Dalrock, a manosphere traditionalist with a great love of charts and statistics and other accoutrements of SCIENCE, has managed to figure out a way to stretch “don’t be so picky, ladies, or you’ll get old and ugly and no man will ever want you” out to 1500 words.
Here are a few of them:
Men foot the searching costs in the marriage and sexual marketplace (MMP & SMP). This means bearing most of the risk of rejection and expending the bulk of the resources to facilitate the process of meeting and getting to know one another.
Oh dear. We’re off to a very unpromising start here.
As the ones who bear the costs of courtship, men have a strong incentive to minimize the number of women they court and the overall duration of time spent in the process. However, as the consumers of courtship, women have an incentive to draw the process out as long as possible and to receive courtship from as many men as possible.
Here’s some surveillance footage of an average American woman being courted by several men.
But now — get this — the ladies are waiting longer to marry!
Just think about what this does to the dude navigating the marriage market hoping to “maximize his Pareto efficiency,” if you know what I mean and I think you do.
He needs to manage risk vs reward. When courting, there are two fundamental risks. These are the risk of wasting resources on the wrong women, and the risk of rejection harming the man’s reputation/MMV.
So watch out, ladies, because if you wait too long, guys are going to decide you’re not much of a bargain!
For a man who is managing the risks of courtship outlined above, the age of a woman is very important. The older a woman is, the more likely it is that she is very picky and/or not seriously looking for a husband.
Exactly! Because women never change their mind because they’re, you know, in a different stage of their life or anything.
Older women also are less attractive from a courtship perspective because they have used up more of their most attractive/fertile years, and while their attractiveness for marriage has declined their expectations for courtship have only increased.
This reminds me of that famous joke, you know, where that woman approaches Winston Churchill at a party and says, “Sir, you are drunk.”
And he replies: “And you, Bessie, have used up your most attractive/fertile years. But I shall be sober in the morning, and you will still have used up your most attractive/fertile years.”
That Churchill, what a card!
Consider the 25% of current early thirties White women who still haven’t married; unless they are terminally unattractive an awful lot of courtship has almost certainly been wasted on them.
Are there really a lot of guys who look back on the women they dated in their twenties and think, “boy, I wasted a lot of courtship on those gals! I mean, I wasted nearly 14 courtship on Jessa alone!” (Also, who knew that the women are always the ones to blame when heterosexual couples in their twenties break up?)
They aren’t just bad bets for courtship today, but (in retrospect) they clearly were bad bets for courtship for the last 15 years. …
Put simply, the extended delay of marriage by women has placed marriage minded men in a dilemma; older women are (generally speaking) known bad bets for courtship, but half of early twenties women are also poor bets for courtship.
Well, you could always marry a dude.
There are only two logical ways men can respond to women’s extension of courtship.
Wait, really? Please, please, please, let one of the ways be “marry a dude.”
The first logical choice is to recognize that these women are debasing marriage, and decide to “court” for sex and not marriage.
Damn. Anyway, sexual relationships are fine, but you are aware that there are other kinds of relationships — sorry, “courting” — besides sex and marriage, right?
Ok, we still have one more. Marry a dude. Marry a dude. Marry a dude.
But while “courting” for sex is a logical choice, it is not a moral choice, and we still do see men courting for marriage. For these men, having a fairly low age cutoff makes a great deal of sense.
That’s your, er, “solution?” Marry a teenager? Or a woman at most in her early twenties?
As Dalrock knows, but doesn’t want to believe, those who marry when they’re very young are much more likely to divorce than those who marry when they’re older. For evidence, see this chart, which I found elsewhere on Dalrock’s own blog:
But hope springs eternal for modern misogynistic manospherian marriage market minded men (MMMMMMM).
Did you really just write this? You know you posted your story on the internet, right? Not just in a word document on your computer.
Well my grandmothers passed over when I was a toddler, so it would be a trifle difficult for them to have dispensed advice, or me to have understood and remembered it if they had.
But let’s see … Mr K ticks the moral, attractive, kind and responsible boxes (he’d be a right mess if he hadn’t, by his age). He wasn’t much of a father when his sons were little, but given the circumstances that’s no wonder, and he was in some respects a damn sight better father than his own had been. Certainly he and his sons are like big kids together now, so he ticks that box too.
I fell for him when I was seventeen and have never been interested in anyone else. I’m now so far over thirty I hardly dare mention it, in case poor Mikey explodes from the horror of it all.
Wetherby – a great big YES to all of your comment! Especially about laughing with one’s beloved. Mr K and I do so much giggling together. 🙂
I can outdo your tax demand, though. This low-income earner usually gets about a week’s pay back from the tax office.
