I don’t know how I missed it, but a couple of weeks back Vice posted a short video about that EARTH-SHATTERINGLY HISTORIC Men’s Rights rally in Toronto that captured the attention of the world a tiny fraction of a percentage of people in the world (including the people at it and readers of this blog) a little over a month ago.
Alas, WordPress won’t let me embed the video here, but you all need to go look at it. Not only does it capture pretty well what a dinky event it was, but it also contains a bunch of mini-interviews with some A Voice for Men folks that are rather revealing.
The most revealing one of the bunch starts about 2:40 into the video, when AVFM’s Suzanne McCarley explains that
Men, as a class, have never ever oppressed women, as a class. Men have always protected and provided for women. And protected them from oppression from others.
From others? What kind of others? Like, space aliens?
Women have never objected to this, and in fact have always been grateful because it’s how they survived. It is only in the last few hundred years when women of privileged class who don’t even know what they’re being protected from feel disadvantaged because they’re not comfortable with the level of protection they have.
Wow. A few hundred years? Sometimes people accuse MRAs of wanting to take us back to the 1950s. McCarley apparently wants to take us back to the 1750s.
They don’t even understand what they’re being protected from.
Wolves? Sharks? Dishpan hands? Space aliens?
They have no concept how dangerous the world is for them but gosh they’re just not happy because, you know, the males in the family tell them what to do and make all the decisions for them and control all the money. That’s not oppression. That’s protection.
Wow. So I guess slaves and prisoners are the most protected classes of all.
It’s what kept our species alive and what built … [she gestures at the park and the buildings around it] this beautiful city.
Wait. I thought Jefferson Starship built this city. On rock ‘n’ roll.
Anyway, there’s also some footage of a speech about the evil oppression of white men given by an unknown speaker at the rally. He also complains that men working for the government are men who’ve had “their things cut off and are toeing the politically correct line.” (Hopefully after the bleeding has stopped.)
There’s an interview with Paul Elam, who for some reason looks like he’s wearing mascara (which I’m pretty sure he isn’t). He delivers this puzzling pronouncement:
Looking at men in government and saying they have all the power is like looking at women in grocery stores and saying they have all the food.
Not only is this way more revealing about gender inequality than Elam may realize, but it’s also a tad ironic, because Elam not that long ago used (unreliable) data about how women “control” most consumer spending — that is, they do most of the shopping — in order to argue (twice!) that women were the ones primarily responsible for destroying the environment.
There are assorted other bits of misinformation and ignorance and just plain old bigotry from the MRAs.
There’s also some commentary from the counterprotesters that made me wince. No, MRAs aren’t all Marc Lepines waiting to happen. They’re shitty enough people as it is; you don’t have to compare them all to a misogynist mass murderer to make your point. And in fact, you undercut yourself with that kind of rhetoric. Focus on what they actually say and do. It’s bad enough.
And the “racist, sexist, anti-gay” chant? Drop that. MRAs are, for the most part, driven by misogyny — not by other bigotries. Yes, some are racist, including one of the speakers featured on this very video, but that’s not the driving force for most of them. Some are homophobic, but that’s not the driving force for most of them. Some are transphobic — including Elam himself — but that’s not a central issue for most of them.
It’s worth pointing out these other bigotries, but to make these issues the centerpiece of your counterprotest is to miss the point — it would be a bit like attacking the Ku Klux Klan as “sexist and racist.” I’m sure plenty of KKKers are sexist as hell, but with the Klan racism really is the main thing; with MRAs, misogyny is.
And in this case it gave AVFM’s Karen Straughan the opportunity to appear (at least for a moment) like a reasonable person by pointing out that she in fact is not straight.
Anyway, watch the video. It’s amazing.
Intersex, of course! ::is embarrassed::
Stupid, yet predictable, results of not ever coming up with proper rules for how the room was governed: It didn’t seem right to discuss what to do with someone in front of them, so they were going to temporarily remove you while people decided, and then of course nothing ever got decided because we still didn’t have any actual rules to work with, and then the whole place exploded and that was that.
Meanwhile, I tell the mods that I’m uncomfortable with Darksidecat and it’s all “Surely you’re not telling us to kick zir out without a trial or anything!”
It happened with admissions, too: People like Argenti getting hung up in limbo for no reason, and then mods admitting someone without asking anyone and being like “It’s cool, they’re my friend.”
That whole room was an absolute drama factory. The “nuke it from orbit” idea is a good one, but it also seems sketchy to me to just delete all the drama, since then it will be a lurking memory that nobody will be able to verify or look up the details for.
kittehs – Questioning, unsure, intersexual, lesbian, trans*, bi, asexual, gay.
