One of the issues that many Men’s Rights activists profess to be Very Concerned About is prison rape. This alleged concern translates into essentially zero actual activism beyond the occasional indignant reaction to someone making a terrible rape joke about men in prison. But then they’ll turn around and make similar rape jokes themselves.
That’s right: MRAs don’t only joke about rapes in which women are the victims. Like many Americans, sadly, quite a few MRAs seem to think that rape is an appropriate — and even sort of hilarious — punishment for men they don’t like.
For evidence of this, one needs look no further than a recent discussion on The Spearhead, in which WF Price’s followers fantasize about disgraced “feminist” and confessed almost-murderer Hugo Schwyzer being raped in prison.
In his post, Price notes that Schwyzer, if convicted on felony DUI charges for a recent incident that left a woman seriously injured, will be facing time in prison. He takes the opportunity to speculate, with evident relish, on the possibility of Schwyzer being beaten by other prisoners for being, well, less than a real man, in Price’s eyes.
Noting that prisons have “sensitive needs yards” for those who might be at risk for being attacked by other prisoners, Price writes:
These special prisoners include gang snitches, celebrities, physically frail prisoners, child molesters and homosexuals. …
Although I’m not an expert on this, I’d assume Hugo Schwyzer would fit the sensitive needs profile. As a feminist, liberal white male with bisexual tendencies, I can imagine that many of the general population inmates would quite enjoy giving Hugo a beating, for the entertainment value if nothing else. There’s nothing that screams “hit me!” quite like a snarky, passive-aggressive white nerd in prison. If he is effeminate on top of that some form of violence is a near certainty.
Price’s remarks are merely the opening salvo. In the comments, various Spearhead regulars are much less circumspect about expressing their desire to see Schwyzer physically harmed — and, specificaly, raped — in prison. They don’t even seem to care much about his actual, confessed crimes; they want him to be raped for being a feminist. (Note: The comments quoted below may possibly be triggering, so proceed with caution.)
Dannyfrom504, who apparently has served time, starts it off by writing that
he’ll be happy to know there are in fact feminists in prison, but they dono’t call them feminists. they call them, “my bitch”.
Geographybeefinalisthimself hopes that Schwyzer gets raped so as to “set an example” for people like, well, me:
As for me, I hope that Hugo does NOT get special treatment when being incarcerated to set an example for all other male feminists (and I stand by my position that all male feminists are like Hugo, including Futrelle). …
I’d give anything to know Hugo dropped the soap in prison and got sodomized so often that he contracted HIV or an incurable STD and lost bowel control because of how many times he had been repeatedly sodomized. After all, why should his not being raped be more valuable than that of any ordinary inmate who doesn’t denigrate almost all other men for not being feminist enough?
Rotten jokes that
Maybe Hugo Schwytzer will come out of prison with a real understanding of Rape Culture.
And a commenter with the ironic name Ethical praises Price for writing such a fair and balanced post. No, really:
Despite Schwyzer’s habit of ridiculing issues affecting men who’ve suffered cruelly at the hands of misandrist laws, this article very admirably took the high road, refraining from wishing evil on the man. Incredibly magnanimous, given Schwyzer seemed to entertain himself heaping scorn and ridicule on men in the meat meat grinder of false accusations, paternity fraud, or alimony or child support slavery, even at the same time that more than a few of those men were being driven to commit suicide.
And then takes an even lower road himself:
While I admire the high mindedness of this article, I also believe that if Schwyzer does find his way behind bars there would be some justice in him being surrounded by at least some of those unfairly jailed for child support, false rape, or other causes he might have implicitly or explicitly ridiculed. As high minded as it is … articles like this can only help identify the man to a demographic that could not easily be more hostile to his contemptuous liberal self. And his identification can only increase the likelihood that one way or another, his sins will be very harshly addressed.
Once again I present to you: The greatest human rights movement of the twenty-first century.
Schwyzer, who has confessed to the DUI as he earlier confessed to almost killing an ex-girlfriend, deserves to spend time in prison. He does not deserve to be raped. No one does.
Anyone concerned about the appalling epidemic of rape in American prisons should visit the website of Just Detention International, an organization devoted to ending this barbarism.
“it ignores the rapist and focuses on the victim, as if rape was some force of nature.”
Yep. My biggest problem with people wishing rape on people is that you can’t wish that without wishing that other people are rapists.
“This may be the best description of feMRA YouTube videos I’ve ever read. I snorted a little red wine out of my nose.”
And I made scoffing sounds through a mouthful of smoke. Betting yours didn’t feel any better!
