I don’t know how I missed it, but a couple of weeks back Vice posted a short video about that EARTH-SHATTERINGLY HISTORIC Men’s Rights rally in Toronto that captured the attention of the world a tiny fraction of a percentage of people in the world (including the people at it and readers of this blog) a little over a month ago.
Alas, WordPress won’t let me embed the video here, but you all need to go look at it. Not only does it capture pretty well what a dinky event it was, but it also contains a bunch of mini-interviews with some A Voice for Men folks that are rather revealing.
The most revealing one of the bunch starts about 2:40 into the video, when AVFM’s Suzanne McCarley explains that
Men, as a class, have never ever oppressed women, as a class. Men have always protected and provided for women. And protected them from oppression from others.
From others? What kind of others? Like, space aliens?
Women have never objected to this, and in fact have always been grateful because it’s how they survived. It is only in the last few hundred years when women of privileged class who don’t even know what they’re being protected from feel disadvantaged because they’re not comfortable with the level of protection they have.
Wow. A few hundred years? Sometimes people accuse MRAs of wanting to take us back to the 1950s. McCarley apparently wants to take us back to the 1750s.
They don’t even understand what they’re being protected from.
Wolves? Sharks? Dishpan hands? Space aliens?
They have no concept how dangerous the world is for them but gosh they’re just not happy because, you know, the males in the family tell them what to do and make all the decisions for them and control all the money. That’s not oppression. That’s protection.
Wow. So I guess slaves and prisoners are the most protected classes of all.
It’s what kept our species alive and what built … [she gestures at the park and the buildings around it] this beautiful city.
Wait. I thought Jefferson Starship built this city. On rock ‘n’ roll.
Anyway, there’s also some footage of a speech about the evil oppression of white men given by an unknown speaker at the rally. He also complains that men working for the government are men who’ve had “their things cut off and are toeing the politically correct line.” (Hopefully after the bleeding has stopped.)
There’s an interview with Paul Elam, who for some reason looks like he’s wearing mascara (which I’m pretty sure he isn’t). He delivers this puzzling pronouncement:
Looking at men in government and saying they have all the power is like looking at women in grocery stores and saying they have all the food.
Not only is this way more revealing about gender inequality than Elam may realize, but it’s also a tad ironic, because Elam not that long ago used (unreliable) data about how women “control” most consumer spending — that is, they do most of the shopping — in order to argue (twice!) that women were the ones primarily responsible for destroying the environment.
There are assorted other bits of misinformation and ignorance and just plain old bigotry from the MRAs.
There’s also some commentary from the counterprotesters that made me wince. No, MRAs aren’t all Marc Lepines waiting to happen. They’re shitty enough people as it is; you don’t have to compare them all to a misogynist mass murderer to make your point. And in fact, you undercut yourself with that kind of rhetoric. Focus on what they actually say and do. It’s bad enough.
And the “racist, sexist, anti-gay” chant? Drop that. MRAs are, for the most part, driven by misogyny — not by other bigotries. Yes, some are racist, including one of the speakers featured on this very video, but that’s not the driving force for most of them. Some are homophobic, but that’s not the driving force for most of them. Some are transphobic — including Elam himself — but that’s not a central issue for most of them.
It’s worth pointing out these other bigotries, but to make these issues the centerpiece of your counterprotest is to miss the point — it would be a bit like attacking the Ku Klux Klan as “sexist and racist.” I’m sure plenty of KKKers are sexist as hell, but with the Klan racism really is the main thing; with MRAs, misogyny is.
And in this case it gave AVFM’s Karen Straughan the opportunity to appear (at least for a moment) like a reasonable person by pointing out that she in fact is not straight.
Anyway, watch the video. It’s amazing.
Yeah, “I’m not going to be around any more, you can contact me at…” makes perfect sense, it’s the Last Word-ism that often accompanies it that I find offputting.
A bit wanky? It was the wankiest wank that ever wanked a wank! It was a bald excuse just to air grievances and to convince everyone else to leave too (successfully), no doubt in the hopes of teaching us a lesson by ruining the blog’s whole commentariat (unsuccessfully).
Doubly so when you add that David then removed those folks from the secret room and they then threw a shitfit because they didn’t want to actually leave-leave, they wanted to loudly announce that they were leaving and then still complain endlessly about everything we’d ever done that they didn’t like.
