I don’t know how I missed it, but a couple of weeks back Vice posted a short video about that EARTH-SHATTERINGLY HISTORIC Men’s Rights rally in Toronto that captured the attention of the world a tiny fraction of a percentage of people in the world (including the people at it and readers of this blog) a little over a month ago.
Alas, WordPress won’t let me embed the video here, but you all need to go look at it. Not only does it capture pretty well what a dinky event it was, but it also contains a bunch of mini-interviews with some A Voice for Men folks that are rather revealing.
The most revealing one of the bunch starts about 2:40 into the video, when AVFM’s Suzanne McCarley explains that
Men, as a class, have never ever oppressed women, as a class. Men have always protected and provided for women. And protected them from oppression from others.
From others? What kind of others? Like, space aliens?
Women have never objected to this, and in fact have always been grateful because it’s how they survived. It is only in the last few hundred years when women of privileged class who don’t even know what they’re being protected from feel disadvantaged because they’re not comfortable with the level of protection they have.
Wow. A few hundred years? Sometimes people accuse MRAs of wanting to take us back to the 1950s. McCarley apparently wants to take us back to the 1750s.
They don’t even understand what they’re being protected from.
Wolves? Sharks? Dishpan hands? Space aliens?
They have no concept how dangerous the world is for them but gosh they’re just not happy because, you know, the males in the family tell them what to do and make all the decisions for them and control all the money. That’s not oppression. That’s protection.
Wow. So I guess slaves and prisoners are the most protected classes of all.
It’s what kept our species alive and what built … [she gestures at the park and the buildings around it] this beautiful city.
Wait. I thought Jefferson Starship built this city. On rock ‘n’ roll.
Anyway, there’s also some footage of a speech about the evil oppression of white men given by an unknown speaker at the rally. He also complains that men working for the government are men who’ve had “their things cut off and are toeing the politically correct line.” (Hopefully after the bleeding has stopped.)
There’s an interview with Paul Elam, who for some reason looks like he’s wearing mascara (which I’m pretty sure he isn’t). He delivers this puzzling pronouncement:
Looking at men in government and saying they have all the power is like looking at women in grocery stores and saying they have all the food.
Not only is this way more revealing about gender inequality than Elam may realize, but it’s also a tad ironic, because Elam not that long ago used (unreliable) data about how women “control” most consumer spending — that is, they do most of the shopping — in order to argue (twice!) that women were the ones primarily responsible for destroying the environment.
There are assorted other bits of misinformation and ignorance and just plain old bigotry from the MRAs.
There’s also some commentary from the counterprotesters that made me wince. No, MRAs aren’t all Marc Lepines waiting to happen. They’re shitty enough people as it is; you don’t have to compare them all to a misogynist mass murderer to make your point. And in fact, you undercut yourself with that kind of rhetoric. Focus on what they actually say and do. It’s bad enough.
And the “racist, sexist, anti-gay” chant? Drop that. MRAs are, for the most part, driven by misogyny — not by other bigotries. Yes, some are racist, including one of the speakers featured on this very video, but that’s not the driving force for most of them. Some are homophobic, but that’s not the driving force for most of them. Some are transphobic — including Elam himself — but that’s not a central issue for most of them.
It’s worth pointing out these other bigotries, but to make these issues the centerpiece of your counterprotest is to miss the point — it would be a bit like attacking the Ku Klux Klan as “sexist and racist.” I’m sure plenty of KKKers are sexist as hell, but with the Klan racism really is the main thing; with MRAs, misogyny is.
And in this case it gave AVFM’s Karen Straughan the opportunity to appear (at least for a moment) like a reasonable person by pointing out that she in fact is not straight.
Anyway, watch the video. It’s amazing.
Oohhh, ninja’ed by babsbeaty!
From what I understand, Canadians do race and ethnicity kind of weirdly compared to, say, Usonians. Francophones in Canada are seen somewhat like Mexicans and other Central Americans are in the USA, and I’ve even read some Canadians say that Anglophones view French as a “non-white” language. It’s all very weird to me, and I’m probably missing a lot of detail, but the bit about the French could probably be replaced with “the Mexicans” or “the Blacks” and it would make sense as a piece of Usonian privilege anxiety.
AK: I am a bit of a cynic :). I just don’t know how someone would even try to begin a dialogue with a person who believes “fuck their shit up” is a reasonable response to feminists.
I think, even if we did like babsbeaty said, and sat them down and asked them exactly what they wanted and magically could give it to them, I still don’t think they’d be happy. I think they’d just find another something to latch onto to rationalize their hatred.
