I don’t know how I missed it, but a couple of weeks back Vice posted a short video about that EARTH-SHATTERINGLY HISTORIC Men’s Rights rally in Toronto that captured the attention of the world a tiny fraction of a percentage of people in the world (including the people at it and readers of this blog) a little over a month ago.
Alas, WordPress won’t let me embed the video here, but you all need to go look at it. Not only does it capture pretty well what a dinky event it was, but it also contains a bunch of mini-interviews with some A Voice for Men folks that are rather revealing.
The most revealing one of the bunch starts about 2:40 into the video, when AVFM’s Suzanne McCarley explains that
Men, as a class, have never ever oppressed women, as a class. Men have always protected and provided for women. And protected them from oppression from others.
From others? What kind of others? Like, space aliens?
Women have never objected to this, and in fact have always been grateful because it’s how they survived. It is only in the last few hundred years when women of privileged class who don’t even know what they’re being protected from feel disadvantaged because they’re not comfortable with the level of protection they have.
Wow. A few hundred years? Sometimes people accuse MRAs of wanting to take us back to the 1950s. McCarley apparently wants to take us back to the 1750s.
They don’t even understand what they’re being protected from.
Wolves? Sharks? Dishpan hands? Space aliens?
They have no concept how dangerous the world is for them but gosh they’re just not happy because, you know, the males in the family tell them what to do and make all the decisions for them and control all the money. That’s not oppression. That’s protection.
Wow. So I guess slaves and prisoners are the most protected classes of all.
It’s what kept our species alive and what built … [she gestures at the park and the buildings around it] this beautiful city.
Wait. I thought Jefferson Starship built this city. On rock ‘n’ roll.
Anyway, there’s also some footage of a speech about the evil oppression of white men given by an unknown speaker at the rally. He also complains that men working for the government are men who’ve had “their things cut off and are toeing the politically correct line.” (Hopefully after the bleeding has stopped.)
There’s an interview with Paul Elam, who for some reason looks like he’s wearing mascara (which I’m pretty sure he isn’t). He delivers this puzzling pronouncement:
Looking at men in government and saying they have all the power is like looking at women in grocery stores and saying they have all the food.
Not only is this way more revealing about gender inequality than Elam may realize, but it’s also a tad ironic, because Elam not that long ago used (unreliable) data about how women “control” most consumer spending — that is, they do most of the shopping — in order to argue (twice!) that women were the ones primarily responsible for destroying the environment.
There are assorted other bits of misinformation and ignorance and just plain old bigotry from the MRAs.
There’s also some commentary from the counterprotesters that made me wince. No, MRAs aren’t all Marc Lepines waiting to happen. They’re shitty enough people as it is; you don’t have to compare them all to a misogynist mass murderer to make your point. And in fact, you undercut yourself with that kind of rhetoric. Focus on what they actually say and do. It’s bad enough.
And the “racist, sexist, anti-gay” chant? Drop that. MRAs are, for the most part, driven by misogyny — not by other bigotries. Yes, some are racist, including one of the speakers featured on this very video, but that’s not the driving force for most of them. Some are homophobic, but that’s not the driving force for most of them. Some are transphobic — including Elam himself — but that’s not a central issue for most of them.
It’s worth pointing out these other bigotries, but to make these issues the centerpiece of your counterprotest is to miss the point — it would be a bit like attacking the Ku Klux Klan as “sexist and racist.” I’m sure plenty of KKKers are sexist as hell, but with the Klan racism really is the main thing; with MRAs, misogyny is.
And in this case it gave AVFM’s Karen Straughan the opportunity to appear (at least for a moment) like a reasonable person by pointing out that she in fact is not straight.
Anyway, watch the video. It’s amazing.
Don’t leave us in suspenders, what was the rest of the sentence? 😀
Seconding Argenti: being the bigger person morphs too easily into letting bullies get away with it. “Ignore them and they’ll leave you alone.”
BTW, that was my main issue with the way things were going here pre-exodus, that it was implied or assumed that if you didn’t like Person X it must be because of their sexuality/gender identification and not because you just didn’t like them very much as people.
Sorry, hit comment too soon. I felt like the comment aimed at LBT, and some of the similar snark at kittehs, was more “you’re making us look bad” than anything else. Like if kittehs is allowed to talk about Mr Kittehs and LBT is allowed to talk about being multi it will damage the credibility of manbooz, or some shit like that.
“It’s a frustrating situation, and my main concern is making sure that it doesn’t repeat itself.”
Which is why I’ve long tiptoed around explicitly saying anything, for fear of refueling that fire. But idk, the sorts of complaints we’re airing seem like the sort of things that shouldn’t just be brushed under the rug. And, for that matter, noting that you should be able to question if something is oppressive or not, question whether a respected regular is being an asshole…idk, making it clear that this are things we should be able to do makes this a better place? Maybe?
I just know that I were being an asshole about something, I wouldn’t want people to feel like they couldn’t call me on it without being labelled a bigot.
Porridge, mmm …
But it has to have honey. Or else you’re the meanest meanie ever.
Athywren, I think you are an incredibly thoughtful and considerate person and I really appreciate you and your opinions about things.
