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CDC: MRA claims that “40% of rapists are women” are based on bad math and misuse of our data

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Feminists often complain, with considerable justification, that Men’s Rights Activists try to turn every conversation about women’s issues into a game of “what about the men?” You’re talking about female rape victims — well, what about the male rape victims?

The trouble with this strategy, from the point of view of the Men’s Rights Activists anyway, is that this little “gotcha” is much less of a “gotcha” then they’d like it to be.

In the case of rape, for example, feminists are well aware that men are raped as well: the “Don’t Be That Guy” ad campaign, which sent so many MRAs into hysterics, focused on male victims as well as female ones. The emergency room rape advocate organization that a friend of mine volunteers for  provides advocacy for victims regardless of gender.

So many MRAs have started playing another game: trying to twist the conversation around in order to cast women as the villains. Rape is a bit tough for them here, since the overwhelming majority of rapists are male. So MRAs talk about the alleged epidemic of female false accusers instead. Or they change the topic entirely and make dead baby jokes (see my post yesterday).

Recently, MRAs have tried a new strategy, seizing on data from The National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey, a massive study conducted in 2010 under the aegis of the Centers for Disease Control, to claim that “40% of rapists are women.”

This is a claim repeated by numerous MRAs on numerous websites; see, for example, this post by A Voice for Men’s Typhonblue on the blog GendErratic. Here’s the same claim made into an “infographic” for the Men’s Rights subreddit.

Trouble is, this claim is flat-out false, based on an incorrect understanding of the NISVS data. But you don’t have to take my word for it: the NISVS researchers themselves say the MRA “interpretation” of their data is based on bad math. It’s not just a question of different definitions of rape: the MRA claims are untenable even if you include men who were “made to penetrate” women as victims of rape (as the MRAs do)  rather than as victims of “sexual violence other than rape” (as the NISVS does).

I wrote to the NISVS for clarification of this matter recently, and got back a detailed analysis, straight from the horse’s mouth, of where the MRA arguments went wrong. This is long, and a bit technical, but it’s also pretty definitive, so it’s worth quoting in detail. (I’ve bolded some of the text below for emphasis, and broken some of the larger walls of text into shorter paragraphs.)

It appears that the math used to derive an estimated percentage of female rapists … is flawed.  First, we will summarize the assertion and what we perceive to be the basis for the assertion.

According to the web links, the “40% of rapists were women” was derived from these two steps:

1)      Combining the estimated number of female rape victims with the estimated number of being-made-to-penetrate male victims in the 12 months prior to the survey to conclude that about 50% of the rape or being-made-to-penetrate victims were males;

2)      Multiplying the estimated percentage (79%) of male being-made-to-penetrate victims who reported having had female perpetrators in these victims’ lifetime with the 50% obtained in step 1 to claim that 40% of perpetrators of rape or being-made-to-penetrate were women.

None of these calculations should be used nor can these conclusions be correctly drawn from these calculations.

First the researchers clarify the issue of definition:

To explain, in NISVS we define rape as “any completed or attempted unwanted vaginal (for women), oral, or anal penetration through the use of physical force (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threats to physically harm and includes times when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent.”

We defined sexual violence other than rape to include being made to penetrate someone else, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and non-contact unwanted sexual experiences. Made to penetrate is defined as including “times when the victim was made to, or there was an attempt to make them, sexually penetrate someone without the victim’s consent because the victim was physically forced (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threatened with physical harm, or when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent.”

The difference between “rape” and “being made to penetrate” is that in the definition of rape the victim is penetrated; “made to penetrate” by definition refers to cases where the victim penetrated someone else.

While there are multiple definitions of rape and sexual violence used in the field, CDC, with the help of experts in the field, has developed these specific definitions of rape and other forms of sexual violence (such as made to penetrate, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and non-contact unwanted sexual experiences). We use these definitions to help guide our analytical decisions.

