Today I feel an irresistible urge to post music videos. Above, an awesome interpretation of a rock classic that is sure to get you PUMPED for the weekend.
Below, enjoy the silky voice of Phil Collins.
And here’s Jim Morrison apparently doing his impersonation of the most insufferable man in the universe.
Ok, ok. Here’s that creepshaming manifesto I promised. Or portions of it, anyway. (Like a lot of things written by MRAs, the whole thing is a lot longer than it needs to be.)
The term ‘Creep’ is used every single day to describe people who have done something creepy. A ‘Creep’ is, according to a dictionary, a detestable person, but not according to society today. Today ‘Creep’ is an everyday word that is plastered all over men’s foreheads whenever they do something women don’t like, there is a thousand ways for me to be creepy as a male that I don’t even recognize until it’s too late, or until someone else decides I’m a ‘Creep’. Here is society’s definition of a ‘Creep’:
A man who shows more attention, platonic, romantic or sexual, to a person then they so desire at that time.
[blah blah blah]
I have a little anecdote here for you all. I had a friend with benefits, a girl I was sleeping with every week or two with no romantic strings attached and it was awesome. I found myself loving this woman, not romantically but as a friend I couldn’t have asked for better. Fast forward a few weeks [blah blah blah] The fact that I wasn’t aware of the boyfriend, that the message I sent wasn’t sexual at all and that I was a close personal friend of [oh just fucking shut up]
‘Creep’ is a term that gets abused all over this society; it gets pasted on a man’s forehead by women and scars them with a disfiguring social mark against their name to everyone who is around to hear them say it. Men, you are not a ‘Creep’ for showing a woman attention, you are not a ‘Creep’ for loving kids, or for showing interest in child things. You are a functioning human being. Any women who labels you a ‘Creep’ has problems, they don’t know how to deal with other peoples desires, they don’t respect men’s desires, they don’t realize that men have needs and have wants that don’t line up with their own. Any women who labels a man a ‘Creep’ without a dammed good reason cares only about her own desires, she believes only she can have flexible wants and differing needs and she can’t understand that you are just as human as they are, and that’s a little bit creepy in my honest opinion.
-J.C
Woah. J.C.? The J.C.?
Sorry, Jesus, I didn’t know it was you.
Honestly, I don’t remember you being this whiny the first time around. But whatev. Good to see you.
Naturally, the fellas in the Men’s Rights subreddit think JC’s Creep-i-festo is pretty creeptastic. One of them even left this rather alarming comment:
Yikes. I would go so far as to say that this comment is a bit creepy,
The “opened a conversation” bit is revealing, too. Hello, wannabe PUA!
(The folks in AgainstMensRights are making fun of the Creep-i-festo and making Jesus jokes too.)
WTF is going on with my writing? Sorry for the comma splices, sloppy punctuation. Tired I guess.
Naltia, I get that fairly frequently. Not quite as persistent, but very often I have acquaintances make some pointed comment or another about how I’m so “uptight” because of I’m a feminist and haha, they just said something clearly directed at me attempting to make me angry. I tend to be like “Yep, haha, you’re so funny, can we move on now?” in a rather dry way. If they persist I just nod and roll my eyes. I’m generally apt to point out “Yes, I get it, you want to be a sexist asshole. I’m not sure why, but you clearly think you’re clever so carry on. Hope that works out for you.”
Often times that’s not an option for many people, I know, but if you’re in the company of real friends, it’s usually a good time for me anyway to call them out directly – very directly, in a kind of “Why are you doing this, what are you getting out of it? Are you really so childish that you’re attempting to piss me off on purpose because I have a different opinion than you?” In a really calm manner. It shuts those kinds of people right down, especially if you’re in the company of other people who respect your wishes. Sometimes there are times when it’s not something you can do, for whatever reason it’s not safe, but being calm and trying to “psychoanalyze” (I can’t think of a better word for deconstructing their basic desire to try to rile me up) their behaviours just leaves them feeling embarrassed and I’ve found they back off.
Thanks guys.
I’ve already let one friend go (well, technically he let ME go,) and I’ve been hesitant to lose another. It’s awkward, because the friend I already lost still comes over to my place to hang out with my roommates, so I can never truly be rid of him. Otherwise, it wouldn’t be any serious skin off my back to lose Nate as a friend.
He’s done childish things like this before, so pointing out said behavior wouldn’t work. Kittehserf’s advice sounds good, since my younger brother was there and he’s been a good go-between since this mess started. I haven’t had a chance to talk go him about it yet, but I intend to.
Failing that, I may just confront him about the issue if it happens again. Then, failing that, I’ll cut him loose.