In any case, please don’t call this topic to a close as I’ve already informed pecunium that we’re discussing it and he won’t be able to comment until later.
On that note, is there a middle ground between “we shouldn’t talk about this” and complaining about DSC and Rutee? Cuz that’s where I think this discussion belongs — on the general atmosphere pre-exodus.
Actually I’ve been lucky, nobody ‘cept a troll or two has tried anything on about Mr Kittehs. That’s one of the things I think is good about this site (apart from my specific bias, lol) – people are decent to each other here these days even if beliefs clash wildly, and the odd descent into assholishness gets called out pronto (and is often enough a mistake rather than intentional, so gets apologised for, too).
Part of my reluctance to bring this stuff up is that people like Ami whose opinions I do respect left too, which makes me wonder if the way I’m seeing things is wrong or there’s something that I’m missing.
Seconding what katz said, Athywren. 🙂
@ Argenti
Maybe talking in general terms rather than “X did Y” is the answer, though if everyone knows who we’re talking about anyway that feels passive-aggressive and sneaky.
Since Cassandra doesn’t want this to turn into a complaining fest, I’m going to turn it into an ass-kissing fest instead XD
From Ami’s comment in that forum thread, I’m not sure how related her leaving was. Sounded like…fuck how to word this…like she didn’t want the responsibility, and I don’t mean to imply anything negative there, just that being a secret room mod and well respected meant that her picking a side in anything would carry more weight than she was comfortable with.
Or like Cliff — left for, as far as I can tell, reasons related to MRAs beings taxing, not this mess.
Idk, I am, obviously, neither of them, but that’s the impression I get from their posts in that thread.
Trying to balance the fact that not everything is about me and being honest and respectful so I’m going to go ahead and say that I, like Blacbloc, left and came back as a part of that whole deal — complete with wanktastic woe-is-me I’m leaving speech — and if that makes anybody uncomfortable I won’t hang around like a creepy doesn’t-understand-boundaries person. And if talking about myself right now is really egocentric I apologize for that.
Eh, seeing things differently isn’t seeing them wrong.
Like Argenti said, I don’t think this stuff should be swept under the carpet, and while it’s obviously painful for some of those (at least) who were involved, I don’t like the idea of the instigators (if they read the blog at all, which I doubt) thinking the reason it’s not mentioned is because people feel guilty about it or something.
If everyone else wants to complain I don’t want to shut that down, just to be clear. I’m just worried about a. whether there’s something about this whole conflict that I missed in the first place and b. whether or not it’s fair to talk shit about people who can’t respond.
I had no idea you were involved, Viscaria!
But for what it’s worth, I’m glad you’re here.
Cassandra – talking about it in general terms would be too much like the veiled references that have cropped up now and then, to me. Plus since names have been named, it’d be sort of stable-doorish.
Cassandra — passive-aggressive maybe, but some of it wasn’t just those two. Like, idk if it’s me, but does this place feel more…silly? now?
Fuck, part of the change, where I no longer worry about Every Fucking Word being taken the wrong way is losing Owly.
And again, maybe it’s me, but we have meltdowns like BlackBloc’s and other people just carry on with what they were talking about — you don’t have to either go to another thread or get involved.
Or religion, while we’re (you and I, but others too) still wary of going there, it can be discussed without “religion is evil” being unquestioned.
@ Viscaria
Honestly, if we’re going to do this, I’d rather know why you felt like you needed to leave at the time (and why you changed your mind and came back). It’s the difference in perspective with people like you and Ami that worries me and makes me wonder if there’s some aspect of this whole mess that I’m not looking at right, because honestly, I was glad when DSC and Rutee left and I don’t miss them.
Viscaria — please stay! You were one of the people I missed when I came back post-exodus (FTR, I went on hiatus pre-exodus and missed everything coming to a head)
And personally, I’m sorta inclined to think that people who come back, and enjoy it here now, are a good thing — means we’ve improved right?
On Owly, see, that’s another difference in perspective, though in that case at least I think I understand the why of it. I kind of wish the eldertrolls were still around in a way because I quite enjoyed nomming on them, whereas with some people I think they found those guys really upsetting and therefore were relieved when they finally left. In this case I’m pretty sure the difference is down to privilege and it insulting me from a lot of the poo that the trolls used to fling around.
Argenti – it’s not just you, and it’s one of the things I like about this site. Like how katz mentioned Feministe, and for me Pharyngula was the same: watching every word because it’s Totes Serious and one mustn’t derail with a funny for more than 4.5 comments, or you’ll get modded.
I really don’t think this is talking shit about people. Observing that they were being assholes (a good reason to name names, imo, so there’s no mistake or generalisation) doesn’t strike me that way at all.
Insulating, not insulting.
Maybe? It wasn’t his take on trans* people that got to me though, it was him hounding me about whatever his latest gripe was Every Time I Commented. I mean, he’d follow me from thread to thread demanding I explain this or that statistic.
I’m in two minds about the eldertrolls. Some of the old threads are greatly entertaining (privilege insulation, too – good term) but I can’t generally be stuffed engaging with trolls and their walls o’ text anyway. They make my eyes glaze over.
Still, it’s something to throw at the junior wannabe trolls, that they’ll have to up their game. 🙂