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CDC: MRA claims that “40% of rapists are women” are based on bad math and misuse of our data

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Feminists often complain, with considerable justification, that Men’s Rights Activists try to turn every conversation about women’s issues into a game of “what about the men?” You’re talking about female rape victims — well, what about the male rape victims?

The trouble with this strategy, from the point of view of the Men’s Rights Activists anyway, is that this little “gotcha” is much less of a “gotcha” then they’d like it to be.

In the case of rape, for example, feminists are well aware that men are raped as well: the “Don’t Be That Guy” ad campaign, which sent so many MRAs into hysterics, focused on male victims as well as female ones. The emergency room rape advocate organization that a friend of mine volunteers for  provides advocacy for victims regardless of gender.

So many MRAs have started playing another game: trying to twist the conversation around in order to cast women as the villains. Rape is a bit tough for them here, since the overwhelming majority of rapists are male. So MRAs talk about the alleged epidemic of female false accusers instead. Or they change the topic entirely and make dead baby jokes (see my post yesterday).

Recently, MRAs have tried a new strategy, seizing on data from The National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey, a massive study conducted in 2010 under the aegis of the Centers for Disease Control, to claim that “40% of rapists are women.”

This is a claim repeated by numerous MRAs on numerous websites; see, for example, this post by A Voice for Men’s Typhonblue on the blog GendErratic. Here’s the same claim made into an “infographic” for the Men’s Rights subreddit.

Trouble is, this claim is flat-out false, based on an incorrect understanding of the NISVS data. But you don’t have to take my word for it: the NISVS researchers themselves say the MRA “interpretation” of their data is based on bad math. It’s not just a question of different definitions of rape: the MRA claims are untenable even if you include men who were “made to penetrate” women as victims of rape (as the MRAs do)  rather than as victims of “sexual violence other than rape” (as the NISVS does).

I wrote to the NISVS for clarification of this matter recently, and got back a detailed analysis, straight from the horse’s mouth, of where the MRA arguments went wrong. This is long, and a bit technical, but it’s also pretty definitive, so it’s worth quoting in detail. (I’ve bolded some of the text below for emphasis, and broken some of the larger walls of text into shorter paragraphs.)

It appears that the math used to derive an estimated percentage of female rapists … is flawed.  First, we will summarize the assertion and what we perceive to be the basis for the assertion.

According to the web links, the “40% of rapists were women” was derived from these two steps:

1)      Combining the estimated number of female rape victims with the estimated number of being-made-to-penetrate male victims in the 12 months prior to the survey to conclude that about 50% of the rape or being-made-to-penetrate victims were males;

2)      Multiplying the estimated percentage (79%) of male being-made-to-penetrate victims who reported having had female perpetrators in these victims’ lifetime with the 50% obtained in step 1 to claim that 40% of perpetrators of rape or being-made-to-penetrate were women.

None of these calculations should be used nor can these conclusions be correctly drawn from these calculations.

First the researchers clarify the issue of definition:

To explain, in NISVS we define rape as “any completed or attempted unwanted vaginal (for women), oral, or anal penetration through the use of physical force (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threats to physically harm and includes times when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent.”

We defined sexual violence other than rape to include being made to penetrate someone else, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and non-contact unwanted sexual experiences. Made to penetrate is defined as including “times when the victim was made to, or there was an attempt to make them, sexually penetrate someone without the victim’s consent because the victim was physically forced (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threatened with physical harm, or when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent.”

The difference between “rape” and “being made to penetrate” is that in the definition of rape the victim is penetrated; “made to penetrate” by definition refers to cases where the victim penetrated someone else.

While there are multiple definitions of rape and sexual violence used in the field, CDC, with the help of experts in the field, has developed these specific definitions of rape and other forms of sexual violence (such as made to penetrate, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and non-contact unwanted sexual experiences). We use these definitions to help guide our analytical decisions.

Now the researchers get into the details of the math:

Regarding the specific assertion in question, several aspects of mistreatments of the data and the published estimates occurred in the above derivation:

A.      While the percentage of female rape victims and the percentage of male being-made-to-penetrate victims were inferred from the past 12-month estimates by combining two forms of violence, the percentage of perpetrator by sex was taken from reported estimates for males for lifetime (a misuse of the percentage of male victims who reported only female perpetrators in their lifetime being made to penetrate victimization).  This mismatch of timeframes is incorrect because the past 12-month victimization cannot be stretched to equate with lifetime victimization.  In fact, Table 2.1 and 2.2 of the NISVS 2010 Summary Report clearly report that lifetime rape victimization of females (estimated at 21,840,000) is about 4 times the number of lifetime being made-to-penetrate of males (estimated at 5,451,000).

