I don’t know how I missed it, but a couple of weeks back Vice posted a short video about that EARTH-SHATTERINGLY HISTORIC Men’s Rights rally in Toronto that captured the attention of the world a tiny fraction of a percentage of people in the world (including the people at it and readers of this blog) a little over a month ago.
Alas, WordPress won’t let me embed the video here, but you all need to go look at it. Not only does it capture pretty well what a dinky event it was, but it also contains a bunch of mini-interviews with some A Voice for Men folks that are rather revealing.
The most revealing one of the bunch starts about 2:40 into the video, when AVFM’s Suzanne McCarley explains that
Men, as a class, have never ever oppressed women, as a class. Men have always protected and provided for women. And protected them from oppression from others.
From others? What kind of others? Like, space aliens?
Women have never objected to this, and in fact have always been grateful because it’s how they survived. It is only in the last few hundred years when women of privileged class who don’t even know what they’re being protected from feel disadvantaged because they’re not comfortable with the level of protection they have.
Wow. A few hundred years? Sometimes people accuse MRAs of wanting to take us back to the 1950s. McCarley apparently wants to take us back to the 1750s.
They don’t even understand what they’re being protected from.
Wolves? Sharks? Dishpan hands? Space aliens?
They have no concept how dangerous the world is for them but gosh they’re just not happy because, you know, the males in the family tell them what to do and make all the decisions for them and control all the money. That’s not oppression. That’s protection.
Wow. So I guess slaves and prisoners are the most protected classes of all.
It’s what kept our species alive and what built … [she gestures at the park and the buildings around it] this beautiful city.
Wait. I thought Jefferson Starship built this city. On rock ‘n’ roll.
Anyway, there’s also some footage of a speech about the evil oppression of white men given by an unknown speaker at the rally. He also complains that men working for the government are men who’ve had “their things cut off and are toeing the politically correct line.” (Hopefully after the bleeding has stopped.)
There’s an interview with Paul Elam, who for some reason looks like he’s wearing mascara (which I’m pretty sure he isn’t). He delivers this puzzling pronouncement:
Looking at men in government and saying they have all the power is like looking at women in grocery stores and saying they have all the food.
Not only is this way more revealing about gender inequality than Elam may realize, but it’s also a tad ironic, because Elam not that long ago used (unreliable) data about how women “control” most consumer spending — that is, they do most of the shopping — in order to argue (twice!) that women were the ones primarily responsible for destroying the environment.
There are assorted other bits of misinformation and ignorance and just plain old bigotry from the MRAs.
There’s also some commentary from the counterprotesters that made me wince. No, MRAs aren’t all Marc Lepines waiting to happen. They’re shitty enough people as it is; you don’t have to compare them all to a misogynist mass murderer to make your point. And in fact, you undercut yourself with that kind of rhetoric. Focus on what they actually say and do. It’s bad enough.
And the “racist, sexist, anti-gay” chant? Drop that. MRAs are, for the most part, driven by misogyny — not by other bigotries. Yes, some are racist, including one of the speakers featured on this very video, but that’s not the driving force for most of them. Some are homophobic, but that’s not the driving force for most of them. Some are transphobic — including Elam himself — but that’s not a central issue for most of them.
It’s worth pointing out these other bigotries, but to make these issues the centerpiece of your counterprotest is to miss the point — it would be a bit like attacking the Ku Klux Klan as “sexist and racist.” I’m sure plenty of KKKers are sexist as hell, but with the Klan racism really is the main thing; with MRAs, misogyny is.
And in this case it gave AVFM’s Karen Straughan the opportunity to appear (at least for a moment) like a reasonable person by pointing out that she in fact is not straight.
Anyway, watch the video. It’s amazing.
In this case maybe the privilege is never having been in an abusive relationship? Or, I mean, I kind of was, but it didn’t last all that long. It seemed like people who’ve been in abusive relationships were the most likely to find Owly’s method of trolling super triggering.
::snork:: and then willfully misunderstand it anyway!
I wanted to support my friends who were leaving. I was also kind of disappointed at the way David was responding to criticism — though some of the criticism he was being hit with was way beyond okay, and I’m pretty sure I would have responded in a much less respectful way, so that was kind of hugely hypocritical at the time. It’s douchey for me to bring this up on your own site, David, because it makes it look like I’m saying you did something wrong, which you really didn’t. It was something I disapproved of a really long time ago, and my approval really doesn’t mean anything about whether something is okay or not. I just include it for the sake of completeness.
I came back because I missed the site and the people. I tried to make sure that I wasn’t stepping on any toes by doing so >.> but I might not have been as cautious about it as I should have been.
Hypocritical of me, I mean to say.
Insulation of some sort, at any rate, whether it’s something one could call privilege or just good fortune.
@ Viscaria
FWIW, I think pretty much everyone who was around before was happy when you came back.
Wanna hug, Viscaria?
(also anyone else in need)
On the overall shift in tone from very serious to more light, I don’t see that as a bad thing, and maybe it’s kind of natural? For a lot of people the MRA stuff is already so grim maybe adding in humor and kitten videos is what makes it possible to cope with reading it.
I’m pretty “meh” about fuelling it, since it’s been simmering away this whole time we’ve seldom mentioned the thing, and then only in the most tip-toeing way.
Yeah, I’m with Kittehs here. It’s been a YEAR, and obviously not talking about it didn’t make it go away. Also, it’s very easy to come to Manboobz and come to your own conclusions.
I’m not saying turning it into a bashfest, but I feel like never ever even SLIGHTLY discussing it except in the most eggshell way is kind of counterproductive. How can we keep something from happening again if we don’t even know what happened in the FIRST place?
