Categories
all about the menz antifeminism kitties men who should not ever be with women ever misogyny MRA patronizing as heck reddit

Men’s Rightser on the Bechdel Test: “Why do Women need to talk to each other ? I don’t get it.”

kittens!
Talk amongst yourselves.

So some Swedish movie theaters have decided to institute a new rating system to let viewers know whether or not the films they show pass the Bechdel Test — that is, if at any point in the film two female characters have a conversation about something other than a man.

Over in the Men’s Rights subreddit, a fella with the classy handle classypedobear takes strong exception to this terrible affront to human decency. His argument?

classypedobear 28 points 1 day ago (37|9)  This test is BS, simply. I think what they are trying to accomplish is noble but that is where the good stops.  Why do Women need to talk to each other ? I don't get it. I have plenty of female friends who get along better with males. If two women hav a conversation about their kitten or their baby ? I think it's even worse.  Bad idea overall

Wait. WHAT IS WRONG WITH TALKING ABOUT KITTENS?

Thanks, AgainstMensRights subreddit!

Subscribe
Notify of
guest

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.

236 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Chie Satonaka
Chie Satonaka
7 years ago

Couldn’t tell if he was trolling on his way to some sort of racial “gotcha” so I didn’t bother to engage. The Help obviously has other issues beyond women talking to each other — yet another film that shows white people leading the Civil Rights movement.

Arctic Ape
Arctic Ape
7 years ago

Arctic Ape: You’re Finnish? Can you explain sisu?

It refers to a personal ability or mode of behavior that pushes you through hardship, physical or mental. Usually expressed as “you have sisu/it was done with sisu”.Some people might give more specific definitions, but those might not be commonly agreed on. Some people like to pretend sisu is something Finns are especially good at, or something foreigners cannot understand.

gelar
gelar
7 years ago

If they wanted a test along similar lines (is there one?) at least one good rule might be: “does not use violence/aggression to solve a problem.”

Athywren
Athywren
7 years ago

Holy crap… did good say something worth reading?!

@Viscaria

This probably sounds silly but honestly this is so hurtful and upsetting to me. It feels really gross to know that there are a not-insignificant number of men out there who refuse to see women as people living rich, full lives. It’s like they think we disappear the moment they stop interacting with us. That’s how little we matter.

I understand what you mean, but I think you’re giving them too much credit. I honestly think most of them refuse to see any other human as living rich, full lives. It’s doucheyness by solipsism more than anything else.

@gelar

If I may waste everyone’s time:

[hilarity ensues]

Best giggles of the evening!
*stands*
*ovatifies*

@wordsp1nner

Incidentally, the Nanonovel I’m procrastinating on kicks the ass of the Bechdel Test, but the first-person narrator is a lesbian, so…

Mine too. :3 The reverse Bechdel too. It completely fails the Vintermann test though. So far, one man has made a personal sacrifice for multiple women… and about twice as many men. And it’s ultimately meaningless, since all but two of them are vaporised twenty minutes later. I feel really bad about that… I didn’t mean for them to be, but there’s really no way out of it.

Mazel
Mazel
7 years ago

A little late in the thread, so it’s probably been said already. I question the necessity of a rating like this, personally. Why can’t Western media figure out what Japan already has and just make more shows with a wide range of female characters in them? Not to say Japan doesn’t have it’s drawbacks, but this is one thing SOMEONE seems to have gotten right.

katz
7 years ago

Holy crap… did good say something worth reading?!

Nope.

often_partisan
often_partisan
7 years ago

Oh come on Katz, give him credit, he did manage to write a post without crapping out a random link…;)

katz
7 years ago

It refers to a personal ability or mode of behavior that pushes you through hardship, physical or mental. Usually expressed as “you have sisu/it was done with sisu”.Some people might give more specific definitions, but those might not be commonly agreed on. Some people like to pretend sisu is something Finns are especially good at, or something foreigners cannot understand.

I’m fascinated by the words in different languages that relate to their cultural identity (eg, virtus in Latin, sophrosyne in ancient Greek). American English has no such word that I know of. Because we have no culture.

Athywren
Athywren
7 years ago

Plus, The Help is a pretty decent film… though I’m sure we could find some WRAs to argue that it’s bigger tree’d against white peoples.