Finding new friends is tough, though. Feminists in Utah County, UT are like needles in a hayloft 😛
Naltia, I have no good suggestions for dealing with your aggressive asshole friend, but you have my sympathy.
Naltia: Another option is to fight fire with fire. It’s not great, but if nothing else, “Yes, dear, the grown-ups are talking,” delivered in a calm, even chipper voice, and with the sort of smile people use when speaking to five-year-olds who can’t really be expected to communicate properly, can be surprisingly effective–especially if that’s the ONLY response he gets out of you, no matter what he says. For one thing, it’ll draw your roommates’ and brothers’ attention to his behavior, in a fashion that keeps his role as provacateur front-and-center.
(Eyebrows go right up into the hairline)
I have a huge soft spot for men who dote on kids. So much so that every man I’ve ever dated in a serious way has been like that, and most of my close male friends too. It’s totally the nurturing thing, and also that people who’re very affectionate with kids often turn out to be very affectionate with their partners and friends too.
But a mutual friendship with a child? Sorry, but it’s not possible for an adult and a child to be friends in the sense that two adults or two kids would be friends. Either you end up with a pseudo parental sort of relationship, or the adult is like a big brother/big sister or aunty/uncle. If an adult tried to frame that relationship as a friendship it would indeed send up some red flags, because what’s their motivation for framing things that way?
Illustrative video time! Part of the reason I have a soft spot for the guy who’s wearing the glasses here (baseball cap in second clip) is because he’s so sweet with kids. These videos make me go “aw!” not “creep alert!”, because there’s nothing creepy about the way he’s interacting with the little girl, it’s just adorable (so cute when the little girl first grabs his hand, and when she doesn’t want to let go of him at the end of the first video, and even cuter when he’s helping her to walk and she walks right to him and hugs him in the second one). If someone watched these videos and found the guys creepy I’d think they were being ridiculous, but the thing is, it’s unlikely that anyone would, because in general people can tell the difference between the behavior of adults who like kids and the behavior of adults who have a creepy, unhealthy interest in kids. It’s really not hard to tell the difference at all.
Follow-up visit
(I can’t find this subbed into English, sorry, but you don’t really need it anyway, it’s just about watching a bunch of guys interact with cute kids.)
So some guy going all “why do people freak out every time I try to make friends with a kid”? Well, I’m going to bet that if this is something that happens to you a lot then there’s something about the way you interact with kids that’s worrying people, and they probably have good reason to be worried. I grew up with a Dad who always ends up with kids climbing all over him at any event there there are kids around, and nobody every tried to “creep shame” him because of it. This is because he’s not a creep.
Also, ow. Get better soon, hellkell’s toes.
The kids are cute, but the young men are absolutely adorable. Are they a boy band? If so, they are marketing themselves very effectively to their teenage girl audience!
“Either you end up with a pseudo parental sort of relationship, or the adult is like a big brother/big sister or aunty/uncle.”
I was initially thinking that I’m friends with my cousins’ kids, but then I got to that and no, you’re right, they see me as an older cousin (though, idk, the oldest set is 15 years younger than me hitting puberty and one of them still wants to be just like me, I guess time will tell if we’ll end up proper friends) And we’re a weird family, the two oldest, one’s mother and the other’s father, lived in our basement at points, and all their parents spent plenty of time playing with me, so I’m kinda returning the favor, ya know?
Never once been called creepy, not even when one of them, as a baby, nearly pantsed me. “Hey [cousin] you need to take your kid back, he’s kicking my pants down” was met with peels of laughter and taking the baby so I could right myself. (Lol, that’s the same one that nearly caused a laughing fit at my grandmother’s funeral by eating his feet)
Hey Falconer, yours still go for toefu? Toevolone? (Now, imagine making these jokes in the front row at a funeral…we’re weird)
Sorry, I’m babbling, my cousins’ have cute kids, I can’t help it.
No, you know the difference between friends and relationships with kids, no matter how friendly? I had a group of friends at one point at Pitt where you’d have needed a whiteboard to map who was // had been in a relationship with whom — it was complicated and setting your ex up with a friend wasn’t that uncommon. Whereas if someone your age tries to date a kid you’re friendly with? Normal people get stabby.
Yep, used to be a boy band – they’re all solo now. And I agree, seeing men be super cuddly and nurturing with kids is great marketing if you’re going for a female audience, which is why the bit I quoted from the angry dude who wants “friends” who’re children was so weird.
To illustrate the difference between awkward or just not really succeeding in catching a woman’s interest and creepy for those guys who keep trying to claim that there’s no difference at all, consider the following anecdotes.