Look, I don’t really give a shit about the people involved. I just feel better having some kind of clue about what happened.
RE: CassandraSays
Honestly, I feel like the comments aimed at LBT and kittehs have been more about not wanting
I think you got cut off here.
Thanks guys. I’m not upset at all, I don’t actually need hugs (though I always like them!) and I super didn’t want to make this about me; more just wanted to check that I wasn’t being rude and then bow out of the conversation. Talk to you guys later. 🙂
Kitty + bunny = AWWWWW
Yeah, I like the shift in silliness, being able to be silly is why I love this place 🙂
As for the insulation, you might be right, it was my inability to get away from him without leaving you all that got to me. Stalker ex I can, and have, blocked EVERYWHERE, but you can’t block an asshole on a blog (or can you? Should I look for a plug-in for this?)
Viscaria, you are a really nice, cool person and I like it when you are around.
One of the reasons this whole thing was so painful (to me) was that you and Ami kind of got caught in the middle, it felt like, and it was totally unfair and not your fault at all.
I wonder if there’s a way those of us who a troll isn’t getting to can help if something like that happens again.
Aha! I still have the compliment fishing trick down? Excellent.
*cough*
But… without the lulz, what is there? I really hate that attitude. I used to be a mod on one of the various facebook atheist groups (Lots of asshole atheists there btw… it’s funny how you never notice just how assholey they are while the other side is also being assholey. Then one woman gets in one lift at one hotel and fucking nuclear hell! I’m surrounded by utter assholes. WHERE DID THAT COME FROM?!) and one of the most common complaints, beyond the fact of our eating babies with every meal, was making jokes. “You know, you wouldn’t find this kind of language and attitude in a board room!” So… what? This is bookface! We are chatting! Sometimes we’re chatting about philosophy, or science, or politics, but we’re chatting. This is not spr srs bznz!
I’ve never understood the idea that jokes had no place in discussion of legitimate topics… and I hope I never will. Especially not now I’ve discovered the MRM, or that misogyny in general isn’t as dead as I’d once believed, because that stuff’s depressing as hell.
BTW, since we’re talking about days of yore, I really appreciate the way that a lot of people here had my back when Mr Al was being extra creepy.
I tend to email David when a troll’s getting under someone’s skin. The Dark Lord’s banned a few for that sort of personal attack.
The whole “This is a Serious thread” and “You’re allowed to be funny on this thread” stuff really doesn’t work for me. I love that we can laugh the trolls to oblivion, or wipe ’em out with the power of Furrinati cuteness, or talk about bra sizes, or whatever. That the laughing and joking pisses them off is a bonus.
I’m not sure why Owly was given the slack he was, those involved in the exodus, that I can get why David wasn’t inclined to pick sides, they were all regulars. But Owly was a regular asshole, in both senses.
I wonder if nobody actually emailed David about Owly? Was asking for trolls to be banned much of a thing then?
I had to exercise great self-control not to say “don’t let the door hit you on the way out” to them in that thread.
Fuck, if we had to stay on topic I’d not be debating getting back to coding for Manboobz: The Magazining. Because
it’ dhabiit’d have never been suggested.On that note, I probably am going to disappear shortly, my brother picked C so comment formatting is next up 🙂
Oh he knew, you haven’t seen the thread where David let him go unmoderated and he went off on how we’re all fucking Jews? And I mean he went OFF.
I’m guessing maybe privilege again (and I’m including myself in the privileged group here, so this isn’t an attack). If the stuff that someone is saying isn’t upsetting you it can be easy to interpret that as “this stuff isn’t that upsetting”. Meller, for example, I never found upsetting even though the stuff he was saying was often appalling. Since David is a man there’s a lot of stuff that won’t bother him personally that might bother a woman, and while it’s awesome that he gets it most of the time without anyone having to point stuff out, it’s not surprising that sometimes some stuff may need to be pointed out. Plus, this place gets a lot of comments, and it’s unreasonable to expect him to pay close attention to all of them – stuff is going to slip through the cracks.
RE: Argenti
I’m okay enough being read as my assigned gender, thus not oppressed, thus none of the oppression trans* people face…no nuance to it.
Hey, some binary trans people handle misgendering better than others. I can deal with being misgendered, but I NEEDED surgery for my peace of mind. Trans issues aren’t as simple as that. Pretending they are is just foolishness.
RE: CassandraSays
if you didn’t like Person X it must be because of their sexuality/gender identification and not because you just didn’t like them very much as people.
*snorts* There are LOTS of trans queer multis I want nothing to do with, because they’re asshats.
it will damage the credibility of manbooz,
We’re a MOCKERY SITE. What credibility do we have? Also, last I checked, being queer had to do with being attracted to certain people, nothing else. IM HERE IN UR QUEERDOM, TAINTING YOUR QUEERPOOL.
a. whether there’s something about this whole conflict that I missed in the first place and b. whether or not it’s fair to talk shit about people who can’t respond.
With respect… that’s a fair wonder. But not talking about it won’t really ease that part of your mind. I dunno about you, but I’m actually feeling BETTER and less alarmed actually talking about it, even in generalities.
And Owly, I think, kind of became a cherished pillar of MBZ. A superfluous pillar blackened by fire that didn’t support any weight, but we were used to having him around, and a lot of people found him entertaining. I’m glad he’s gone.
Viscaria, one of the things I really regret is that there were real questions and issues that could have been addressed for real, including some questions about how David was handling stuff (especially forum stuff), but it all got reduced to “You did that because you hate queer people!”
So if there are outstanding things that you think were wrong, I think you should feel free to go ahead and say so and maybe we can take a calmer look at them now. (But not if you don’t want to, of course.)