Feminists often complain, with considerable justification, that Men’s Rights Activists try to turn every conversation about women’s issues into a game of “what about the men?” You’re talking about female rape victims — well, what about the male rape victims?
The trouble with this strategy, from the point of view of the Men’s Rights Activists anyway, is that this little “gotcha” is much less of a “gotcha” then they’d like it to be.
In the case of rape, for example, feminists are well aware that men are raped as well: the “Don’t Be That Guy” ad campaign, which sent so many MRAs into hysterics, focused on male victims as well as female ones. The emergency room rape advocate organization that a friend of mine volunteers for provides advocacy for victims regardless of gender.
So many MRAs have started playing another game: trying to twist the conversation around in order to cast women as the villains. Rape is a bit tough for them here, since the overwhelming majority of rapists are male. So MRAs talk about the alleged epidemic of female false accusers instead. Or they change the topic entirely and make dead baby jokes (see my post yesterday).
Recently, MRAs have tried a new strategy, seizing on data from The National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey, a massive study conducted in 2010 under the aegis of the Centers for Disease Control, to claim that “40% of rapists are women.”
This is a claim repeated by numerous MRAs on numerous websites; see, for example, this post by A Voice for Men’s Typhonblue on the blog GendErratic. Here’s the same claim made into an “infographic” for the Men’s Rights subreddit.
Trouble is, this claim is flat-out false, based on an incorrect understanding of the NISVS data. But you don’t have to take my word for it: the NISVS researchers themselves say the MRA “interpretation” of their data is based on bad math. It’s not just a question of different definitions of rape: the MRA claims are untenable even if you include men who were “made to penetrate” women as victims of rape (as the MRAs do) rather than as victims of “sexual violence other than rape” (as the NISVS does).
I wrote to the NISVS for clarification of this matter recently, and got back a detailed analysis, straight from the horse’s mouth, of where the MRA arguments went wrong. This is long, and a bit technical, but it’s also pretty definitive, so it’s worth quoting in detail. (I’ve bolded some of the text below for emphasis, and broken some of the larger walls of text into shorter paragraphs.)
It appears that the math used to derive an estimated percentage of female rapists … is flawed. First, we will summarize the assertion and what we perceive to be the basis for the assertion.
According to the web links, the “40% of rapists were women” was derived from these two steps:
1) Combining the estimated number of female rape victims with the estimated number of being-made-to-penetrate male victims in the 12 months prior to the survey to conclude that about 50% of the rape or being-made-to-penetrate victims were males;
2) Multiplying the estimated percentage (79%) of male being-made-to-penetrate victims who reported having had female perpetrators in these victims’ lifetime with the 50% obtained in step 1 to claim that 40% of perpetrators of rape or being-made-to-penetrate were women.
None of these calculations should be used nor can these conclusions be correctly drawn from these calculations.
First the researchers clarify the issue of definition:
To explain, in NISVS we define rape as “any completed or attempted unwanted vaginal (for women), oral, or anal penetration through the use of physical force (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threats to physically harm and includes times when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent.”
We defined sexual violence other than rape to include being made to penetrate someone else, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and non-contact unwanted sexual experiences. Made to penetrate is defined as including “times when the victim was made to, or there was an attempt to make them, sexually penetrate someone without the victim’s consent because the victim was physically forced (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threatened with physical harm, or when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent.”
The difference between “rape” and “being made to penetrate” is that in the definition of rape the victim is penetrated; “made to penetrate” by definition refers to cases where the victim penetrated someone else.
While there are multiple definitions of rape and sexual violence used in the field, CDC, with the help of experts in the field, has developed these specific definitions of rape and other forms of sexual violence (such as made to penetrate, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and non-contact unwanted sexual experiences). We use these definitions to help guide our analytical decisions.
Now the researchers get into the details of the math:
Regarding the specific assertion in question, several aspects of mistreatments of the data and the published estimates occurred in the above derivation:
A. While the percentage of female rape victims and the percentage of male being-made-to-penetrate victims were inferred from the past 12-month estimates by combining two forms of violence, the percentage of perpetrator by sex was taken from reported estimates for males for lifetime (a misuse of the percentage of male victims who reported only female perpetrators in their lifetime being made to penetrate victimization). This mismatch of timeframes is incorrect because the past 12-month victimization cannot be stretched to equate with lifetime victimization. In fact, Table 2.1 and 2.2 of the NISVS 2010 Summary Report clearly report that lifetime rape victimization of females (estimated at 21,840,000) is about 4 times the number of lifetime being made-to-penetrate of males (estimated at 5,451,000).