B.      An arithmetic confusion appears when multiplying the two percentages together to conclude that the product is a percentage of all the “rapists”, an undefined perpetrator population.  Multiplying the percentage of male victims (as derived in step 1) above) to the percentage of male victims who had female perpetrators cannot give a percentage of perpetrators mathematically because to get a percentage of female rape perpetrators, one must have the total rape perpetrators (the denominator), and the number of female perpetrators of this specific violence (the numerator).  Here, neither the numerator nor the denominator was available.

C.      Data collected and analyzed for the NISVS 2010 have a “one-to-multiple” structure (where the “one” refers to one victim and the “multiple” refers to multiple perpetrators).  While not collected, it is conceivable that any perpetrator could have multiple victims.  These multiplicities hinder any attempt to get a percentage of perpetrators such as the one described in steps 1) and 2), and nullify the reverse calculation for obtaining a percent of perpetrators.

For example, consider an example in which a girl has eight red apples while a boy has two green apples.  Here, 50% of the children are boys and another 50% are girls.  It is not valid to multiply 50% (boy) with 100% (boy’s green apples) to conclude that “50% of all the apples combined are green”.  It is clear that only 20% of all the apples are green (two out of 10 apples) when one combines the red and green apples together.  Part of the mistake in the deriving of the “50%” stems from a negligence to take into account the inherent multiplicity: a child can have multiple apples (just as a victim can have multiple perpetrators).

D.      As the study population is U.S. adults in non-institutional settings, the sample was designed to be representative of the study population, not the perpetrator population (therefore no sampling or weighting is done for the undefined universe of perpetrators).  Hence, while the data can be analyzed to make statistical inferences about the victimization of U.S. adults residing in non-institutional settings, the NISVS data are incapable of lending support to any national estimates of the perpetrator population, let alone estimates of perpetrators of a specific form of violence (say, rape or being-made-to-penetrate).

E.      Combining the estimated past 12-month female rape victims with the estimated past 12-month being-made-to-penetrate male victims cannot give an accurate number of all victims who were either raped or being-made-to-penetrate, even if this combination is consistent with CDC’s definition.

Besides a disagreement with the definitions of the various forms of violence given in the NISVS 2010 Summary Report, this approach of combining the 12-month estimated number of female rape victims with the 12-month estimated number of male victims misses victims in the cells where reliable estimates were not reported due to small cell counts failing to meet statistical reliability criteria.  For any combined form of violence, the correct analytical approach for obtaining a national estimate is to start at the raw data level of analysis, if such a creation of a combined construct is established.

So you’re going to need to go back to the drawing board, MRAs.

What is especially distressing here is that the NISVS data could have been the starting point for a serious discussion of male victims of sexual assault by women, which is a real and often overlooked issue. Unfortunately, MRAs have once again poisoned the well by misusing data in an attempt to exaggerate the purported villainy of women and score cheap rhetorical points.

NOTE: A regular in the AgainstMensRights subreddit approached the NISVS researchers with this same question some months back. Unfortunately, the statement they got back from the NISVS contained an incorrect number. The statement I’m quoting here corrects this number and adds more context.

I can provide contact info for the NISVS representative who got back to me on this to any serious (non-troll) person who requests it.

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DonB
DonB
10 years ago

I’m baffled.

In your first paragraph, you assert that only rape of women should be addressed and that feminists are justified in ignoring male rape victims.

Then you try to save face by saying “What is especially distressing here is that the NISVS data could have been the starting point for a serious discussion of male victims of sexual assault by women, which is a real and often overlooked issue.”

Yet you want it overlooked.

Nice try.

kittehserf
10 years ago

Having just re-read the first paragraph (what IS it with the necro trolls on this thread?) I’d say yeah, he must be saying he can’t read.

pallygirl
pallygirl
10 years ago

Maybe one troll prevention technique would be to lock threads after a particular time. This seems to be a particular troll tactic: necro old threads. I have not noticed anyone else doing it.

kittehserf
10 years ago

We have had some fun with necro trolls on occasion – didn’t Mikey (that’s DIRECTLY ON THE BEACH Mikey, not “Read my blog!” Mikey) turn up as a necro-troll originally?

pecunium
10 years ago

Yeah, he can’t read.

Lea
Lea
10 years ago

Don,
You’re either bad at reading or bad at lying.
The words have not disappeared from the blog. We can still read them. Lying about the contents of the blog really isn’t the smartest idea anyone ever had. (and yet, it’s a popular tactic with MRAssholes. I wonder why that is?)
Please either take the time to learn better reading skills or take some sort of character building class to help you with you inability to tell the truth. You’ll be happier and so will the people who have to interact with you.

weirwoodtreehugger
10 years ago

I’m shocked this thread hasn’t reached 1000 posts yet considering how often it gets necroed.

kittehserf
10 years ago

It’s getting close, though!

sparky
sparky
10 years ago

DonB, what were you reading? Because nowhere in the OP is it stated or implied that feminists should ignore male rape victims.