Not just convince people to side with them and leave, no, I think they were more hoping that “the opposition” would be driven off.
It’s a bit wanky in general. Certain people are of course able to elevate it to wank as an artform.
Oh crud, so it was a flounce with added get-off-the-cross-we-need-the-wood!
What really pisses me off is that (iirc) those two effectively bullied lauralot off the site.
At least BlackBloc’s tanty the other day has brought this out in the open at last.
“The opposition” meaning anyone who didn’t agree with them, now and forever, ramen, presumably.
RE: the MBZ thread and the Great Wanking Wank of Wankerdom
Oh look, it’s kladle in the forum thread, that one person who pissed a brick over us being multi. Only on this thread they’re all about protecting LGBT folks and calling out bad ally behavior.
Unless you’re me, apparently. “When he says he’s in a gay relationship or has children, that he means something completely different than what most people mean,” my ass. I guess I’m not gay enough either, even though I’ve been married to a dude for four years. What a chucklefuck.
And as a guy who’s semi-ace and was correctively raped for it, I have VERY little patience with the ‘ace folks don’t belong’ bullshit. And it wasn’t just a shot-in-the-pan either, the “you just need a good deep dicking to fix that up” idea is a societal thing.
Agree that the secret room sounds like a pretty bad idea. I obviously never got in, though I asked about it, and it sounds like that was very much for the best. One of the reasons I actually LIKE this place is that it’s generally very easy and okay to call someone on their shit, and be called out in turn.
It really was like walking on eggshells back then. Between “if I mention that I believe in God, people will make demeaning jokes about me” and “if I tell someone that they are being mean, I’ll be accused of tone trolling” (tone trolling was used to mean that someone could be the most raging asshole you can imagine and, if they weren’t being bigoted to a minority group, you could never, ever say anything about it–not later, not in private, never) and “if I disagree about something being bigotry, I’ll be called a bigot,” you really had to watch what you said or you’d get dogpiled on and then it was all over. There was definitely that Feministe-style feel that everyone was just waiting for you to make a mistake so they could kick you out.
For instance, here a tantrum gets aimed at me for suggesting that brony culture might be indicative of a positive societal shift. It was impossible to have actual discussions about bigotry because you weren’t allowed to take the position that something wasn’t bigoted or was less bad than it was being made out as.
My all time favorite from them? It being implied that I’m racist because I don’t think the mohawk hairstyle is irredeemably racist, just in need of a new name (and Dvärghundspossen had one, as it isn’t called that there)
Oh gods yes to the eggshells! That was basically my issue with not being Queer Enough — bi in a poly relationship, one of whom is genderqueer but nawh, I don’t face open oppression like some people! (Mind, I was politely asked not to come up until after the funeral when my ex-FWB’s brother killed himself…but poly was explicitly not queer by them)
But yeah, can someone who was actually in the secret room maybe fill LBT in via email so he doesn’t feel confused every time this comes up? I wasn’t, so I can’t.
As far as airing grievances and/or irritation against DarksideCat and Rutee, I feel like we should probably quit that. It just feels a bit off to do so here knowing that they can’t defend themselves, even though the decision to not be here was their choice. Why fuel the “oh Manboobz is terrible” stuff they’re posting elsewhere?
THIS. That’s part of why I was nervous about commenting here. A lot of it’s why I hesitated about commenting on Pharyngula, and have decided not to continue, though nothing was aimed at me. Eggshells is the word.
Funny thing is I’d thought the Secret Room would be the place to tell about Sir, safe from trolls, because it felt dishonest not saying what our situation is. Looks like it would have been the worst possible place to do it. (BTW I haven’t forgotten you made it possible to do that, LBT, when I first found you’re multi and accepted here now the place isn’t assholish. I’m bloody grateful for that, tho’ you knew nothing about it, obvs!)
Which was poorly thought out since the blog owner was part of “the opposition.”
A couple years ago I realized that, if someone is making me uncomfortable so that I want to leave a space, I have an equal right to be there as they do and can just as well make them feel uncomfortable until they leave. So that particular strategy doesn’t work very well on me.
(This position puts me in real danger of becoming the person who attempts to drive off everyone I disagree with, and I am really trying not to.)
I wasn’t either, so I can’t help.