B. An arithmetic confusion appears when multiplying the two percentages together to conclude that the product is a percentage of all the “rapists”, an undefined perpetrator population. Multiplying the percentage of male victims (as derived in step 1) above) to the percentage of male victims who had female perpetrators cannot give a percentage of perpetrators mathematically because to get a percentage of female rape perpetrators, one must have the total rape perpetrators (the denominator), and the number of female perpetrators of this specific violence (the numerator). Here, neither the numerator nor the denominator was available.
C. Data collected and analyzed for the NISVS 2010 have a “one-to-multiple” structure (where the “one” refers to one victim and the “multiple” refers to multiple perpetrators). While not collected, it is conceivable that any perpetrator could have multiple victims. These multiplicities hinder any attempt to get a percentage of perpetrators such as the one described in steps 1) and 2), and nullify the reverse calculation for obtaining a percent of perpetrators.
For example, consider an example in which a girl has eight red apples while a boy has two green apples. Here, 50% of the children are boys and another 50% are girls. It is not valid to multiply 50% (boy) with 100% (boy’s green apples) to conclude that “50% of all the apples combined are green”. It is clear that only 20% of all the apples are green (two out of 10 apples) when one combines the red and green apples together. Part of the mistake in the deriving of the “50%” stems from a negligence to take into account the inherent multiplicity: a child can have multiple apples (just as a victim can have multiple perpetrators).
D. As the study population is U.S. adults in non-institutional settings, the sample was designed to be representative of the study population, not the perpetrator population (therefore no sampling or weighting is done for the undefined universe of perpetrators). Hence, while the data can be analyzed to make statistical inferences about the victimization of U.S. adults residing in non-institutional settings, the NISVS data are incapable of lending support to any national estimates of the perpetrator population, let alone estimates of perpetrators of a specific form of violence (say, rape or being-made-to-penetrate).
E. Combining the estimated past 12-month female rape victims with the estimated past 12-month being-made-to-penetrate male victims cannot give an accurate number of all victims who were either raped or being-made-to-penetrate, even if this combination is consistent with CDC’s definition.
Besides a disagreement with the definitions of the various forms of violence given in the NISVS 2010 Summary Report, this approach of combining the 12-month estimated number of female rape victims with the 12-month estimated number of male victims misses victims in the cells where reliable estimates were not reported due to small cell counts failing to meet statistical reliability criteria. For any combined form of violence, the correct analytical approach for obtaining a national estimate is to start at the raw data level of analysis, if such a creation of a combined construct is established.
So you’re going to need to go back to the drawing board, MRAs.
What is especially distressing here is that the NISVS data could have been the starting point for a serious discussion of male victims of sexual assault by women, which is a real and often overlooked issue. Unfortunately, MRAs have once again poisoned the well by misusing data in an attempt to exaggerate the purported villainy of women and score cheap rhetorical points.
NOTE: A regular in the AgainstMensRights subreddit approached the NISVS researchers with this same question some months back. Unfortunately, the statement they got back from the NISVS contained an incorrect number. The statement I’m quoting here corrects this number and adds more context.
I can provide contact info for the NISVS representative who got back to me on this to any serious (non-troll) person who requests it.
zilla, I’ve tried to write my reply to you about four times, but I think I’m in above my paygrade here since I’ve never been raped. I can’t seem to find a way to say what I want to say about boundaries in general without, as you said so well, trivializing someone else’s experience.
Since I can’t say anything informed, perceptive, or sensitive, I’ll just say that I still agree with most of your premise and feel deeply uncomfortable about a few small things in the rest of it.
And I’ll see myself out. Have a happy Wednesday (or Thursday, if that’s the case).
Wow, I should have refreshed before I posted that.
zilla, please disregard what I said and instead pay attention to Lea’s posts. She said all of the stuff that I was too inarticulate and wishy-washy to voice.
scott1139 is right on, too.
scott1139:
I don’t really care about word issues.
Lea:
Ranking crimes by severity is something that courts have to do in the cases, lawmakers have to do to create fair laws, and so on.
All I am saying is that it somehow doesn’t horrify me equally. Maybe I’m wrong and I should be more horrified of the engulfing than I am, but I don’t and I’d rather not increase the extent to which I am horrified of something.