Walking down the street in knee boots, dress, and brightly colored tights. Guy # 1 says “cool tights!”, I say “thanks!” and walk on. Obvious that the guy was interested, I wasn’t, but the approach itself wasn’t creepy and he let me walk away without following me. No problems there.
Walking down the street again later in the same outfit, guy # 2 stops, leers in a really obvious way, and says “did you catch any male fish with those hooks?” while gesturing at the boots. He gets the stink-eye and no other response. He was being creepy.
With, not who’re. I can type good, honest.
Once kids start getting to the mid teens then maybe it’s possible to be friends. But little kids? Not so much, no.
Cassandra, guy #1 reminds me of a young bloke on the train recently. There were some young women (or girls, very late teens?) in their zombie gear; they looked great and everyone was smiling. This young bloke, who looked about twenty, just walked up, said, “You look great, is the Zombie Walk on today?” They answered, he said “Great, have fun!” and walked away.
Totally Not Creepy.
Yeah, compliments are fine, conversations are fine, smiles and friendliness are fine. Leering and openly sexual comments made to a complete stranger that try to frame her as actively attempting to solicit sex? Not fine.
And I find it really, really hard to believe that most of the guys complaining about being called creepy don’t know this.
I’m not convinced they’d be able to figure out how to comment on Reddit if they were that stupid.
LOL and that’s setting the bar pretty low!
lensman
“Still, I would have really appreciated it if she had told me back then how exactly I had offended her and what exactly I did wrong. It would have given me sense of closure and showed me what sort of behavior I was to avoid in the future. Instead, I was left wondering how I messed up, and it ate me up inside for years.”
Not her problem, not her responsibility. It is not anyone’s obligation to let you know what you have done that they want you completely away from them forever.
http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/08/09/an-incomplete-guide-to-not-creeping/
Well, that was interesting. Mads trotting through the kitchen and does a little lift – like this:
_ _ _ _ Λ _ _ _
I have no idea what gave her a fright.
Accepting the fact that you may never get closure on some situations is a becoming-an-adult thing. Everyone has to learn to deal with it, not just men.
Naltia, I hope this helps. I actually love this blog more than any other and I am brokenhearted that she is done, especially now that she has learned about intersectionality and how to has some. Problematic at times (as is almost everything), but honest and brilliant.
http://www.fugitivus.net/2010/07/07/great-now-i-hate-everybody/
Heh – I’m just reading the Scalzi article you linked to, Shaun, and guess who turned up in the comments and got his PUA bullshit redacted? Ian LookI’veGotABigDick Ironwood.
Gods he’s such a try-hard. For a supposedly always-at-it fixture of the porn and PUA worlds, he sure has a lot of time for trolling.
Yeah, I was thinking ‘I have kid friends’ but no, I don’t. I have kids who see me as an older brother type, occasionally as a ‘big friend’ – friends of the kids I know who think I organise the best games.
I’m a kid magnet. I currently have five ‘little siblings’ and I adore them. No one has ever called me creepy in this context, most people think it’s cute or noble or something. I just honestly like spending time with kids especially tweens. Best age.
Hiya, WeeBoy, how are you doing at the moment?
This creep topic is on the forefront now because the Honey Badger idiots did a radio show on it. I scrubbed through the beginning and when TyphoidBlue said women have more of the “instinct of the predator about them because they want to strike and not be seen” and then tried to backpedal and say “not all women just predatory women” is when I rolled my eyes and shut it off.
I don’t see these feMRA dumbasses complain when women are unfairly labled crazy or hysterical. Hell they engage in it all the time with their consistent labeling of women as borderline personality disordered and this constant pathologizing of what they think is “female behaviour”
I’m also sick of hearing BS about how women aren’t seen as creepy. Ever heard of this meme? http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/overly-attached-girlfriend
Oh and look, here she is labeled a creep in the title on a site designed FOR MEN. http://guyism.com/humor/creepy-girl-justin-bieber-girlfriend-parody.html
So I call major BS on this “wahhh why don’t women get labeled creeps” thing.
Even if we for a minute pretend creep means “unnattractive man” how many words are there for unattractive women out there? how much shaming do women get for not being attractive? there is TONS.
The bottom line of this is that MRAs and all these manosphere people hate it when women can assert their boundaries. They hate that women can say no, they hate that women can choose who they are individually attracted to. They hate that women can say when they are feeling uncomfortable. That’s why they take issue with this word, and that’s why they are free to call women fat/crazy/old and all the other plethora of gendered slurs and shaming they throw at women daily online. Its ok for them to make choices about who they are like and to assert their boundaries, but when women do it it’s baaaaaaad. It’s misandry! it’s hypergamy! They want to have choices, but women can’t. That’s what is really creepy to me.