Now the researchers get into the details of the math:

Regarding the specific assertion in question, several aspects of mistreatments of the data and the published estimates occurred in the above derivation:

A.      While the percentage of female rape victims and the percentage of male being-made-to-penetrate victims were inferred from the past 12-month estimates by combining two forms of violence, the percentage of perpetrator by sex was taken from reported estimates for males for lifetime (a misuse of the percentage of male victims who reported only female perpetrators in their lifetime being made to penetrate victimization).  This mismatch of timeframes is incorrect because the past 12-month victimization cannot be stretched to equate with lifetime victimization.  In fact, Table 2.1 and 2.2 of the NISVS 2010 Summary Report clearly report that lifetime rape victimization of females (estimated at 21,840,000) is about 4 times the number of lifetime being made-to-penetrate of males (estimated at 5,451,000).

B.      An arithmetic confusion appears when multiplying the two percentages together to conclude that the product is a percentage of all the “rapists”, an undefined perpetrator population.  Multiplying the percentage of male victims (as derived in step 1) above) to the percentage of male victims who had female perpetrators cannot give a percentage of perpetrators mathematically because to get a percentage of female rape perpetrators, one must have the total rape perpetrators (the denominator), and the number of female perpetrators of this specific violence (the numerator).  Here, neither the numerator nor the denominator was available.

C.      Data collected and analyzed for the NISVS 2010 have a “one-to-multiple” structure (where the “one” refers to one victim and the “multiple” refers to multiple perpetrators).  While not collected, it is conceivable that any perpetrator could have multiple victims.  These multiplicities hinder any attempt to get a percentage of perpetrators such as the one described in steps 1) and 2), and nullify the reverse calculation for obtaining a percent of perpetrators.

For example, consider an example in which a girl has eight red apples while a boy has two green apples.  Here, 50% of the children are boys and another 50% are girls.  It is not valid to multiply 50% (boy) with 100% (boy’s green apples) to conclude that “50% of all the apples combined are green”.  It is clear that only 20% of all the apples are green (two out of 10 apples) when one combines the red and green apples together.  Part of the mistake in the deriving of the “50%” stems from a negligence to take into account the inherent multiplicity: a child can have multiple apples (just as a victim can have multiple perpetrators).

D.      As the study population is U.S. adults in non-institutional settings, the sample was designed to be representative of the study population, not the perpetrator population (therefore no sampling or weighting is done for the undefined universe of perpetrators).  Hence, while the data can be analyzed to make statistical inferences about the victimization of U.S. adults residing in non-institutional settings, the NISVS data are incapable of lending support to any national estimates of the perpetrator population, let alone estimates of perpetrators of a specific form of violence (say, rape or being-made-to-penetrate).

E.      Combining the estimated past 12-month female rape victims with the estimated past 12-month being-made-to-penetrate male victims cannot give an accurate number of all victims who were either raped or being-made-to-penetrate, even if this combination is consistent with CDC’s definition.

Besides a disagreement with the definitions of the various forms of violence given in the NISVS 2010 Summary Report, this approach of combining the 12-month estimated number of female rape victims with the 12-month estimated number of male victims misses victims in the cells where reliable estimates were not reported due to small cell counts failing to meet statistical reliability criteria.  For any combined form of violence, the correct analytical approach for obtaining a national estimate is to start at the raw data level of analysis, if such a creation of a combined construct is established.

So you’re going to need to go back to the drawing board, MRAs.

What is especially distressing here is that the NISVS data could have been the starting point for a serious discussion of male victims of sexual assault by women, which is a real and often overlooked issue. Unfortunately, MRAs have once again poisoned the well by misusing data in an attempt to exaggerate the purported villainy of women and score cheap rhetorical points.

NOTE: A regular in the AgainstMensRights subreddit approached the NISVS researchers with this same question some months back. Unfortunately, the statement they got back from the NISVS contained an incorrect number. The statement I’m quoting here corrects this number and adds more context.

I can provide contact info for the NISVS representative who got back to me on this to any serious (non-troll) person who requests it.

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Bee
Bee
11 years ago

David, do you mind sharing what organization your friend volunteers for? Do they operate on a national level? I’ve been hoping to start volunteering some of my time to help victims of sexual violence. I’ve contacted a local rape crisis center but they require all of their volunteers to go through some training sessions I’m not sure will fit with my work schedule, so I’d like to look into other options if possible. Also, I’m a little unsure about being a hotline volunteer (I’m always afraid I’ll say the wrong things and make someone feel worse), but I wonder what other ways I could help. If anyone else has any ideas on that front I’d love to hear them. Thank you.

