Dalrock, a manosphere traditionalist with a great love of charts and statistics and other accoutrements of SCIENCE, has managed to figure out a way to stretch “don’t be so picky, ladies, or you’ll get old and ugly and no man will ever want you” out to 1500 words.
Here are a few of them:
Men foot the searching costs in the marriage and sexual marketplace (MMP & SMP). This means bearing most of the risk of rejection and expending the bulk of the resources to facilitate the process of meeting and getting to know one another.
Oh dear. We’re off to a very unpromising start here.
As the ones who bear the costs of courtship, men have a strong incentive to minimize the number of women they court and the overall duration of time spent in the process. However, as the consumers of courtship, women have an incentive to draw the process out as long as possible and to receive courtship from as many men as possible.
Here’s some surveillance footage of an average American woman being courted by several men.
But now — get this — the ladies are waiting longer to marry!
Just think about what this does to the dude navigating the marriage market hoping to “maximize his Pareto efficiency,” if you know what I mean and I think you do.
He needs to manage risk vs reward. When courting, there are two fundamental risks. These are the risk of wasting resources on the wrong women, and the risk of rejection harming the man’s reputation/MMV.
So watch out, ladies, because if you wait too long, guys are going to decide you’re not much of a bargain!
For a man who is managing the risks of courtship outlined above, the age of a woman is very important. The older a woman is, the more likely it is that she is very picky and/or not seriously looking for a husband.
Exactly! Because women never change their mind because they’re, you know, in a different stage of their life or anything.
Older women also are less attractive from a courtship perspective because they have used up more of their most attractive/fertile years, and while their attractiveness for marriage has declined their expectations for courtship have only increased.
This reminds me of that famous joke, you know, where that woman approaches Winston Churchill at a party and says, “Sir, you are drunk.”
And he replies: “And you, Bessie, have used up your most attractive/fertile years. But I shall be sober in the morning, and you will still have used up your most attractive/fertile years.”
That Churchill, what a card!
Consider the 25% of current early thirties White women who still haven’t married; unless they are terminally unattractive an awful lot of courtship has almost certainly been wasted on them.
Are there really a lot of guys who look back on the women they dated in their twenties and think, “boy, I wasted a lot of courtship on those gals! I mean, I wasted nearly 14 courtship on Jessa alone!” (Also, who knew that the women are always the ones to blame when heterosexual couples in their twenties break up?)
They aren’t just bad bets for courtship today, but (in retrospect) they clearly were bad bets for courtship for the last 15 years. …
Put simply, the extended delay of marriage by women has placed marriage minded men in a dilemma; older women are (generally speaking) known bad bets for courtship, but half of early twenties women are also poor bets for courtship.
Well, you could always marry a dude.
There are only two logical ways men can respond to women’s extension of courtship.
Wait, really? Please, please, please, let one of the ways be “marry a dude.”
The first logical choice is to recognize that these women are debasing marriage, and decide to “court” for sex and not marriage.
Damn. Anyway, sexual relationships are fine, but you are aware that there are other kinds of relationships — sorry, “courting” — besides sex and marriage, right?
Ok, we still have one more. Marry a dude. Marry a dude. Marry a dude.
But while “courting” for sex is a logical choice, it is not a moral choice, and we still do see men courting for marriage. For these men, having a fairly low age cutoff makes a great deal of sense.
That’s your, er, “solution?” Marry a teenager? Or a woman at most in her early twenties?
As Dalrock knows, but doesn’t want to believe, those who marry when they’re very young are much more likely to divorce than those who marry when they’re older. For evidence, see this chart, which I found elsewhere on Dalrock’s own blog:
But hope springs eternal for modern misogynistic manospherian marriage market minded men (MMMMMMM).
It just occurred to me that Ferris wheels move really really slowly. If the cocks are on a Ferris wheel no wonder it takes your entire 20s to get round the whole wheel.
Erh, okay.