Robert
Robert
7 years ago

I remember watching “The Women” (original version) with my first husband back in the 1980s. He was from Panama, and so, despite being a gay man, had never heard of it. About an hour in, he turned to me and said, “I just noticed, we haven’t seen Mary’s husband yet.”

I honestly can’t remember if any of the characters talk about anything BUT men, though.

Viscaria
Viscaria
7 years ago

@Athywren

I honestly think most of them refuse to see any other human as living rich, full lives. It’s doucheyness by solipsism more than anything else.

Hmm. I’m inclined to disagree. I’m a lot less upset now though. 🙂

CassandraSays
7 years ago

Yeah, I’m going to have to disagree with the idea of the Die Hard franchise as an example of strong female roles in movies, or as progressive in any way. It’s a classic backlash movie in that it frames the attempts of the women who’re associated with the male lead to be independent from him as obstacles that he has to overcome in order to become the hero who will save the day. With the wife in particular her attempts to separate from him are a bad thing that our poor hero has been afflicted with, and her recapitulation to the idea of letting him take back his rightful place as the dude who owns her is a major part of the narrative arc.

There were lots of movies with backlash themes at the time, but I can’t think of any off the top of my head that were as obvious about it as Die Hard. Falling Down has obvious backlash themes too, but at least in that case you have the “wait, I’m the bad guy?” speech to frame things a bit differently.

kittehserf
7 years ago

cloudiah, that kitty is amazing! Spring-heeled Cat. 🙂

Gelar – belatedly adding to the applause. Loved your script.

I think I’ve figured out Mr “could anyone’s life pass the Bechdel test”‘s problem. The only “women” he knows are RealDolls. They probably don’t talk about him or anything else when he’s not around.

Though if they do … heheheheh.

Shaun DarthBatman Day
7 years ago

“The thing I really can’t get past (now that we have this last film) is that they added a “buddy” character in Justin Long (who was very charming in the role, I admit) to accompany John and to be his comedic foil in the fourth movie and kept the daughter as a hostage. Then in the last movie, we meet the son, and he gets to be the “buddy” character and the comedic foil, giving him a status that was never given to either Holly or Lucy. It just really irritated me.”

Fucking agreed. However, the movie was not as good as the rest of the franchise (except 3. Nothing, not even liver, was worse than 3.), and I know men who feel this too without thinking about the *why*. I think the why is the lack of a strong and capable woman. Everyone loves Holly. Everyone loves Lucy (even if they mistakenly call her her father’s daughter and not her mother’s, really that pissed me the fuck off and I can’t get over it, it is a complete betrayal of Holly). I also think that the “buddy” (his son) became a big stupid lug like his father, whereas the “buddy” in 4 was shown to be intelligent and capable of foiling the bad guys, even though he got damselled, too.

Brooked
Brooked
7 years ago

@Robert I loved Are You My Mother?, but like you say, it’s not at accessible as A Fun Home. I recommend both books, but it’s a good idea to read A Fun Home first.

@Dvärghundspossen Joel Mchale’s Jeff is the main character, but Community is great ensemble sitcom that focuses plenty of time on the three flawed, quirky and very human three female characters.

@Artic Ape The latest version of Batwoman/Kate Kane debuted in 2006, she’s a supporting character in the Batman section the DC universe. She had a feature in Detective Comics, written by Greg Rucka and drawn by mainstream’s comic most talented artist (IMHO), JH Williams, which is collected in the Elegy graphic novel, which I highly recommend.
She got her own solo book in 2010, with JH Williams co-writing, with W. Haden Blackman, as well as drawing the majority of the issues. It’s the first mainstream super hero book with a lesbian lead and it rocks, but sadly Williams and Blackman quit the book after issue 24 over editorial interference. They were frustrated that the editors were willing to let Kate and Maggie Sawyer become engaged, but flat out refused to let ever them get married. I actually haven’t read the the book since they left, but will probably check them out after my anger at DC subsides.
JH Williams is drawing Neil Gaiman’s new Sandman book and the art is beyond gorgeous, because he’s mainstream’s comics most talented artist (again, IMHO).
I also highly recommend the amazing comic Promethea by Alan Moore and Williams, where Moore creates his own alternate universe Wonder Woman.

katz
7 years ago

Joel Mchale’s Jeff is the main character, but Community is great ensemble sitcom that focuses plenty of time on the three flawed, quirky and very human three female characters.