Judgey McJudgeypants:
Yeah, but it was sampling with replacement /statistician giggle
Because the King James Version says it best “Judge not, and ye shall not be judged : condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned : forgive , and ye shall be forgiven…Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother’s eye.”
Re women ageing past some type of expiry date:
http://lolmythesis.com/post/72572459258/everything-we-know-about-elderly-pregnancies-was-made
Poor Mikey, I wonder if part of his rage comes from knowing that even if women behaved just as he wanted, there’d still be nobody interested in him? Nothing except a complete change of personality would make him worthwhile.
I just figured out what beach he lives on.
That looks about right. 😀
Is this what you chat about with your hp8.1234 20-something girlfriend when you take her to the chicest water parks in Charlotte, NC? I can’t imagine any young women wanting to discuss Dalrock’s Christian-based graphs and charts, SPINSTERS SPINSTERS SPINSTERS, and how slutty the girls you knew in college were. You must have other interests. The Clippers? Downtown Abbey? A Capella groups? Fly Fishing? Something?
I can’t stress enough how goofy it is to for you rant/lecture endlessly about this in hopes that it will make women on this board feel bad about themselves. Adult people aren’t cut to the quick by something a random chuckle-fuck says on the internet, it just doesn’t work that way. But shine on you crazy diamond.
He’s so cute, isn’t he? Trying and trying and trying and getting nowhere.
“One night I had enough. I confronted a room of 8-10 gorgeous white girls. These girls were 18-24 years old. I asked them if they planned to get married. All seemed to say more or less – YES. I asked what their future husband would think about their behavior. I was immediately met with hostility. I was told the future husband would “never know” and “it’s none of his business”.”
Even more importantly, Michael, it’s none of YOUR business. What other people choose to do with their lives is entirely up to them and they don’t have to justify their decisions to you.
“My mistake was being a hopeless romantic Princess Bride movie idolizer.”
Your shock that Princess Buttercup is not realistic is hilarious – are you also enraged that you don’t run into any giants and swashbuckling pirates on a daily basis?
Getting nowhere? I think he’s actually doing the opposite of what he thinks he’s doing.
Face it, most of us usually go through each day without consciously thinking about how grateful/ contented/ thrilled – how happy we are with our lives and, for most of us, with our partner/s. Mikey comes along and tries to force us to re-examine our lives. When we do that, most of us are reminded just how lucky we are to be living the lives we have.
So the net result of Mikey’s efforts here is to remind all of us happily partnered people how lucky we are and all of us are reminded how wonderful it is not to have a Mikey in our lives.
We win!
I also love the way that he’s citing “match.com statistics” as an authoritative survey, as opposed to a sample of people who have decided to join dating sites.
Now I have nothing against people who join dating sites (I met my wife that way, so I’d be an appalling hypocrite if I did), but would you not agree that a great many men who join such sites are likely to express preferences that might just be the teensiest bit unrealistic and unattainable? And, this being the case, it’s at least vaguely plausible that these “match.com statistics” might not offer a wholly reliable impression of how people actually pair up?
(I can’t remember how I contributed to the statistics, but I’m pretty sure that I didn’t specify an age, and I definitely didn’t mention desired physical attributes of any kind – in fact, a ready wit and sense of humor were the only absolutely non-negotiable elements. Which may of course partly explain why I hit the jackpot pretty much immediately.)
You don’t need a partner, Mikey makes me grateful for my therapist. He should consider going to one to discuss intimacy issues, healthy sexuality and how to write the word spinster not in all-caps.
Maybe therapists should charge for how many caps clients use. With Mikey’s devotion to $$$$$$$, he’d be weaned off the habit quicksmart.
mildymagnificent – YES! He makes me appreciate my life, and Mr K in particular of course, even more.
My mom married the love of her life when she was 40. They still hold hands when they walk down the street, it’s gross :-p. My stepdad considers himself lucky to have gotten not only a spouse, but also two (obviously perfect and charming) children as part of the deal. He’s the best dad I could have ever asked for, and if I ever get married I can only hope the partnership I form is as strong and as equal as theirs.
But hey, let’s wait for Mickey to tell us what a loser he is, because Mickey doesn’t consider the happiness of a person to be at all relevant to the question of whether of not that person is a loser. No, the important factor (for men) is how much Mickey wishes he could have their life. It’s like he never developed an awareness of the fact that different people have different desires and goals.
I love Mikey’s repeated use of the word “sad”. In fact, most of my female friends were past thirty when they married (the ones who got married in their twenties were in a fairly small minority), and for the most part they seem very very happy indeed.
In particular, they certainly don’t seem to have had any difficulty hooking up with “quality men” – perhaps because they spent their twenties learning through experiment to distinguish between genuinely nice guys and Nice Guys™, and learning through in-depth conversations with their friends (both male and female) why someone might actually be a good catch (or otherwise).