I couldn’t find the ACS 2012 data, but the ACS 2009 data about marriages is freely available from the Census, and it’s located here.
http://www.census.gov/prod/2011pubs/acs-13.pdf
Of particular interest are pages 12-14, explaining the historical trends (And the rising median marriage age of men and women both)
A possible explanation offered is the shifting acceptability of age ranges, and the points at which someone is considered capable of supporting a family, plus shifting societal standards in relation to the acceptable range of marriage.
It all boils down to, as the report says: “Greater porpotions of men and women in 2009 marry later and across greater range of ages than was the case in 1970 and 1988”.
So, statistically, people are getting married in a wider way and within larger interconnection groups, while experiencing less pressure to marry at a younger age.
Other tidbits include 4 million marriages and 2 million divorces, approaching that 50 % rate that’s so in the vogue to talk about, but lifetime marriages of people over 15 still being 167 million (ie, a lot).
… what was your point with wanting us to sort through this data? That people are happily getting married and divorving when those marriages don’t work out, and that a wider range of people across all ages are finding mutual happiness at their own speed?
… and this is bad? Dear lord, why?
Test post
This is pretty much the question we need to ask after every single conclusion guys like this make, really.
Like GrumpyCat, I found this quote a bit to simple minded and Hallmark card-esque for Rand. To google!
1)I found a amusing parody.
2) I found a blog that traces several versions of this quote on Ayn Rand Memes bouncing around.
They first point out how stupid the quote is.
They then find the real quote that had been dumbed down for Dalrock fans and other chuckleheads.
3) Protip: If you want all the fertile young ladies to see you as husband material, don’t blindly parrot conservative memes bouncing around Facebook. None of them are true.
4) You would not believe the sorry collection of people who lovingly quote something Ayn Rand fake said. A lot of investments in gold and professions of climate change denial, along with the usual Libertarian douchebaggery, take wing and soar powered by it’s comforting insipidness.
I’m having trouble posting the link to blog that traces the Rand quote.
http://tinyurl.com/l65e2gc
Michael, it’s ok.
Noone is going to make you marry someone you find unattractive.
There is nothing wrong with wanting to have children.
You don’t have to be attracted to Sandra Bullock. Noone will make you go to any of her films.
However, you do need to understand:
Noone is going to force anyone to marry you.
There is nothing wrong with not wanting to have chldren.
Lots of people are attracted to Sandra Bullock and lots of people pay to go and see her films.
Variety – it’s spicy!
Should read “Its comforting insipidness”, but me not proof read good.
Did anyone else see that TED talk with Hans Rosling? http://www.gapminder.org/
The Don’t Panic lecture is about studies on world population and how all of the things that Mikey McTrollpants thinks are horrible will actually be our species’ salvation because current trends have us maxing out at 10 billion people (which is still a lot, but apparently theoretically sustainable)… all because people are getting married later, having more equitable marriages in general, have access to reproductive options, and are only having one or two kids as a result. It’s pretty cool stuff.
That’s very convincing.
That’s very convincing.
You and men like you can do whatever you want with your love lives, but your decisions don’t actively punish non-traditional types, sexually active unmarried women, spinsters (aka women over 30), single mothers, feminists, carnival ride enthusiasts and the loser men that love them. (I’m going to assume Michael doesn’t include non-heteronormative types in his bleak Christ-approved sex market worldview.).
However, please keep stamping your feet and denouncing strangers, it’s adorable how you think anyone here will take your dire threats seriously.
I think I know exactly how the troll will respond to that.
(troll voice) Listen, if girls aren’t forced to get married as teenagers then what is even the POINT of saving the world, huh? (flips table)
I fail to see why this matters to Michael at all (aside from the obvious reason that it is deeply personal because he has a persecution complex). If women are either a) choosing to get married later and that’s their prerogative, why do you care? or b) they made the “mistake” of waiting too long and now end up with a “loser”, again why do you care? The only way this can matter to you is if you feel you are entitled to a young hot piece of ass that is being denied to you. News Flash: women are people, not objects. They do not belong to you, and their value as people is more than their various body parts. So who cares if women get some wrinkles after 30 or 32 or whatever the magic number is today? People fall in love for more than looks, sadly for you that means you have to improve upon your actual self which is probably a lot harder than going to the gym or devoting your life to making money (at least for some people) because that requires taking a deep, long, hard look at yourself.