Not to mention two male minority characters, one of whom has a mental condition.

Brooked
Brooked
7 years ago

@Robert The Women is the ultimate “bitchfest” movie, since it only has female characters that endlessly bicker and fight, and all the other women are so awful that Mary flees to get back with her cheating husband. For me, the performances made watching the movie worthwhile, despite the endless cliched, sexist “cattiness”. Rosalind Russell is a blast.

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

RE: Mejas

As a gay man, I do NOT prefer to have all-male casts. I don’t watch for fanservice.

RE: Buttercup

Ooh, ooh, I’ve got some! My Neighbor Totoro, Spirited Away, Castle in the Sky, Princess Mononoke, Coraline! Miyazaki movies are actually really good about that! And again, Volver (though warning, there is sexual violence in it!)

RE: wordsp1inner

What’s fun about the Bechdel test is it’s so embarrassingly simple. But honestly, the Vintermann test would be best solved by only having men as background characters! There, they never have to undergo adversity or sacrifice anything!

RE: Good

Seems that most of the conversation between women in movies is discussing how to deal with the male antagonist.

Then why don’t we see more female antagonists? Ursula, Cruella, and Maleficient are AWESOME Disney villains! And I LOVE the Other Mother from Coraline.

CassandraSays
7 years ago

Um, if we’re being honest, I do watch some things for fanservice. I’d get bored pretty quickly if those were the only things I ever watched, though. I guess some guys never do?

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

RE: CassandraSays

Enh, that makes sense. I guess in my case, if I want fanservice, I’ll go full-bore and grab something actually intended to scratch my gay romance itch. I’ve discovered ‘fanservice’ mostly means, ‘two pretty white men touching each other but NO HOMO BRO’ and that really grates on me. No, I don’t want two straight guys with homoerotic subtext, I want FUCKING QUEER PEOPLE DAMN YOU.

CassandraSays
7 years ago

With the fanservicey stuff I watch the subtext isn’t so much a subtext as a giant flashing neon sign. Thanks for catering to the female audience, Japan and Korea.

(That would actually be an interesting discussion, why the media there does tend to make much more effort to appeal to women as consumers, and why American media doesn’t. I guess rom-coms are supposed to appeal to some women but they just annoy me.)

Shaenon
7 years ago

Good, did you actually SEE Kill Bill? The women in the film don’t actually spend all of their time talking about Bill.

It’s been a while since I saw “The Color Purple,” but I’m pretty sure the women talk about things other than men in that one, too. And as fascinating as Dabney Coleman is, the women in “9 to 5” talk about things other than him.

Quentin Tarantino always writes awesome female characters. I think it’s less because of whatever feminist sensibilities he may have and more because he happens to find strong women sexy (and if they can also go around barefoot, so much the better), but when you’re a lady moviegoer you take what you can get.

CassandraSays
7 years ago

That puts an interesting spin on the guys who prefer the female characters that are common now.

“I like boring. Boring but hot, that’s my preference.”

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

RE: CassandraSays

Yeah, I’m not a huge fan of yaoi (or bara much either, for that matter) but at least it’s a thing that exists. I have a big chip on my shoulder how fandom here seems to think queer romance is two straight guys who look at and touch each other, all the while joking about how now gay they are. That ain’t fan service to me; that’s just dangling a shiny in front of my face and going, “At least you get to IMAGINE having this!”

But then you have things like Noah’s Ark and all those mad feelings fade away…

CassandraSays
7 years ago

Eh, I’m thinking more of incidental fanservice in TV shows/magazines and concerts rather than of yaoi, which often has rather creepy abusive dynamics. I don’t like manga in general, and the more yaoi-ish anime just doesn’t appeal to me at all.

Trying to watch or read yaoi just makes me wonder why the people who write it fetishize unequal relationships most of the time. BSDM I’d be fine with, but the idea that one person being controlling and abusive towards the other person is romantic gives me hives.