Grumpycatisagirl, I volunteer as a rape victim advocate; all the organizations in my area are local and range from the county DA to DV and rape nonprofits. Basically, in my experience, you definitely need the training to be able to be helpful when working with victims! If you’re nervous about saying the wrong things to hotline callers, you’ll feel similarly anxious about dealing with rape victims getting their rape kit performed and talking to police, etc. The training (if it’s anything like the training I got) will definitely help you through this and figure out what to say and what not to say. So it’s really worth it, if you have time for it.

There are some interesting things going on in transformative justice and restorative justice circles that might fit in with what you want to do and have a different training schedule than more established rape victim advocacy organizations. You can google to see if there are any in your area.

If you absolutely don’t have time for training, maybe you can volunteer in an administrative or fundraising capacity? Or sometimes hospitals will need extra clothing for victims who come in wearing evidence and need something to wear home — maybe you could ask hospitals and/or the rape advocacy groups in your area if there’s anything like that that you could help out with?

cloudiah
11 years ago

I don’t think I weighed in… I also disagreed with David but will note for the record that it’s really a semantic difference. We both agree that being made to penetrate is “sexual violence and needs to be taken seriously”– only I call it rape and he does not. It’s not an unimportant difference, but our positions are a lot closer than mine and Paul “I will never convict anyone of rape no matter how strong the evidence” Elam. You might want to choose your battles, dude.

hannasoumaki
11 years ago

@kittehserf, hi. i get that and its very nice that argenti offered to break down their analysis of the stats (i am currently scrutinizing their comments right now, in vain), but you’ll find my mathematical skills are abysmal and i am constantly turning to others for help.
can anyone here recommend a good site or book i can use – like a beginner’s guide on mathematical statistics?
@mr. futrelle, do you mind explaining in depth why you don’t technically consider it rape, though? whether you decide to or not, i will still agree to just disagree.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
11 years ago

It’s not like there aren’t people who really do oppose the idea that women can rape men and who’re actively trying to make the law reflect that view. Why don’t MRAs focus on that? It’s an issue that could do with some work.

For example, I looked up the wiki on marital rape laws recently and Thailand finally passed a marital rape law in 2007, and a prominent (male) academic there described attempts to include male victims in the law as “abnormal logic”.

It’s not feminists who’re the enemy on this issue, it’s traditionalists and social conservatives.

kittehserf
11 years ago

@hannasoumaki, ha, I got boggled even with Argenti’s breakdown, so you’re way ahead of me. 🙂

@cloudiah – you pretty much summed up my feelings, there; it’s more about semantics, but I’d call it rape, too.

Also when I take over the universe you will find your money suddenly looks like this.

Of course that will only be short-term, to soften up the hoomins for the ultimate takeover by the Furrinati.

grumpycatisagirl
grumpycatisagirl
11 years ago

Thanks for the information and suggestions, Bee. And also thank you for your work on behalf of victims.

Shaun DarthBatman Day
11 years ago

I also disagreed with Dave. I understand his reason, but I disagree with his interpretation of what does or does not constitute rape in this specific case.

Bee
Bee
11 years ago

I actually think it makes sense to categorize made-to-penetrate as a form of sexual violence other than rape, and to use the term rape for sexual acts in which the victim is penetrated. In any case, it is sexual violence and needs to be taken seriously.

So, if it’s just a matter of me thinking about shit in my own head, I definitely think that men being forced to penetrate a woman equals rape. No doubt in my mind.

However, if I’m thinking about why NISVS (or David) may have wanted to separate penetration-rape from penetrative/sexual violence, I start thinking about how criminal laws are written in the 50 states surveyed by NISVS and how rape is defined by other organizations that survey and compile this information. For example, the FBI only in 2012 updated its definition of rape to include rape by envelopment (although some sticklers claim the current definition still does not include it). Which means that NISVS would not have had these more inclusive figures for its 2010 survey.