I, personally, when I face various adversities and get unfairly discriminated against, think of all the people who have it much worse than I do. That seems to help me. Of course, I don’t claim it helps everyone, but as far as I can possibly know, I’d be a wreck if I didn’t think of myself as relatively successful and didn’t consider my misfortunes to be relatively speaking not very major. Thus I’m very wary of the notion of explaining to people how bad they have it. Of course maybe I’m very wrong about how I approach my problems, but I’d like to see studies with regards to effects of perceptions on the outcomes.
@zilla
[CN: rape]
Putting aside the fact that forced-to-penetrate rape is just as traumatizing and harmful for men as forced penetration rape, I’d say that you’re the one trivializing female experience. Rape against women isn’t only in the form of forced penetration. AMAB trans women who are raped are often forced to penetrate, and it would be appalling to say that such women are trivializing rape by saying that their experiences of being forced to penetrate are comparable to forced penetration. Unless somehow you think that most trans women would love to be raped by AFAB trans men via being forced to penetrate because trans women are men, in which case you are probably a TERF and should seriously fuck off.
Also, I’m an AMAB trans woman myself, and if I found someone AFAB trying to envelop my genitals against my will, I wouldn’t sit back and “enjoy” it – I’d probably freak the fuck out and start crying. That kind of rape is just as much of a body and boundary invasion as forced penetration rape despite its slightly different form.
Well, shit, Zilla, this isn’t about you. This is about the people whose experiences you are dismissing or minimising. This is about the real people whose trauma you are hypothetically ranking.(newsflash, Zilla, you’re not in a court of law here having to decide on a the sentence for a crime, you’re on the internet).
Get over yourself, stop defending the indefensible and say you’re sorry. Or fuck off.
I’m worse than a troll today, I just can’t seem to stick my flounce.
zilla, you keep taking your own experiences and preferences, both sexual and personal, and deciding that they’re universal to all of humankind. I was hoping that you just threw that out there in passing on your first reply to me, but now you’re at it again in your reply to Lea.
Please stop doing this.
[CN: rape and mental health shaming]
Seriously, I don’t get to decided that since I find, say, oral sex to be more intimate than PIV, and that it would be a worse violation for me if someone held me down and performed it against my will, that forced reception of cunnilingus would be the worst form of sexual assault.
I also don’t get to say that since I personally am not depressed, that people who have depression are just whiners and should get up and eat breakfast and go for a healthy run, because that’s what I do when I’m sad!
Everyone is different. Everyone’s psyche, boundaries, and bodies are different. Like scott1139 said, it doesn’t trivialize one person’s experience to admit that something else might be traumatic for someone else.
Ally S: Sorry if I in any way annoyed you or created such impression, that was not my intention. I, of course, would not sit back and enjoy it either!
I’m just very vary of equating distinct things.
Of course. But on the other hand, imagine an MRA equating rape with his experience at a party where he got drunk to the point of incoherence (so he couldn’t consent) and some woman then had sex with him, which he says he enjoyed. I’ve seen something along those lines being said a while back.
You aren’t a lawmaker and this is not a court of law. A point, you don’t have one.
And?
You can chose to unpack that shit or not. Just don’t leave shitty little opinion piles on the rug and act like that’s OK. There are victims of rape and sexual assault here and your glib hand waving of their trauma is cruel.
Oh well, that”s just like being raped and having your rape minimized and hey! It’s good for you. So we should all do it!
No.
Stop.
That IS rape, you colossal ass.
“zilla, you keep taking your own experiences and preferences, both sexual and personal, and deciding that they’re universal to all of humankind.”
Sorry if I given that impression. I was originally speaking of a suspicion I have with regards to the motivations behind the claims MRAs make. I’m not deciding that anything is universal to all mankind. I’m just assuming that MRA crowd doesn’t find engulfing particularly troubling at all (due to the combination of it never having happened to them and their attitudes), and so they would equate it with penetration *only* to trivialize penetration. I’m wary of equating things precisely because different people’s experiences differ.
It sure is, but he says he enjoyed it, and he assumes that everyone else would enjoy it too.
Zilla,
You have no excuse for what you are doing. Stop.
MRAs have no empathy for victims, male or female. That doesn’t mean you get to minimize rape trauma or play “imagine a worse rape” on this thread.
A friend of mine was raped by a woman while he was drunk. He may have had an orgasm. Orgasms happen in rape, just like a sneeze happens whether you want to sneeze or not.
You are using MRAs twisted thinking as an excuse for pretending my friend’s rape “wasn;t that bad”.
