disguise myself as a responsible adult. I was 30, dammit! I started saying, “No.” more often, instead of trying to please everyone. I stopped being afraid to ask for help when I need it. I faced some fears that had seemed too spoopy before. I learned how to do things like hula hoop and roller skate in my 30’s. I cut my hair. I dyed it pink and purple. (Right now, it’s blue.) I made new friends and tried new things. I finally dropped religion and all things woo-y like a hot rock. (No offense to religious folks, but that was a very good thing for me.) I got more fit than I’d ever been and entered a relay for charity. It felt great! I got all marshmallowy again (and still rock short skirts, thankyaverymuch) and I’m gearing up to get back in relay shape because it was fun and I want to do it again this summer. My husband and I fulfilled our dream of adoption. I went from the mom of one to the mom of four, something I could not have handled in my 20’s. I plan to celebrate forty with a Mohawk, but if I change my mind I don’t think that will bother me, because I’ll be 40 dammit!
…and as to swingers and non-monogamous people being “sick”? Fuck you, you jealous dweeb. Responsible, respectful lovers can absolutely be poly or non-monogamous and still have wonderful relationships. You’re just so angry that other people are having fun and experiencing love on their own terms and you’re still bitter over all the blow jobs you didn’t get in college. *sad trombone*
Free teal deer rides for all my friends!
Sorry.
Hilarious though this latest twist is, I’m afraid I’m starting to smell the unmistakably damp aroma of a makeshift dwelling under a bridge.
Sorry to be so instinctively suspicious, but how exactly did you find his Dalrock.wordpress comments, given that his name could hardly be more boringly generic?
That said, if you Google “Dalrock Michael” you’ll end up on this page soon enough – it’s currently number ten in the rankings.
@Leatapp I do envy you the blue hair. Planning to try out some fun colours myself when I retire and no longer have to pretend to be a professional (in a conservative profession)
@mikey
Nothing about what you say is supported by the data. I don’t have to be a work for a little while, so I may as well dissect your most recent babble while finishing my coffee.
” never said to fear aging by itself. It’s pointless to fear the inevitable. Rather you she be aware you have a window of oppurtunities to get it right, assuming you want marriage, children in a nuclear family environment, and someone to grow old with who remembers the girl you were at 26 when you are 76.”
*Sigh* That’s a lot of assuming, and the underlying assumption is that marriage, nuclear families and growing old together are all superior to other alternatives, (hence the ‘getting it right’ window of opportunity). Surprise, surprise, none of that is true.
Interestingly, the bulk of studies on child behavioral and adjustment outcomes point to lesbian couples being the best environment for raising children, not the nuclear family.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2010/06/07/peds.2009-3153.full.pdf+html
Also, in a recent study of over 5000 British couples from a huge variety of backgrounds that studied happiness (both in general and within the relationship) found that non married parents scored better in relationship satisfaction than married parents and that people who had previous relationships (likely in their 20s) reported more satisfaction in the current relationship. Childless married couples and gay/lesbian couples (children or no) scored the highest in relationship satisfaction. The link is to the researchers’ web site because it is ongoing.
http://www.open.ac.uk/researchprojects/enduringlove/news-and-blog
So we should revise your recommendation to: have some long term relationships in your 20s so you learn about yourself and your preferences in a partner, and then when you are settled and in a stable relationship in your 30s if you plan on getting married you should wait to have kids. Or be gay or lesbian. That’s the path to happiness.
“Or you can ignore male reality, pretend it doesn’t exist, or become an angry lesbian. It’s up to you.”
Wow, so being a lesbian is a choice and a bad one, one would presume because you become angry… homophobic much?
Yeah, see the above about lesbian relationships and child outcomes -_-
“You stated you had long term boyfriend and used to phrase – when I get around to marrying his sexy ass or something to that effect. Well dear, if he has not proposed by now, this is a problem for you. You will need to issue several subliminal hints or an ultimatum .”
I plan on proposing to my boyfriend’s sexy ass (and the rest of him while I’m at it) on our anniversary this year. That is, if he doesn’t beat me to it. Wouldn’t it be hilarious if we proposed at the same time? *Squee!*
Really though. The idea that men have to do the proposing is antiquated and sexist, not to mention the assumption that not only can the woman not propose, she must also only express interest in marriage through back handed manipulation? What? I thought you were an adult? Also, real life is not like TV. They act like that for the lulz.
“Again this is for women who want a monogamous relationship with the same man. If your a whore, or a degenerate swinger or some kind of sick individual this advice does not apply to you and you have no business getting married on the first place (I’m just saying).”
Because anyone who has different relationship preferences from you is somehow a bad person? How about… no. Also, see the above about gay and lesbian couples and non married parents.
“If he uses up your youth and you end up as live ins breaking up at 31 – you my dear are fucked. You have lost your entire investment and are now starting from scratch with a severely reduced sexual market value courting quality men in your age bracket who are openly or secretly looking at 26 year olds.”
Again, see the above about people who have been in a relationship before having more satisfaction in future relationships.
“You may say, I’m 26, age is just a number and besides 5 years is not much. This is correct if your 19 and starting over at 24. But from a biological, male visual perspective there is a world of difference between 26 and 31. As a matter of fact unless you take extremely good care of yourself you will look like a different person to most men but not in the same way as from 19 to 24. At 31 you are now past or passing your expiration date. It’s kind of like a jug of milk. It expires in 30 days but some milk expires a little eariler or later you just never know exactly when.”
Yes, because how a person looks is the only reason you would ever want to date them. Gods forbid you have interests in common, enjoy each other’s company and do fun things together. What do blind people do? What do people with disfiguring disabilities do? Oh, yeah, just like LGBT folk, they also don’t exist in your world and/or aren’t worthy of love. I forgot. Let’s add abelist to the list of sexist, racist and homophobic, just for fun.