As for airing grievances…idk. On one hand, I agree, hence not being the first to name names, on the other…idk, knowing other people felt like they were walking on eggshells is reassuring? But I lived with a gaslighting asshole for nearly a year, my sense of whether I’m right about feeling the way I do is fucked up, so idk what my being reassured counts as. (Wow that sentence structure is horrible and all kinds of meta)
I just feel like a. it’s going to fuel their persecution complex and b. it makes us look like assholes. Don’t think I don’t recognize how the situation was manipulated to be like this, because I do, I’m just thinking that maybe the best way to illustrate how wrong the people concerned were is to be better people than them.
That made me so angry because it was just such a mean, mean, mean thing to say. Kladle could be a really cool person and I know zie would never say about a gay person “when he says he’s married that means something completely different than what most people mean” or about a trans* person “when he says he’s a man that means something completely different than what most people mean,” so it was just awful to pick on you. The worst part is I don’t think zie even meant to be mean: Zie was just in a totally privilege-blind mentality of not even thinking about how it’s not nice to single other people out for being different.
BTW, it’s the manipulation aspect as much as the wank that I find so objectionable about Goodbye Cruel Blog comments. It almost always seems like they don’t really mean “I’m out, see you”, they usually seem to mean that the person is trying to change a dynamic that they don’t like and will be happy to stay if things go the way they’re hoping. It’s rarely honest.
Honestly, I feel like the comments aimed at LBT and kittehs have been more about not wanting
You’re right, I feel entitled to a little bit of venting after a whole year, but I’ll stop. I think we’ve covered most of what happened (short version: being in a minority group makes you entitled to do whatever you want, unless you’re asexual or multi) but anyone who has further questions can email me.
See, I get the idea behind being the bigger person, but, well, I’ve caused myself lots of mental anguish over the years that way and have adopted a sort of policy about it. Manipulating me into silence only makes me want to scream louder, because the alternative — being the bigger person — has always meant having to pretend things are dandy and no of course you aren’t hurting me.
But since they are long gone, maybe it’s moot that giving into the manipulation bugs the fuck out of me.
Blargh. Who needs enemies when your own kind make you look a fool?
Oh, how I wish these people would just make their porridge with milk and leave the rest of us to be reasonable and live-with-able.
And tone trolling? Ffs! Tone trolling is when you complain about insignificant shit, like that people used naughty, naughty language, and pretend that it invalidates everything that’s said. It certainly isn’t calling someone out for being an unremitting arsehole.
For the record, as long as you’re not trying to convert me, I don’t care what any of you believe about god, ghosts or magic chickens; I happen to like you for reasons other than metaphysical beliefs. Feel free to criticise me if I insult any of you with anything I say. Not the magic chicken thing though – that’s mocking presuppostionalists, and they’re fair game. xP
Yeah, I hear you loud and clear on the manipulation aspect, and if people think it’s more important to call that out then I’m happy to back off on the other issue. It’s a frustrating situation, and my main concern is making sure that it doesn’t repeat itself.
With their (or Rutee’s, since I haven’t seen anything DSC has written since) persecution complex, I’m pretty “meh” about fuelling it, since it’s been simmering away this whole time we’ve seldom mentioned the thing, and then only in the most tip-toeing way. If anyone actually reads the squillions of threads since then, and doesn’t do it from the Manboobz Martyrs’ perspective, I’d hope they get the drift that this is not some sort of homophobes’ haven.
They contributed to this being a hugely UNsafe place for some people, and damn uncomfortable for others. I’m glad to see it said. I’m also glad to see it pointed out that they aren’t some sort of official LGBTQ spokespeople. Funny how many LGBTQ folks are on this terrible homophobic site nowadays, isn’t it?
“short version: being in a minority group makes you entitled to do whatever you want, unless you’re asexual or multi”
*or less oppressed than the person doing whatever they want
The oppression olympics of it all bugged me. In general, and personally — I’m okay enough being read as my assigned gender, thus not oppressed, thus none of the oppression trans* people face…no nuance to it. But it’s been over a year, and I was still shaking the mothballs off, so idk how much that feeling was me being extra sensitive to the oppression trans* people face and trying not to be appropriative.
Heresy! All porridge should have milk, and if yours doesn’t then you hate people who eat porridge with milk just because they eat porridge with milk, which makes you a bigot. If you actually don’t enjoy being around those people because you find their personalities grating then that’s irrelevant, you probably just don’t like their personalities because they put milk in their porridge.