Other than entertaining yourself, why are you doing this? It’s disgusting. It’s cruel and it’s wrong.
Is Zilla an undercover MRA trying to get the evil feminists to say that raping men isn’t so bad?
Maybe I’m just cynical because of what JB tried the other day.
Dear gods, Zilla, are you still shitting all over this thread and every victim of sexual assault or rape., like ever.
Stop now! Just shut the fuck up.
WWTH,
Sadly, I think there are just people who think this way and they assume others do too.
Lea, you have no clue what my story is, you’re twisting and horribly simplifying anything I say into very horrible directions that I disagree with, pick bits entirely out of context, insulting me repeatedly…
Of course. I know that.
Sorry if you genuinely got that impression. That was not my intention at all. It is very difficult to express oneself clearly enough, and I’m evidently not doing very good job at it and I am sorry about any distress I may have caused to you or anyone else.
Any apology that starts by implying that the person to whom you are apologising may be lying is passive-aggressive bullshit.
And yet when we told you that was what you were doing, you kept right on doing it. Ah, this unintentional mistakes…
Any distress you “may” have caused? You get a thread full of people screaming at you and you think you “may” have caused some distress? Well, thanks for nothing, Zilla.
> And yet when we told you that was what you were doing, you kept right on doing it. Ah, this unintentional mistakes…
I were trying to explain myself. I get frustrated, I act passive aggressive. I’m bad at saying sorry.
I do 100% agree that being forced to penetrate can be worse than being penetrated. Or not be worse. Depending to the individual. That’s why equating things is bad. Equating things that can be distinct is bad math.
I don’t give a fuck what your story is. It won’t make you less wrong. Maybe you’ve internalized victim blaming and it’s effecting how you view your own abuse. Idk. That would be sad for you. I can empathize with how pervasive those attitudes are and how they can get to us all. After all, the same dog that bit you bit me too. Internalized misogyny is a thing that exists. That still won’t give you a free pass to trivialize rape of any kind.
You’re lying about me now. Nothing has been twisted or taken out of context. If your words betray your shitty attitude, that’s on you. If your words do splash damage you did not intend, the damage is still done and you’ve yet to retreat from anything you’ve said. If you put your opinions forward without think through the ugly things they imply, that’s on you. I don’t have to read you charitably after you’ve been told to back it up multiple times.
We insult rape apologists here. It what’s this site is for. It isn’t for you to project your fucked up opinions about rape onto others while we sit quietly by with our hands on our laps.
Piss off until you fix your ability to be honest or feel empathy toward others.
*thinking through*
Crossposted.
Zilla, that’s a better apology.
Care to apologize for calling me a liar?
Lea:
> Care to apologize for calling me a liar?
I got angry. I don’t think you’re a liar.
Let me try to clear it. I don’t think that one person’s experiences are the same as the others. That’s why “equals” sign is dangerous. I very badly (and lopsidedly) presented the case that some men would be relatively un-traumatized by said experience, for varying reasons (including their own misogyny), and thus putting an equal sign in there may be potentially dangerous. And I were too stupid to adequately note, alongside this, that some men may be most severely traumatized by unwanted piv sex.
I know that you guys have a lot of rape apologists coming here, so the chances are pretty good that any new poster is a rape apologist, which is totally understandable in hindsight.
Yes, every instance of rape is distinct, and horrible. All of said instances ARE STILL RAPE.
These “word issues” you “don’t really care about” are the traumatic experiences of real people. That my wording is very general doesn’t mean I think this is merely a semantic issue.
RE: zilla
It sure is, but he says he enjoyed it,
Go fuck yourself with a cactus, asshole.
I’m a male rape survivor. During the time of it happened, I faked enjoyment because IT WOULD END FASTER. And then, because I faked it, I was positive that meant I really HAD liked it, and all the crying afterward was what was really fake.
Cactus. You. Fuck off.
I get frustrated, I act passive aggressive. I’m bad at saying sorry.
YOU DON’T SAY I AM SO SHOCKED.
some men would be relatively un-traumatized by said experience
Oh my god, you stupid cruel child. I know WOMEN who are relatively un-traumatized by their rapes. You know what? They dare not talk about it, because they think that means their rape is not real. It is not your place to judge any rape survivor on how they feel or cope with it. Stop taking other peoples horrorshows and making them all about your academic pondering.
Look at that hole you’re digging. Look how deep you are. STOP.