Weren’t most of the protesters from a local gay rights group, hence the chant attempting to frame the MRM as being about generalized bigotry rather than misogyny specifically?
Also, sorry, Vice reporter, but I don’t really feel like cuddling an MRA and offering them support. If you want to, go ahead, but if you’re a woman I’m going to be a little concerned for your safety.
I’ve tried to have dialogues with MRAs. They tend to go… amusingly, but very badly. (Y’all remember Gay Porn Muse guy, right?)
But yeah, it might well be possible to influence someone who’s already part of your life in meatspace away from that kind of ideology, but on the internet? Eh, it could happen, but the odds aren’t very good.
It really depends on what part of Canada you’re from. Most of the anti-French stuff comes from Ontario, and is mostly directed at Quebec. There are francophone communities all across Canada, but there doesn’t seem to be the same kind of animosity. Out west, anyway.
(Not to say there’s no animosity out west; we have PLENTY of racism, homophobia, bigotry, and other stupidity. Just not particularly against the French.)
@bodycrimes ” an awful lot of men asked would go – I want respect! Wave your magic wand and give me respect!”
Very good point. And again I have a conflict between my better self and my not so good self.
I totally get wanting respect. We all need it. And frankly, the men I see in the MRA don’t fit the image our culture has of a man worthy of respect. I am not saying these guys are not worthy of respect, but that our culture tells men and women both they should act and be to deserve respect. I blame that on the sexist, patriarchal standards. They blame it on feminists.
That’s my better side.
My snarky petty side wants to say “Oh, you feel humiliated and disrespected? Boo-fricking-hoo. Get in line. We all feel like that, even the aplpha male who owns the cool car and you think bangs all the chicks, even the hot chick that won;t give you the time of day, even your ex that won’t let you see your kids when you want, even the feminist you think stole your balls. Do what we all did, buddy: put on your big boy pants and get on with life.
@tugley logger, thanks! That makes a lot of sense.
I 1) keep forgetting there is such a strong Canadian MRA movement, and 2) am shamefully unaware of Canadian politics and cultural dynamics.
That’s the odd thing. Go back to, say, the 50s, and those guys would be respected even less than they are now. You’re right that seeing video of that demo makes it kind of obvious why so many of them feel so disrespected, but the thing is, the reasons for that disrespect have nothing to do with feminism. The North American cultural ideal of what a man should be like pre-dates modern feminism by a long, long time, and the women who adhere to it most rigidly are typically anti-feminist.
@sparky, I agree. Giving them that one magic things would not make them happy I am guessing. Because as @bodycrimes said, they want to *feel* respected and honored and important. But no one outside of you can make you feel that. All the respect in the world will not make you *feel respected*.
Lots of people — men and women — are in way worse situations than these guys and still manage to respect themselves, treat others with respect and in turn, are in fact respected by others.
I’ve been a feminist long enough to see that movement go through this phase. My hope is that this is a phase that the movement toward a better life for men (whatever it is called and in theory I have no problem with Men’s Rights) is going though. Not so much hope for the individual men, but the movement as a whole, yeah.
Do they realize how douchey they make men seem? “oh yeah, we men will protect you, but only if you give up all your freedom, rights and let us run your life.”
Can you imagine telling men everywhere that they can sit at home all day in exchange for their freedom and rights, by doing that women will take care and protect them?
Yeah I don’t see them going for that, why should women? Expanding on that idea too, it’s the dangerous job of police officers to protect citizens, does that mean in exchange they should have the right to run our lives? does that mean they should have more rights than everyone else?
I also didn’t see all those women being protected from dying in childbirth either. Your obligation back then was to marry and give birth, despite the risks. Some protection.
babsbeaty:
That would be really good thing to happen. One of the many things about the current MRM that angers me is not only do they not do anything to help men and boys, but that they are hurting the chances of anything being done. I mean, most people are going to be turned off by a movement whose leaders spew hate-filled nonsense. To the detriment of the men and boys who could actually use some help.
Hope that didn’t turn out too garbled.
Yeah, to be clear, this is exactly my perspective. When I hear people I know offline talking about this kind of stuff, I treat them with compassion and reason with them. Online? Well, I’m a regular here on Manboobz for a reason. 😉
I do think a lot of young guys especially buy into this misogynistic crap because of personal pain, and that’s best treated with compassion. But online? Arguing online gets you nowhere. And I think the same is true in impersonal situations like the rally/protesters. Counter-protests are about presenting a vocal counterpoint for people on the fence who might be walking by…not convincing the speakers or people who showed up to support them.