“In any instance Its ultimately up to you to select the right man. The burden is 100% on your shoulders. You are the gatekeeper and its ultimately you who will bear the lonlness pain regret and pity that comes with becoming an unmarried SPINSTER.
Your chances of marriage statistically diminish with every passing year you allow this guy to use your youth providing you with no contractural security of marriage in return.
In the end you will have nobody to blame but you.”
This last bit is a gem. I thought relationships involved two people, at minimum? How is anything 100% the responsibility of only one of those people. Anything. The whole ‘women as gatekeepers’ thing is not only sexist, it also erases LGBT people, surprise surprise. In the real world, marriage isn’t some transaction with a contract like buying or selling real estate. It used to be, but it wasn’t between the wife and husband, it was between the husband and his new wife’s father. You know, back when women were literally property, oh, less than a century ago in America (and still going on in some places). These days, women who have some autonomy are able to pick partners based on love and compatibility (not fear or obligation), or choose not to have a partner at all. And you act like that’s a bad thing. You are the hopeless one.
qwerty, I’m curious, how did you find michael on this blog?
And did he really put you up in a penthouse in Charlotte for a week and spend “thousands” on you?
Qwerty,
Assuming you aren’t troll’n down the river, that’s a horrible way to find out your bf isn’t who you thought he was. I’m so sorry you had to find out this way.
I am 99% sure that qwerty is not michael, and thinking she probaby is who she says she is.
Yes, I don’t think she’s Michael – those links look pretty genuine, and the writing style in posts written several years ago is unmistakable.
I actually meant to ask Michael if he’d be comfortable showing this conversation to his girlfriend, because I strongly suspect(ed) that the answer would be no.
Titanblue,
Thanks. I envy your career. I never finished a degree. I still don’t know what I want to be when I grow up.
Oh wow, I was so busy typing that word wall that I missed the M Night Shyamalan-ian twist.
Hi Qwerty. Thanks for stopping by and sorry you ever had to deal with Mikey! >_>
You are not dumb, Qwerty. You were lied to. You sound like a responsible woman who deserves so much more than Michael could ever offer you. If you want it, please accept this hug—–> *HUG*
Qwerty,
You may have lost a crappy bf, but you gained a future without a crappy bf and maybe some new friends here. I hope that helps. You will find that there are plenty of people who will appreciate you for you and not how many points they think you can score them when they’re bragging on the internet. Best wishes to you and your little girl.
Eww.
Wow, Mikey. Have you never just talked to a woman you were dating? Does everything have to be some covert power play? Look who I’m talking to, of course it does.
I’m not cupisnique so I can’t speak to her circumstances, but I can certainly speak to mine, which have a lot of surface similarities. My boyfriend and I both know things like how the other feels about marriage, what kind of timelines we are looking at, what we would want our marriage to look like, hell, even some of the details of a proposal, because we have discussed those things. How could you possibly expect to make a lifelong commitment to someone who you can’t honestly speak to about major life plans that affect the both of you?
Sorry for acting suspicious, qwerty; we get a lot of trolls and bullshitters stopping by here.
You can do a lot better than him. I’m pretty sure about that!
“(Yes, I say Good Grief. Don’t judge.)”
As long as you don’t mind me hearing it in Charlie Brown’s voice, I promise not to judge!
Assuming Qwerty is Michael’s soon to be ex, I’m glad to hear that she’s just naturally small — he was striking me as the sort to threaten the SPINSTER fate if she dared hit 110. As for dating advice, do the opposite of everything he says? In seriousness, chat up the dads at the playground, maybe you’ll get lucky, and if not, hey, at least your little girl probably has a new playmate?
As for getting around to marrying your partner, I guess pecunium’s beloved should’ve offered an ultimatum some time ago. But they’re finally getting around to it. And yes Mickey, they’re both over 30, and almost sickeningly cute together. (And I’m all squee about it and if they don’t tell me what they want for gifts, they’re getting a mango slicer)
Nth’ing the apology for my doubt. In any case I’m glad you won’t be wasting any more of your precious youth on him (that’s meant as sarcasm, but really, age aside, you’re better off without him and his judgement)
Things have gotten serious in here, so I’m gonna repost this — my
pufferbaby after a big meal of snails —http://youtu.be/g7wFAKaYM7s
@Qwerty
I’m sorry to hear that your BF was a jerk to you. And I’m nth’ing the notion that you’re not dumb.
I just had a horrible thought:
Can you imagine a girl growing up with Michael for a daddy? I feel like we just saw two people successfully dodge a smarmy bullet.
Hahaha hahaaaaaaaaa
And to think, I was getting bored of this thread!
Hey, Qwerty, I hope you don’t feel to bad. I think it’s pretty normal to meet a dud or two along the path. Life lessons learned, that’s all.
Once your little one grows up a bit and you finish your education you may have a lot more free time for a social life that includes more nice normal people and fewer angry weirdos from the internet.
(I remember when my little ones were babies– it can be incredibly isolating and hard and I remember feeling like My Life Is Over at many points, but then they started gaining some indepedence and it felt like taking off shackles! Cute, priceless shackles, but… parents, you know what I mean, RICHT!? ha ha ha)
Qwerty, you’re not dumb and I’m sorry this happened to you.
This is actually a perfect illustration of what we’ve been arguing – that people shouldn’t pair up with life partners too young, because of the much higher probability that they might make a horrible mistake. As is completely borne out by the STATISTICS that our Mikey is so fond of.
I do! My kids are mostly entertaining and interesting now, so it was worth the wait, but the early years were truly hellish, and that’s with both parents taking on a fair chunk of the workload.