Oh yay! Mikey-poo has come back to scream and lecture us to death some more! Woohoo!!!
Gee, Mikey, you say that like waiting for marriage is a BAD thing. Spoiler: It isn’t. Except maybe for prats like you, who apparently need a wifey to wipe their bums and diaper them.
And how do you know what “a huge chunk of women on this site” are? Have you taken a survey? Citations please!
Oh, trust me, we know. We know enough to know that they don’t all think like you. And that’s a GOOD thing.
Shorter: “Bake me a cake, bitch, before I decide that you’re too old and ugly for my poor, sad widdle boner!”
As for women being sexy past 40, that’s not a fabrication. It’s reality. I’m over 40 and find younger guys routinely expressing interest in me. No, I’m not paying them. And I’m not the work of a great plastic surgeon, either. Shocker: There are guys out there who like BRAINS. There are also guys out there who don’t care that I have no desire to breed (and never did). Bigger shocker: There are lots of them! Obviously, you are not one of them. That’s fine by me…because I don’t want you.
All these scare quotes! Oh, my poor widdle bwain! And again with the bad fairground ride analogies! You ARE aware, I hope, that on Ferris wheels, one is stuck in the same car throughout the ride? Even when one wants to get the hell OFF?
Now listen, little boy. As I’ve never had the slightest interest in reproducing, at any age, I couldn’t care less that I rejected a lot of not-so-hot dudes during my twenties. Do you think we are easily driven to, or by, desperation? Do you really think that women who DO want kids, want to give their prospective children the shitty life that comes of having a “quality” man who argues, lectures, harangues, and oppresses their mother? You have a lot of learning to do, so sit down, shut up, and quit with the lecturing. Cram your talk of “rules” sideways. You don’t get to make the rules for women.
Oh, bollocks. Your “guy talk” is not responsible for anything. It’s my choice not to live with an asshole like you. And, shockingly, I’m happy not to be putting up with your shit.
Bollocks again. The best men I know are grateful for feminism. It’s taught them what right and wrong really mean. It’s saved them from turning into bitter little assholes like you.
Ha, ha. Sorry, dude, but my very existence (and that of the guys who like me for who I am, not some digits on my birth certificate) proves that you haven’t a clue what you’re prattling about. Best shut up before you make a further ass of yourself.
You are a pompous, ignorant turd, and you have been served. Ignore THIS reality at your own peril.
Yep, like I said earlier, if men like Michael don’t want to marry me, oh well. Even it were true that *all* men were like Michael. Feel even more relieved about this after Michael’s second comment. Grumpy Cat is not impressed, dude.
One of the many things you fail to grasp is that *maybe we don’t actually need to be married to be happy and fulfilled.*
Well done on the Ayn Rand quote dissection, Brooked. Betcha Michael feels silly now. Or he would, if he possessed a modicum of self-awareness.
I see censorship is practiced on this blog. My response to Cassandraskitty (I.E. the exception to the rule) was deleted.
You ladies don’t seem to know what men want despite its simplicity and obviousness.
You miss the point that although women are able to (currenty) marry later the quality of men available to you rapidly diminishes compared to the type of man you could have nailed down at 25. Its just a fact.
Instead, believing yourselves equal to men, and trying to match us at our own game you spend your twenties parceling yourselves out to a string of men fully expecting to be like Cassandraskitty. This worked in the past when men were largely unaware. But now they are aware.
I live in the SPINSTER capital of the U.S. Los Angeles, CA. I cannot tell you how many of these thirty something’s put themselves in my personal space or hit on me. I’m not interested. I’m 34 and dating a 23 year old. I actually feel sorry for many of these women becuase its clear they have never had to approach or hit on guys let alone game them. The most recent was a 35-40 year old I almost felt bad for her. I could see she USED to be hot but was now 35-40 unmarried totally charting unfamiliar territory.
Women in thier teens (unless they develop later) and twenties have endless options at thier fingertips. When you spend your life like this its only natural to feel it will never end. Your youth and fertility are sensed by men. Also your innocence or lack or experience. That’s another thing. Experience. The older women become not only are they less desirable in physical appearance with declining fertility they are more experienced and thus jaded.