Shaun DarthBatman Day
11 years ago

Anyway, goodnight all. Need sleep. Long fight with a friends family to continue tomorrow and all.

Long story short, she’s suffering from mental illness and they are being complete asshats about it and being the opposite of supportive to her and anytime someone is supportive they attack and it’s a huge pile of blarg. I think they might adopt me soon! (Where is the sarcasm font when I need it?)

Bee
Bee
11 years ago

@grumpycat: Oh yeah, I totally forgot to say thanks for wanting to help with rape victims! The group I volunteer with is constantly looking for help, so I’m sure that whatever you’re able to give would be greatly appreciated!

kittehserf
11 years ago

Bee – that’s an excellent breakdown of why those figures and definitions were used, thank you for that.

Shaun – big hugs for you and your friend, that sounds like a double-dose of shittastic. 🙁

New king&kitty pic!

Brooked
Brooked
11 years ago

I see that several of you have gone to “Human Stupidity: Irrationality, Self Deception” website.
I’m worried about what I unleashed when I opened this gateway to stupidity. I’ve seen enough horror movies to know that this might not end well.

@Athywren – The best cursed fate ever.

One hundred and ten points! An astonishing total. You’ve earned yourself a herd of sentient legos to follow you around wherever you go. Never again can you walk barefoot, for you will certainly step on them. Forever.

@Cloudiah and others

You’re all being too harsh about the doberman joke post. I’ve found that a joke is only enhanced by a follow-up PowerPoint presentation that explains, in depth, why it’s funny. Hilarity ensues after about the seventh slide.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
11 years ago

hannasoumaki — I was mentally combining tables 2.1 and 2.2 since it’s easier to just deal with the two relevant categories — rape and made to penetrate — and gender. As for a good intro to stats book…unfortunately I haven’t any recommendations, though I’m always up for explaining Teh Maths.

And you can just call me Argenti 🙂

Blair
Blair
11 years ago

As long as you consider made-to-penetrate victims as “rape” victims, the calculation is as followed:

0.019 * 1270000 = 24.1k women raped by women

0.067 * unknown 12 month rape rate = 0.067 * (1/5) * 1581000 = 21.2k men raped by women, (1/5) is from the made-to-penetrate ratio between lifetime:12-month.

0.792 * 1267000 = 1000k men “raped” by women

1045.3k rapes/”rapes” perpetrated by women

0.981 * 1270000 = 1246k women raped by men

0.933 * unknown 12 month rape rate = 0.933 * (1/5) * 1581000 = 295k men raped by men

0.208 * 1267000 = 264k men “raped” by men

1805k rapes/”rapes” perpetrated by men

So, over the past 12 months (in 2010), 37% of rapes were perpetrated by women.

The only conjecture used was the overly conservative estimate that a fifth of made-to-penetrate victims occurred during the previous 12 months. I believe the rate for women was 3 times higher, vastly increasing lifetime female victims with respect to male victims. The CDC made no attempt to explain the discrepancy in the lifetime:12 month ratios, but it’s irrelevant IMO. I could exclude the estimated 45k rapes perpetrated by women and still come up with close to 37% anyways.

If some MRAs came to a similar conclusion (instead of correctly limiting their conclusion to 12 months, they made a much more general statement involving lifetime rapes) using the wrong methodology as outlined by the CDC, well they are stupid, but the CDC’s critique falls way short at discrediting my methodology and conclusion. Never-mind, that they still consider the majority of male rape victims simply as sexual assault victims. Insulting.

My calculation does not take 50% of rape victims were men, and multiplies it by 79%. In fact, I can’t see anywhere this is done in the MRM. The CDC created a straw man argument as far as I can tell. It is obviously the incorrect method, nonetheless, it still resulted in a relatively accurate figure.

The CDC made no attempt to actually do the calculation for MRAs, because they are literally bickering over a couple percentages. Why go through the trouble of writing that long email debunking a straw man argument, only to conclude with the correct figure that is a few percentages smaller. It’s just a distraction from the fact that they have egregiously excluded the majority of male rape victims from their conclusion.

neuroticbeagle
neuroticbeagle
11 years ago

Let’s see if this works.