CassandraSays
7 years ago

Also, I count stuff like “this guy has mysteriously lost his shirt for no apparent reason” as fanservice. Anything that’s there purely to appeal to the audience’s desire to letch counts, really.

titianblue
titianblue
7 years ago

@Dvärghundspossen, I have one word for you – “Miranda”

titianblue
titianblue
7 years ago

Ah, @cassandrasays, the joy of Bollywood, especially Salman Khan films. It is now established that Salman must lose his shirt in the climactic fight scene. My personal favourite was the one where the villain throws a molotov cocktail at him. Salman rips off his own shirt, beats out the flames with it & fights on. *fans self*

CassandraSays
7 years ago

If only he’d paused to strangle a bad guy with it that scene would be perfect.

wordsp1nner
wordsp1nner
7 years ago

@ titianblue: I had to google Salman Khan, and oh, yes…

I think the comments on MensRights about having female villains was supposed to be a “gotcha feminists” response, on the basis of “well, feminists don’t want women to be portrayed in a bad light.” But I love female villains–at least if they aren’t sexpots (not a huge fan of that archetype).

CassandraSays
7 years ago

I guess they’re projecting again? They resent it when they see male villains, so they assume we’d resent female villains. Because everyone is just like them!

Stop laughing, the fact that they believe that isn’t hilarious at all. You misandrist, you.

(I’m sure that Salman Khan whipping his shirt off is misandry too and someone will be along to explain why soon.)

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

I’m having fun imagining what these guys presume women talk about all day.

A conversation:

Fran: “BABIES BABIES MAN SHOES?”

Roberta: “TJ MAXX SALE MAKE UP GOLD DIGGING SHOES!”

Fran: “KITTEN!” 😀

Roberta: “MARRIAGE!” 😀

kittehserf
7 years ago

katz, love it! 😀

CassandraSays
7 years ago

Fran : False rape accusation now?

Roberta : Not until Macy’s sale is over. Jewelry!

gelar
gelar
7 years ago

Haha, thank you very much, katz! I’ve been struggling to type something that doesn’t devolve into gleeful sounds, so I’m just going to go read your comics over again!

cloudiah
7 years ago

katz & gelar have made a wonderful thing.

kittehserf
7 years ago

Fran: chocolate or bonbons?

Roberta: does my arse look big in this?

Fran: kittens!

Roberta: BABY kittens!

Fran: *swoons*

CassandraSays
7 years ago

Roberta : Baby kittens sitting on cupcakes while filing for divorce!

(Scented candles fall, everyone dies.)

katz
7 years ago

I wonder if men (or these sorts of men) actually have worse recall of conversations between two women versus the same conversation between two men. Wouldn’t that be an interesting study?

kittehserf
7 years ago

(Scented candles fall, everyone dies.)

Or the alternative ending: they are rescued by Manly Menz even though that is a terrible sacrifice to demand of Manly Menz for mere women.

Alice Sanguinaria
7 years ago

kittehs – And then the women return to the kitchen, where they belong, and having learned their lesson, and the MRAs cheer. End.

kittehserf
7 years ago

That’s it, Alice!

Brooked
Brooked
7 years ago

@Katz
Pierre fresh out of the oven, good stuff!

katz
7 years ago

Well, it doesn’t actually involve Pierre at all, but I did draw completely new art for each panel. I’m seriously breaking new ground here.

neuroticbeagle
7 years ago

Clearly, Pierre is the one watching the movie. 🙂

kittehserf
7 years ago

I was thinking Pierre could have taken a job as a movie hero. But then his hat might have got knocked off in the fight.

Or – ooh – Poutine could come in, scratch the evil professor, and rescue Pierre! ‘Cos that’s what cats do.

katz
7 years ago

His mustache would have to have gotten knocked off in the fight, too.

Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

“I wonder if men (or these sorts of men) actually have worse recall of conversations between two women versus the same conversation between two men. Wouldn’t that be an interesting study?”

Yes, yes it would be. And since my brain is currently working in functions and flow charts, I’m sorta designing the method for that without wanting to >.<

To cover your bases you'd want eight groups, four male and four female, and four films — two conversations. So, for either study gender, you'd have half watching the female clip first, half watching the male clip first, and then half of those groups watching either conversation.

Covers order effect and whether the topic of conversation is the problem. (If you really wanted to be sure, double all that and have the second set watching one clip from either pair, but now we're into "really Argenti? There are 30 people in the class, you want sample sizes of 4?")