This thread gets necro’d a lot. I think they despise the fact that a large, well designed study conducted by a respected organization got basically the same numbers as feminist rape researchers. They can call Mary Koss a feminazi with an agenda who inflated the numbers, but that’s harder to do with the CDC. And when they do call the CDC part of some feminists conspiracy they end up looking completely ridiculous.

And they think they have the ultimate “gotcha” with their “40% of women are rapists” and don’t want to let that go. Even though it is an inflated figure based on bad math and ideology. They’re doing exactly what they accuse Koss and feminists researchers of doing.

Irony. A concept that MRAs are apparently completely unfamiliar with.

titianblue
titianblue
10 years ago

But … but … but … if feminists talking about female rape victims refuse to be derailed into talking about the menz instead, they’re ignoring the menz by talking about female victims. In that one conversation! Which is ignoring the menz! And it is unacceptable that the menz should be ignored – in even one conversation! Waaaah! /Don

Z
Z
10 years ago

This thread gets necro’d a lot. I think they despise the fact that a large, well designed study conducted by a respected organization got basically the same numbers as feminist rape researchers. They can call Mary Koss a feminazi with an agenda who inflated the numbers, but that’s harder to do with the CDC. And when they do call the CDC part of some feminists conspiracy they end up looking completely ridiculous.

A slightly more plausible hypothesis is that the thread gets linked as a counter-argument to MRA arguments involving the CDC study. It’s also on the first page of Google results when searching for “CDC rape study”.

A portion of those who click on the link decide to comment for some reason. A lot of people don’t look at timestamps and assume that because they just pointed to a post, it was posted recently. Another common Internet failing not unique to MRAs is not reading past the headline, or poor reading comprehension in general.

hellkell
hellkell
10 years ago

Welcome back my friends to the thread that never ends.

Zap
Zap
10 years ago

Hi, I don’t know if this topic has already been discussed but:

Looking at Table 2.2 of the study it states that in the past year there were 1,267,000 cases of “made to penetrate” incidences against males, but in the ENTIRE lifetime there were 5,451,000 incidences of “made to penetrate”… so that means in the year prior, 20% of ALL “made to penetrate” incidences occurred. Does that make sense? That seems improbable. What happen in that year, that DRASTICALLY drove up this variety of sexual assault against men?

Zap
Zap
10 years ago

Does anyone have any theories?

Howard Bannister
10 years ago

@Zap

There are actually a number of reasons that could drive this. (there’s some speculation back in the thread behind this, if you read it–look especially for anything by Argenti, who is pretty solid with numbers)

But the bottom line is more research would be needed to say definitively.

Curious
Curious
10 years ago

Is it possible to get the contact info? I’m doing a school report on rape and would like to find out some information on the survey, since there would appear to be some large gaps in the report itself.

[also, a possible theory on the reason for the increased incidents in the made-to-penetrate numbers could be the increased awareness of that men //can// be forced into sex by a woman. I have found, at least amongst those I talk to, that the idea that an erection=consent tends to abound as well as the idea that all men always want sex and should consider themselves lucky. A good example of this was the recent UK case here
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2194240/Angelina-Jolie-lookalike-stabs-taxi-driver-refusing-sex-her.html
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/luminita-perijoc-sex-crazed-angelina-jolie-3392576
You also see this attitude repeated on reports about teachers committing statutory rape with male students.

While the rest of that linked infographic has poor maths, the study on male victims not thinking of past abuse as abuse could be a contributor. Sort of like how female victims come to blame themselves because everyone tells them that they’re at fault for their rape, many male victims would be told that they weren’t raped and would come to believe it themselves. Some have even suggested [forgive me for not having the study on hand] that some younger victims claim it was consensual in order to reclaim the sense of control that “real men” “should” have with regards to sex.

Considering the male-rape apologists I know actually are among the most misogynistic people I have the misfortune of knowing I personally think this attitude comes to the “male = sexual subject” “female = sexual object” belief. The idea that a man could be placed in the “feminine” role is somehow construed as an insult to some men’s masculinity and thus the existence of them must be denied. Hence why the idea of a female having sexual agency or even exerting “power” over a man is seen as laughable by them.

I have to ask though, why are so many people in support of separate definitions? It’s forced/non-consensual sex, rape – we don’t call statutory rape against a male minor “statutory made to penetrate”. I’m not trying to be offensive, it simply makes no sense to me. Even taking into account power dynamics it doesn’t really make sense to change the name. If I hit my boyfriend, we wouldn’t call it “made to absorb impact”.[I know, stupid example but yeah]

]

Curious
Curious
10 years ago

Oops, I mean that the increased awareness would lead to more men going “Huh… yeah, that was actually bad and I didn’t want that” – not increased awareness leading to more crimes. Just clarifying.