“Having been clinically depressed myself, I have a fair idea of the forces at work there. They are terrible, especially the suicidal impulses, and I can only wish anyone similarly afflicted a complete recovery.”
Ok, on one hand am I entirely not comfortable explaining just how well I understand that (*waves* hi, frequently suicidal manic depressive over here). On the other, have you read his account of it? She was broken and killing them both was the only thing he could do for her. And that’s a very stripped down version of his long tale on what an attempt at a hero he was.
See, I get, all too well, wanting to take someone you love with you…and I feel like a horrible person for having wanted that. He doesn’t seem to have any remorse for having TRIED.
Ugh, WordPress, stop messing with my profile.
Yeah, I read that…fucked up to the nth degree. There’s no excuse for it, and none for wishing him ill, either. All I wish for him is to wake up to what all he did wrong (including the really fucked-up knight-errantry of that episode), and stop rationalizing, and strive to actually make amends to something (or someONE) other than his “brand”.
Him actually fucking realizing how horrible he is, and not just pulling a woe is me for the sympathy and attention, would truly be a pleasant change of pace. With him though, I think the best we can hope for is that people stop paying attention and he stops getting his attention fix and goes to do something less destructive.
Bina – amen!
Ok, sorry if someone already posted this. I just got home from work, it’s 1:45am, and I want to post this while it’s still fresh in my mind, so I haven’t gone through all the comments yet.
The first thing that springs to my mind is that when MRAs talk about prison rape, they fail to realise that the main perpetrators of prison rape ARE OTHER MEN. (At least in the popular narrative. Certainly in their own narrative, what with their references to “dropping the soap”).
The second thing is that they don’t seem to realise that one of the aspects of prison rape is still a continuation of the rape culture that is perpetuated against women. With reference to calling men “their bitch” and calling someone the “girlfriend” of another prisoner, this further reinforces that the victims of prison rape are being reduced to the status of women, and that that status is shameful. Arguing that victims deserve it for their crime further parallels the argument that women deserve it for their so-called crimes.* If rape culture didn’t exist, would this aspect of prison rape be so prominent in our understanding/unspoken approval of the issue?
I hope that made sense. I just spent an evening filled with annoying people….but luckily no drunks tonight!
*I do not believe that the “crimes” used to justify women’s rape are in actuality equal to the crimes used to justify prison rape–being a child molester is obviously not the same as wearing a short skirt. But the viewpoint that one’s behaviour can justify rape can be paralleled. I just wanted to double clarify that because I’m very tired and may not be entirely coherent.
It makes perfect sense, canuck_with_pluck. It also highlights how hypocritical MRAs are when they complain about prison rape, because this sort of shit shows their real thinking. Rape is something done by Real Men to put lesser beings – men they dislike, women, children – in their place. They don’t really disapprove of rape at all; they just want to be able to use it with impunity.
freemage, thanks. “a vast, vast difference between that reaction and condoning the institutional conditions that permit such a thing”–that really helps me order my own confused thoughts.
I want to add my voice to others who have said: Moma Sita, I do understand your feelings.
My gut reaction is, I wish people who rape (or do other horrible crimes that violate people) could experience what they’ve done to others. It SEEMS as though that would teach them something, and somehow balance the universe. That’s the basis of our notion of justice, I think. Best case scenario: that person would suffer, and realize: Wow, that’s how I’ve made others feel. I was wrong. I won’t do that any more.
Of course, the reality isn’t like that. As others have said, the reality is that A) Prison rape happens to people who are in for all sorts of crimes, including totally victimless crimes, and crimes where the perp really didn’t intend to hurt anyone (ie, robbery.) Also–
B) The really heartless offenders aren’t going to learn anything by being violated. They were probably violated in their childhood, and are now past learning better. Meanwhile the people who could learn better, aren’t going to learn anything from violence except to become harder and less empathic toward others. Also–
C) We should try to be better than those we oppose, however strong the temptation to sink to their level.
I say this as someone who has a lot of anger, and isn’t a particularly “good” person. I don’t feel bad for revenge fantasies, but I do think they belong in the realm of fantasy–not reality.
I’m just feeling the water but am I the only person who doesn’t care if a rapist is raped?
As a person who was raped, I want less rape not more. My rapist was raped himself, and that contributed to why he raped me. I’m not seeing how him getting raped again does anything but add more suffering in the world, not less.
Lady Mondegreen: I’m down with everything you said, except I’d probably veer away from the “violated in their childhood” narrative. Some were, some weren’t.