And that’s exactly what I hope my daughter ends up doing, as it’s a distinction that I want her to be fully aware of. Fortunately, she’s growing up in an environment surrounded by happy couples who are happy at least partly – if not entirely – because they treat each other with genuine respect, and it’s already very clear indeed that she’s not prepared to take any shit from anyone, so I’m pretty relaxed on that score.
I also cannot imagine any of the women I know being anything other than physically revolted by Mikey’s attitudes. He’s grotesquely sexist (he even described a supposed friend as “a young thin super sexy blonde with curves in all the right places”), none too subtle about his racism (the stressing of “white girls” as though their darker-skinned counterparts were beyond redemption already), and convinced that embittered creeps like him are “quality men” even though they’re completely open about their preference for someone younger and “hotter” over someone who might actually be a plausible soulmate. He makes my skin crawl, so I can only imagine what his posts must look like from a female perspective.
Still, one thing’s certain: we’re not the ones “living in denial”.
He still hasn’t let us know what marrying him would be like. “I dunno, uh, we’d have sex, and then I’d tell her not to age ever, and then she’d… do whatever women do when they’re not having sex with me, I guess?”
Or, more likely, “and then she would cook my meals and clean my house and present my children to me for an hour or two after making them presentable, as if I were a Victorian bachelor and she were all of my household staff rolled into a single person.”
Obscenely wealthy* Victorian bachelor. Most people obviously didn’t live like that.
“And keep the table legs covered at all times, lest they rouse me to unseemly thoughts.”
Here’s a tribute to older women in relationships. It’s “Older Women” by Ronnie McDowell. Enjoy.
PUAs have only two settings when talking to women: Neg and Threaten.
“Getting nowhere? I think he’s actually doing the opposite of what he thinks he’s doing.
Face it, most of us usually go through each day without consciously thinking about how grateful/ contented/ thrilled – how happy we are with our lives.”
Yep.
“So the net result of Mikey’s efforts here is to remind all of us happily partnered people how lucky we are and all of us are reminded how wonderful it is not to have a Mikey in our lives.
We win!”
Not to mention all us happy and unpartnered people. I’m 39 and single and female so the very picture of the SPINSTER Mikey so despises. Have been having some frets about turning 40 in eight months, but Michael’s made me feel much better. I can rejoice that I’m not weighed down by someone like me.
Oops, I mean like him.
It’s like Michael thinks that if he says something often enough, he can make it true. Hate on, hater. Keep wishing upon that star. Maybe by some miracle it will work and we’ll get a sad. Even if we do, the universe does not contain enough sad for any of us to trade our lives for being shackled in our youth to a fucked up sexist hater like you. You’re not a nice guy. You’re not husband, boyfriend, lover, friend, fuck buddy, or even one night stand material. Maybe if you worked on yourself a little more, you could change that. But no. you’re so lazy and entitled that instead you’re trying to scare ladies into settling for a cold turd like yourself before they can get out in the world and see just how wonderful life can be.
During a conversation in my school days I remember one of my male friends saying, “Hell no, I don’t want a virgin! I want a woman who can appreciate me!” We were laughing and having fun, but he had a point. When you value yourself and your skills as a lover, experience and discriminating taste in a partner is a good thing.
It really is funny that he thinks match.com is a source of scientifically valid and weighty data.
OK, Mikey, where did match.com get its data from? From the users on its site? There’s nothing inherently wrong with a dating site gathering data about its users, in order to better serve them, but you’re not going to be able to generalize that very readily to the general population.
I’m going to try to make this as easy as possible for you. What you want is original, peer reviewed research and/or statistics from the Census Bureau, the CDC, the NIH, etc. Try Google scholar. What you have to establish is:
1. Women over 30 are more likely to be single than be married or in a relationship;
2. The above makes women unhappy;
3. Men only want women under the age of 30;
4. Women in their 20’s have sex with lots of men, then “settle down” with one man in their 30’s;
5. The above makes the marriages of those people unhappy;
6. Women over the age of 30 have absolutely no worth.
From your ramblings, this is what you seem to be saying.
Just repeating that Dalrock has “graphs and statistics” isn’t enough. We have no idea where he got those numbers or if he just pulled them out of his ass.
You have to show us where the numbers come from. The original research. No one here is going to go to Dalrock’s blog and give home page hits; we have better things to do. Your the guy who hangs out there and thinks he’s right; your the one who came here and started the argument; so you are the one responsible for providing the proof. We aren’t going to do it for you.
I actually don’t think you’re capable of doing any of the following. You appear to have no idea what constitutes evidence, nor do you seem to understand logic. But hey, prove me wrong, Mikey! Dig up an actual study!