CassandraSays – Same here. I can’t imagine it.
Also, the pho’s because I get hungry and I’m cold.
(Raises eyebrows) Um, wait. We’ve all encountered that situation where your friends have a friend who you think is horrible and you’re not quite sure why they’re friends with that person but you sure don’t want to be, right? If people were sharing private information in that space that sounds flat-out dangerous, letting people in just because one person happened to like them.
Not officially, of course, but effectively. Because there were things you could say that weren’t against any written rule, but that would immediately bring about a concerted effort to silence you. And the unwritten rules were things that no normal person would ever guess, like “no telling people that they’re being assholes” and “no using analogies.”
But it was inconsistent: When I tried to suggest that people shouldn’t import and export drama (ie, when there’s a big fight on one site, go talk about it on another site to try to get other people involved), suddenly everyone was all letter of the law and if it wasn’t explicitly written in the rules, it was completely fine.
(I still remember having this conversation with a former coworker about this one guy in his friends group who he actually had to pull out of a taxi into which “friend” had followed a woman who they knew who was so drunk she could barely walk, clearly intending to follow her home and rape her. “Why do you hang out with him if you know he would do something like that?”, I asked? Well, I don’t like him but he’s always been part of the group and X and Y seem to like him, I got in response. Ugh.)
Thanks, Alice! 🙂
Does anyone here use demisexual (always makes me think of demitasse) or grey-A?
It sounds more and more like the Secret Room was a meltdown waiting to happen, as it was organised, or rather, not organised. It’s also just struck me today that even the name sounds a bit … I dunno, us and them, potentially cliquey (cliquish?).
kittehs – No problem. Still trying to figure out who I am sexual orientation wise, so we’ll see where on the asexual thing I stand. 🙂
Also, other variations would use Queer for Q (I think that’s more accurate), and Ally for A (which goes back to the “invisible orientation” thing again).
The “I’ll get back to you on that question” category! 🙂
@Pecunium
I’m sure you already know this, but there’s a fairly common belief among atheists that religious belief does harm others. That it provides cover for deeply troubling views and behaviours; such as that Catholic scandal that almost certainly needs no further description. Or exorcisms that are essentially just ritualised child abuse. Or that gay people somehow need to be “cured.” Or women dying in hospitals because the doctors won’t “murder the unborn child” who is already dying and taking the mother with zir.
Obviously this view is missing a fairly obvious matter; that it’s extremism and privilege which cause and cover for these things, not belief in a god. I mean, you still get the bizarre beliefs here in England where, despite a fairly thoroughly integrated church and state, we’re pretty secular. But people generally react to them with confusion and “what have you been smoking?!” expressions. The behaviours, though, almost never happen, and, when they do happen, happen mostly within insular, secretive groups – essentially, extremist groups with high privilege within closed social spheres.
There was a time when I believed that a world without religion would be a better place (though not a perfect place, since there’s more than one cause of bad things in the world). But these days, I’d be perfectly happy to see extremism gone, and truly secular nations where religion is not given preference over the lack thereof, and where no one religion or sect is given preference over any other. Where respect is earned by being decent and reasonable, rather than by being religious. I think that could happen without the eradication of religion, and I think it should. If nothing else, the kind of thought-policing necessary to actually get rid of religion makes me very uncomfortable.
I’m hoping to see more atheists recognise that, although there may be an argument to be made that moderate religiosity provides cover for extreme religiosity, it really is the extremism that’s the problem, and not the religiosity itself.
Also, athiests? Snrk. We are the most athy people in the whole wide world! Fear our ath!! 😛
@toujoursgai
:3
I’m pretty pleased to hear that. I mean, firstly because “yay, excited people!” but also… before Argenti said anything, I thought I might’ve just been fooling myself or subconsciously trying to be cool or something. Then I had one data point of other people feeling the same way as me. Now two. It’s quite reassuring. I mean, it’s not concrete evidence, but maybe it’s a sign of the phenomenon itself rather just of me playing pretendsies without telling myself. 🙂
@Falconer
That’s the Gnasher Goblin. He steals teeth from the tooth fairy’s secret stash and, when everyone’s asleep, he jams one into an unsuspecting child’s mouth. It’s quite nasty, actually. He likes to put them in at wonky angles and in weird positions. That’s why so many people need braces.
Damn you, Gnasher Goblin. Damn you!