Why do I want to go to Vegas with a 34 year old who has already been 4 times whilst pounded by Ex’s during her most fertile years? I just spent the past week in Charlotte NC with my 23 year old girlfriend in a corner Penthouse hitting up the city. I spent thousands of dollars. Why would I ever be interested in spending thousands of dollars on some past her prime, been there done that, jaded 30+ women who’s “had her fun” (while ignoring me) and parceled herself out to a string of men who all had her sexual market peak?
What do the words “I love you” mean when she has stared into the eyes of dozens of men over a decade or more and repeated those same words to Dave, Paul, Rick, Mike, John, Andrew, Steve, Greg, Philip, Tom, Jason, Peter, Billy, Jake, etc etc etc etc? Doesn’t the fact that a women not only chose to be like this and even if they didnt consciously choose to be like this and had a decade or more to get it right but didn’t attest to something?
I suspect most of the women on this site are 30+ singles and SPINSTERS. Good luck following in the footsteps of Cassandraskitty. Assumng she did not marry the kind of men we talk about she is an exception the the rule. Most of you will not be able to pull this off after 30+. It’s just a fact. Dalrock backs all his articles up with statistics and the source of those statistics. All statistics continue to show men are on a “marriage strike” and the numbers of unmarried women over thirty continues to grow.
Women’s have it all plans, and wishful thinking to the contrary not withstanding..
PARTY!
And at a party, there’s almost always CAKE!!!
Will it ruin the cake if we stick scented candles into it? The cake can be very large, and the candles very small.
On the marriage stats, they also ignore people who live in other types of partnerships (e.g. civil union, de facto). The stats treat LGBT people as invisible, because until all those people can get married, their relationships can’t be counted by definition. It also perpetuates the link between religion and partnership, because many countries have people basically xtian-splaining that marriage is between a man and woman, as approved or sanctioned by god. I really don’t know why there is such a continued focus on marriage in official statistics, as this focus privileges marriage as the “most important state to be in as an adult”. It’s not.
This is another particular irk of mine: the statistics that get presented after every census on “out of wedlock births” (at least, in New Zealand, YMMV). Many of those births will be to people in stable relationships, so the use of the term “out of wedlock” and the focus on it seems to be peculiarly old-fashioned. Again, it comes back to privileging marriage.
@ Kiwi Girl
“The stats treat LGBT people as invisible, because until all those people can get married, their relationships can’t be counted by definition.”
This has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
The topic is men avoiding women who have wasted their courtship years and “used up their most attractive/fertile years” riding a Ferris wheel of cocks (apologies to those women who are exceptions to the rule – we cannot believe your stories and have no way to tell you apart from the bad ones).
Just so you (and the author of this blog) know: 99.99% of men on Dalrock and other ‘Mano-sphere” websites (MGTOW, PUA, BETAS etc.) are straight males. These men are only concerned with issues directly affecting straights (just as gay and lesbian couples have their own issues within their own communities). Frankly we do not need lesbian and gay statistics clouding the data.
We want to watch this play out. 🙂 The vast majority of Westernized women seem to believe they can “have it all” after they waste their most valuable years at the track betting on all the wrong horses.
Let’s see what happens 🙂
Mikey, first off, cool story, bro. The hot 23 year old, the penthouse, very cool. It would be even better if you threw in some international spy intrigue and action, but still. Very entertaining.
No he doesn’t. Neither have you. Citations, please, bro.
And I’m really, really sorry that a middle aged woman actually approached you and talked to you! How horrifying! But you got through it, bro!
Statistics continue to show that not only do women not care if men like Mikey are on a marriage strike, those particular men are so insignificant that their decisions were never going to make any different to the statistics anyway and nobody has even noticed their “strike”.
Michael, child, nobody CARES if you and the other misogynists don’t marry or have relationships. Or rather, we’re delighted to think you’re not inflicting yourselves on any woman. You have nothing to offer. You also aren’t the majority of men.
Wow, Bina, the blockquote monster’s really after you today! 😯