Another aspect may be the generational gap and how the younger generations are more educated on gender issues and things like rape than the older one was. I would equate the attitude change to be similar in nature to the social movement away from spanking one’s kids – many (that I know) from the generation who were spanked don’t see the fuss around spanking, while later generations tend to view spanking as a bad things. So older victims of “made to penetrate” may not even deem the incidents worth mentioning.

Like, take parties as an example. Alcohol is more freely available and now If a person is intoxicated then they can’t consent – yet both men and women engage in sexual activity with drunk individuals because there isn’t enough awareness on how it’s bad. I can’t even count how many of my friend group have had such encounters and felt violated – it’s not their fault that someone took advantage of their state, but they treat it as though it’s part of the normal course of things. Sometimes it’s even a topic of laughter amongst the group – “Did you //see// that bird he went home with? He’s gonna regret that when he sobers up” “Two vodkas and she’s already in the toilets with some guy – such a lightweight!”

At least in Australia, alcohol is considered to be a necessity at any social get together and not drinking is considered odd. My boyfriend doesn’t drink and he gets a lot of shit about it, but what’s especially weird about is how it’s almost as though you’re supposed to drink and “have sex”. In Western Australia we have mid-year Rotto. It’s an event uni students (and some high school students) go to, usually with a lot of alcohol. My sister’s best friend was raped there – she wasn’t drinking, she was “being responsible”, but just wanted to hang out with her friends. Her rapist was her boyfriend’s best friend who took advantage of the idea that “everyone would be drinking” so it wouldn’t be unusual for a girl to “have sex that she’d regret later”. And that’s exactly what everyone thought – that she got drunk and cheated.

Alcohol… alcohol isn’t to blame. Rapists are to blame and alcohol and date-rape drugs and force and coercion are just some tools that they use. They can figure out to use whatever tools they want – basically rapists are assholes first and foremost.

There is now this worry about being a prude or a “pussy” – some stories I’ve read from male victims almost sound like their female rapist thought they were doing them a favour by raping them. There is this stupid attitude that guys want sex all the time and that not having sex is some sort of social impediment that must be rectified in order to let them “level up” almost.

IDEALLY we should be able to drink and not worry about some asshole raping us. IDEALLY we should be able to hang out with friends who drink and not worry about some asshole raping us. IDEALLY we shouldn’t have to worry about some asshole raping us period. That goes for everyone.

But I’ve gone on a tangent. >_>

Another possible thing may be how not getting a man’s consent is not only played for laughs but also sexualized to an extent in recent decades. Take a quick look around the internet and you get a lot of sites [more than one of them written by some ‘alpha male’. Other by Cosmo] telling women to be sexy for their man and do things like wake him up with a blow-job or stick a finger in his anus during sex – all without asking. “He’ll love it!” they guarantee. I can say that at least in WA, the latter //is// legally digital rape, but that aside it sort of hits two effects of sexism – that women should base their sexuality around pleasing men and that men implicitly consent to all sex.

sparky
sparky
10 years ago

Wow. Just had to necro this thread, eh, Graeme Evans?

And no, that is not the takeaway. The takeaway is that you cannot draw conclusions about perpetrators from a study that focused on victims, and that you cannot combine the yearly data with the lifetime because that’s not how math works. More takeaway: the CDC’s data lines up with what feminists have been saying about rape. And yes, indeed, by spouting that totally bullshit “40% of rapists are women” statistics MRAs are indeed trying to deflect focus away from women victims, they are indeed lying about the stats, and they do indeed claim that rape is a lie (“false accusations”). They don’t care about male victims. They don’t care about helping male victims.

You could also check out the multiple, multiple, multiple times these things have been addressed in this thread.

Will this thread see stay dead?

hellkell
hellkell
10 years ago

Hey Graeme, stop necro’ing threads. Save that for when you have an original thought.

LBT
LBT
10 years ago

RE: Graeme Evans

You really have a boner for resurrecting dead threads and not reading ANY of the comments before you, don’t you? You aren’t that bright.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
10 years ago

Since Graeme was kind enough to link to his Facebook account I’m tempted to go ask his mum if she knows what her son is up to. I know I’d be embarrassed if he was my kid.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
10 years ago

(I’m assuming she still does his laundry and cooks his dinner, given how useless he seems to be.)

LBT
LBT
10 years ago

You know, cassandrakitty, I feel that our dearest buddy Graeme here is an excellent example of what we were discussing in the other thread, of the risks of actually pulling a, “shake things up and hang the consequences” attitude. You see, Graeme here has apparently done just that, not realizing how stupid he’s being.

If he’s lucky, and we are merciful, his consequences will be mild and he’ll just get mocked three ways from Sunday.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
10 years ago

I could friend him and then slowly reveal the true horror of his online activities to his friends and family, but luckily for him I’m a. a better person than he is and b. too lazy.