A political rally is probably the last place you’re going to be able to convince one of the participants that maybe their anger is directed at the wrong target, which is why I’m wondering what the person at Vice thinks would have been more effective. Do you just walk up to a random protester and ask them if they want a hug and a chat about whatever is bothering them? Because that seems unlikely to work to me.
re: MRAs as a movement. While I can see how many of them are hurt people who are yearning for some kind of acknowledgement in their personal lives, I also don’t credit them with being a real political movement.
When I was a uni student in the 1990s, I caught the last wave of what I guess was second wave feminism. There was a lot of sitting round detailing how oppressive and rotten the menz were and how it would all be easier if we could turn ourselves into lesbians. But we were still having fulfilling relationships with men, there were lots of men we admired – and, crucially – we were discussing politics and how to change things.
The MRAs don’t. They get on with the women hating, but it’s not linked to any real agenda. Those men who are getting out and trying to change unfair custody laws etc are at great pains to distance themselves from the MRAs. They see them as polluting.
As much as I get a good laugh out of the manosphere, I also think they’re a hate group, not a political group. There’s nothing in any of their writings that comes close to genuine political discourse. It’s all hate, hate, hate, some of which is funny, some of which is boring, but all of which should be treated warily. I could imagine some of the more extreme ones committing violence against women for their cause. So when the Vice writer suggested we should meet in the middle for some discourse, all I could think was – discourse about what, exactly?
[blockquote]@babsbeaty – an awful lot of men asked would go – I want respect! Wave your magic wand and give me respect![/blockquote]
I think the problem with MRAs demanding respect is that, for many of them, their definition of “respect” (when it comes to women anyway) is “I want you to stay at home and make babies and clean and cook for me and be submissive and thin and traditionally feminine and never argue with me and provide sex on demand. And also, any women who do not fit this role are personally disrespecting me and they must be punished for oppressing me with their existence.”
Everyone deserves respect, but the whole thing kind of falls apart when you believe there are different types of “respect” depending on the group of people.
DAMMIT BLOCKQUOTE
“Are women people or pets? Discuss.”
Yeah, I’m not super interested in having that “discussion”.
Well, I guess they’re right about how men protect women from others. I’ve never been attacked by a space alien or a lion or a mammoth.
As for them wanting respect – boo fucking hoo. I am not giving any respect to a man (or woman) who sees me and my entire gender as nothing but fucktoys and slaves who should be honoured to suck some man’s dick but at the same time is begging to be raped and beaten for simply existing outside their ever-changing rules.
Fuck them all.
Ninjaed by tinyorc!
I just can’t imagine being in denial enough to be a FeMRA.
@kittehserf – Haha, ninjaed but your description of an ideal MRA woman is far more to the point than mine!
bodycrimes: “re: MRAs as a movement. While I can see how many of them are hurt people who are yearning for some kind of acknowledgement in their personal lives, I also don’t credit them with being a real political movement.”
I think this is the core of the whole problem with the MRA as a “movement” – they’ve adopted the rhetoric of a social justice movement to address their individual grievances with women. The result is that the whole “movement” is incoherent and full of contradictions, because most MRAs are just using the platform to air their personal issues with women, while trying to dressing it up in language that makes it sound like they are addressing systemic problems that face men as a class. This is why their rules are ever-changing. Half of them are like “Women shouldn’t be in the workforce because women are less productive than men and a woman’s proper place homemaking for her breadwinner husband!” and then the other half are like “Women are money-grubbing layabouts who depend on hardworking men for handouts, they should go out and get REAL JOBS!”
And everyone with even a basic grasp of logic is like “Ok, how the hell can these two point of view exist within the same movement?” The reason they can is because they are both individual grievances that some man has had with some women at some point in his life. The only thing they have in common is anti-woman sentiment, and thus qualifies as part of the MRA platform.
I do often wonder what an MRA’s perfect woman looks like. It would be very confusing to try to please them. Do get a job? Do I not get a job? Do I just stand very still until it’s time to give a man a blowjob? But not too many blowjobs because then I’m a whore… WHAT DO YOU PEOPLE WANT FROM ME.
I think that sense of being constantly off balance and unsure of what you can do to avoid the next rage-splosion may actually be what they want from us. There’s a reason people call it the abuser’s lobby.
Yep. They want us afraid. They really want Gor in baggy shorts instead of loincloths, even if they’ve never read the damn books.