@katz, I don’t mean necessarily physically violated. I have trouble believing that anyone is born without empathy–of course, I could be wrong. But there’s a lot we don’t know about how psychopathy develops. It’s hard for me to believe that anybody is “born bad.”
I don’t agree with rape being used to “punish” rapists.
Rapists SHOULD go to prison.
I dunno; it’s a complex question. But (and psych people can come correct me here) it’s not necessarily most likely caused by abuse or harm: These sorts of mentalities are just as likely caused by special treatment that has made them feel entitled to whatever they want or kept them from ever learning that they should respect other people.
I agree Katz.
I worry that my opinion on the matter is bias.
I work with sexually aggressive youth and many of them had sexual abuse in their past. And my brother was also a SAY growing up. And we came from an abusive home as well……So, it colors my view on the matter.
Goodness. I have no idea if my post was super coherent.
Bedtime for me.
katz, I agree. Look at the fact we live in a rape culture. Look how easy it is for men to grow up with the subtle, and unsubtle, message that women aren’t really human, that we owe them (not just sex, but “owe” in general), that they have the right to do as they wish with or to us. I think entitlement and resentment at any questioning of that entitlement play a huge part, far more than childhood emotional or physical abuse.
Melody: You have actual experience on the topic and I don’t so I will certainly cede to your observations.
@kittehserf
I’ll agree a lot of the youth I work with have issues with feeling entitled to things.
@Katz my evidence is merely anecdotal. I’d love to see some statistics on it.
Nothing but a pack of ineffectual sad bastards with equally sad revenge fantasies.
I agree that our culture makes some young men feel entitled, and allows them to feel justified when they rape. But hopefully some of them are ignorant but not incapable of empathy. I like to think that a person who grows up with the minimal necessary amount of love and respect–whatever that is!–with their own boundaries not entirely disrespected, will be capable of empathy for others, even if sometimes it is buried and circumstances can cause them to overlook it.
A lot of us grow up hurt and angry, but still not so destroyed that we can’t feel for others.
Unless they really can’t feel empathy at all, surely they still could still grow morally.
I can imagine somebody growing up feeling entitled, and, say, taking advantage of somebody who was drunk. But I think unless they had been utterly destroyed, and ended up with a personality disorder, they would be capable of facing the fact that they had done something wrong, and feeling remorse, and growing as a person. While a psychopath would be somebody who simply couldn’t feel remorse. Which is sort of like a mad dog: they can’t help being the way they are. You shouldn’t be vindictive toward them, but neither should you be naive, because they’re never going to change: they need to be kept away from others.
@whiteknight
Heh. Gotta wonder: utter lack of reading comprehension, or cowardice so overwhelming he couldn’t bring himself to read the comments at all?
This was really, really well put. I think philosophers are often too keen on separating retributive views on justice from consequentialist ones… Obviously, you can do that in principle, but I think it’s rare for laypeople to have “pure” retributivist or “pure” consequentialist intuitions regarding the justification of punishment. They’re usually really mixed up with one another, and one way they’re mixed up is explained in the above quote – a wish for someone to suffer what he himself brought onto others usually involves him realizing that this is how his victims felt and therefore it was wrong. It’s not merely that you wish for someone to suffer in response to his crimes, you imagine this suffering as a kind of learning experience.
And as Lady already pointed out, it’s a common intuition, but it doesn’t have much to do with how reality works. Regardless of where rapists are coming from, everyone who exhibits shitty behaviour will always justify that behaviour to zirself. Rapists will think that what they did wasn’t really rape for one reason or another – but if they themselves get raped, they will consider this instance of rape to be real honest-to-God rape-rape, and therefore completely incommensurable with what they did to others.
I started thought-experimenting this “Rapists should be raped in turn” thing, and it led me to wonder if a more appropriate wish would be for rapists to have recurring nightmares of being raped. That way, they’re still suffering what they inflicted on someone else, but there’s no actual increase in the amount of rape in the world.
Then I realized that, what with the cyclical nature of sexual abuse, many rapists probably already do have recurring nightmares of being raped. :/
Good morning all! Om mani padme hum, Blockquote Monster be appeased…
Yes, that would do him a world of good…and the rest of the world likewise. I try to empathize, but my bullshit detector keeps going off, too.
BTW, if anyone’s interested in a little reading, here’s something I blogged back when the fit hit the shan. (The comments are off because I set my troll/spam filters to stun and put a time limit on how long entries stay open, so apologies to anyone wanting to comment. I’ve dealt with a lot of seriously abusive trolls in the past, hence the excess caution.)