@Argenti
Well, I’d like to contribute, but I just don’t know if I could write enough for it to be worthwhile. My problem is that I’m just too handy when it comes to brevity! 😛
But, on a more real world topic, if it’s going to be more aimed at general feminism than the manboobzy stuff, I’m not sure there’d be much for me to contribute. I’m more on the “MRAs are unskeptical douchecanoes” thing than anything else, and pretty ignorant of actual feminist thought beyond what I’ve picked up from my overladies in places like this. Maybe I could be the embedded atheist feminism correspondent? I dunnoes… perhaps there’s room for a Kerbal Space Program correspondent? (How does that relate to feminism, you ask? Because it’s pretty awesome, and feminism is pretty awesome, therefore they’re related. QED.)
Ha! I fear no ath from a wren!
::splutter::
::giggle::
More likely the Kibble Space Program here.
Space- that’s the thing hoomins do not need (especially on beds and couches) right?
Dear Manboobz, I have a Furrinati problem. My cat has recently decided that she needs to sleep on my feet, or right where my feet would be if she wasn’t pushing them out of the way. Why is this, and how do I make her stop? There’s plenty of space for her, so why must she sleep in the most inconvenient spot possible?
Dear Worried:
There is a simple solution to your problem. Build an extension on your bed; it only needs to be about eigheen inches to two feet wide.
This should provide you with ample sleeping room, allowing your cat to sleep without the inconvenience of pushing your feet out of the way.
Yours,
Aunty Boobziquette.
@Cassandra
She does this for two reasons: she can and it is comfortable (for her). You cannot make her stop- she is a cat and the cat will do whatever the hell they want.
If she is doing this while you sleep you can try to sleep elsewhere, like the couch, but be warned she may follow you if she is more concerned with her heated pillow (you) than with the bed.
If she is doing this while you are awake and doing something (like watching tv or manboobzing) the best thing to do would be to buy fuzzy slippers to make it more comfortable for her.
And be glad it’s just your feet she’s sleeping on.
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/da/9a/8c/da9a8c025e04f08354f0a6e08d0ddbc4.jpg
http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/ad/66/b6/ad66b6283e6430d99db65b02fc7670d7.jpg
Dear Manboobz,
When I have attempted to sleep on the couch she has followed me there too, but it’s even worse – she sleeps on my head!
I feel that this may be a sign that the Furrpocalypse is about to begin.
Get a heated blanket?
“no using analogies” = a rule pecunium broke every five minutes?
Athywren — remember that whole humorous subsection? Go review scented FUCKING candles or something! (Or dig through the more recent trolls for “misogynist trolls say the darnedest things”)
Neuroticbeagle is in charge of the Furrinati section though, because nobody else can compete with those skillz!
And an article on “submissive” Asian women, and I’ve got an email offering to do one on the problems with bigoted jokes, two articles and I haven’t finished the theme yet! This may actually happen! 😀
neuroticbeagle should be the editor of ALL the photos, she has the skillz!
Dear Worried,
It is evident the cat is concerned that sleeping on the couch is bad for you, so she tries to persuade you to return to the bed.
She wouldn’t sleep on anything as uncomfortable as a human head for any but the most altruistic reasons.
Dear Worried,
This is not a sign of the Furrpocalypse; it is normal cat ruling over human behavior. You exist to tend to the cat’s every whim, including being a pillow.
There is one last thing you could try:
a box.
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/2a/14/cf/2a14cf382a1b54e5d9dcb922b68d344b.jpg
http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/67/fb/9b/67fb9ba2325d8924e13d448e40c55cfd.jpg
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/c8/6c/40/c86c40b7c84b30e2ba1717ee142f1058.jpg
http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/cb/69/3c/cb693c0aa37845808ab35694c29b8207.jpg
If the box fails, well at least your feet/head will be warm.
Furri Minion
Speaking of boxes, my brother took the cat out on Halloween. By which I mean he picked up the box she was in and brought it out to the porch with us. She climbed out, sniffed the pumpkins, climbed back in, climbed back out and we all had a brief moment of terror as the indoor cat started moving fast…straight for the door back in.
Apparently the last time she got out they found her huddling by the wood pile utterly terrified, sniffing the pumpkins was a big step for this indoor kitty (FTR, he was within grabbing distence of her he whole time, and has thick skin, literally, she doesn’t hurt him when she claws him)
This is TRUTH about cats and boxes.
http://youtu.be/J11uu8L8FTY
I tried to give my old cat a little pumpkin once, on the principle that a lot of cats like pumpkin. It was small enough that he should have been able to bat it around, but he just chewed on it occasionally.
::preens::
::Head swells::
http://media-cache-cd0.pinimg.com/736x/ef/26/f0/ef26f094e73e96c89d9cc5a8e0764069.jpg
POP! Furry paw deflates ego and demands to be fed.