[URL=http://memeguy.com/photo/38159/beagles-smarter-than-they-look][IMG]http://memeguy.com/photos/images/beagles-smarter-than-they-look-38159.gif[/IMG][/URL]

kittehserf
11 years ago

Clever beagle! 😀

neuroticbeagle
neuroticbeagle
11 years ago

@kittehs
I like the new avatar. Who is that with Sir? Katie?

kittehserf
11 years ago

Thank ‘ee! Yes, that’s Katiekins the Monster. 🙂

neuroticbeagle
neuroticbeagle
11 years ago

“Katiekins the Monster”

Just in time for Halloween!

kittehserf
11 years ago

LOL and she don’t need no costume! Minions of Basement Cat never do, even when they are pretty tabbies. Teh ebil is there for those who can see.

Okay, we’re off to watch telly – niters!

Wetherby
Wetherby
11 years ago

(Also, you have no idea how weird the assumption that all men would have no problem with other guys at the office seeing their SO naked feels to someone who grew up in the Middle East.)

Back in the days when I was an office drone, I had a picture of my wife on my desk, dressed as a nun (it was from a trip to the legendary Sing-a-long-a-Sound of Music, which remains one of the funniest evenings of my life to this day).

Many months later, I found out that a colleague had got the impression from this that I was an extremely hardcore Catholic, and had consequently been very careful what she said in my presence, lest she cause any offence. Which was really sweet of her, but quite unnecessary.

Tamen
11 years ago

David Futrelle:

I actually think it makes sense to categorize made-to-penetrate as a form of sexual violence other than rape, and to use the term rape for sexual acts in which the victim is penetrated. In any case, it is sexual violence and needs to be taken seriously.

David, a woman decided to put my penis inside her vagina without prior consent while I was asleep. I call and refer to what happened to me as rape. Are you telling me I am mistaken? That I should stop calling that rape?

James Landrith who has courageously publicly spoke about being a male rape survivor on CNN, HuffongtonPost and other places (at great personal cost and attacks from people like this/a> who also don’t think that “rape-by-envelopment” is rape.). Is he mistaken in his self-identification? Should he stop referring to himself as a rape survivor?

Ash
Ash
11 years ago

“Ash, how on earth are you interpreting my saying that made-to-penetrate is “sexual violence and needs to be taken seriously” as the equivalent of “well it isn’t really that bad.”

Obviously I am saying it IS bad. That’s what saying it’s “”sexual violence and needs to be taken seriously” means.

There are a number of other forms of sexual assault that don’t involve the victim being penetrated. They should all be taken seriously as well. But they shouldn’t be classified as rape either.

If you want to disagree with me on this, that’s fine. Indeed, most of the commenters here do disagree with me on this point. But don’t pretend that I said or implied something I didn’t.”

(excuse me just copy pasting with Quotations. I don’t know how to blockquote)

Here’s the problem with comparing MTP as being like those other non penetrative forms of sexual assault. It’s sexual intercourse without consent. To me, and I”m sure to the victims of that crime, it’s as significant as having been raped. When the legal definition treats manual, oral, and anal intercourse as all equally bad, but only if it was by penetration. That’s a major hole to leave out being forced to penetrate as rape as well. Only because it’s someone being forced to insert rather than forced to receive.

You may not have overtly intended to say it’s “less than” but by defending the definition as it stands you’re inadvertently doing so. The legal penalties and the societal perception between the words “rape” and the words “sexual assault” are different. No one brushes them off, but they are a hierarchy both legally and culturally. If you’re going to advocate that they’re both treated seriously then why not just advocate for a definition of rape that is inclusive of all intercourse, whether that’s being forced to penetrate or being forced to be penetrated?

So, I’m asking again, what is your justification and reasoning behind classifying it as a lesser offense?

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
11 years ago

I just went through the whole thread to see what Ash is on about and I still don’t get it. Argue all you want that being made to penetrate should be lumped in with rape, but it’s pretty fucking dishonest to pretend that he’s classified MTP as a “lesser offense.” The leading question with which you end your latest comment is the cherry on top.

When did you stop beating your wife, Ash?

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