Feminists often complain, with considerable justification, that Men’s Rights Activists try to turn every conversation about women’s issues into a game of “what about the men?” You’re talking about female rape victims — well, what about the male rape victims?
The trouble with this strategy, from the point of view of the Men’s Rights Activists anyway, is that this little “gotcha” is much less of a “gotcha” then they’d like it to be.
In the case of rape, for example, feminists are well aware that men are raped as well: the “Don’t Be That Guy” ad campaign, which sent so many MRAs into hysterics, focused on male victims as well as female ones. The emergency room rape advocate organization that a friend of mine volunteers for provides advocacy for victims regardless of gender.
So many MRAs have started playing another game: trying to twist the conversation around in order to cast women as the villains. Rape is a bit tough for them here, since the overwhelming majority of rapists are male. So MRAs talk about the alleged epidemic of female false accusers instead. Or they change the topic entirely and make dead baby jokes (see my post yesterday).
Recently, MRAs have tried a new strategy, seizing on data from The National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey, a massive study conducted in 2010 under the aegis of the Centers for Disease Control, to claim that “40% of rapists are women.”
This is a claim repeated by numerous MRAs on numerous websites; see, for example, this post by A Voice for Men’s Typhonblue on the blog GendErratic. Here’s the same claim made into an “infographic” for the Men’s Rights subreddit.
Trouble is, this claim is flat-out false, based on an incorrect understanding of the NISVS data. But you don’t have to take my word for it: the NISVS researchers themselves say the MRA “interpretation” of their data is based on bad math. It’s not just a question of different definitions of rape: the MRA claims are untenable even if you include men who were “made to penetrate” women as victims of rape (as the MRAs do) rather than as victims of “sexual violence other than rape” (as the NISVS does).
I wrote to the NISVS for clarification of this matter recently, and got back a detailed analysis, straight from the horse’s mouth, of where the MRA arguments went wrong. This is long, and a bit technical, but it’s also pretty definitive, so it’s worth quoting in detail. (I’ve bolded some of the text below for emphasis, and broken some of the larger walls of text into shorter paragraphs.)
It appears that the math used to derive an estimated percentage of female rapists … is flawed. First, we will summarize the assertion and what we perceive to be the basis for the assertion.
According to the web links, the “40% of rapists were women” was derived from these two steps:
1) Combining the estimated number of female rape victims with the estimated number of being-made-to-penetrate male victims in the 12 months prior to the survey to conclude that about 50% of the rape or being-made-to-penetrate victims were males;
2) Multiplying the estimated percentage (79%) of male being-made-to-penetrate victims who reported having had female perpetrators in these victims’ lifetime with the 50% obtained in step 1 to claim that 40% of perpetrators of rape or being-made-to-penetrate were women.
None of these calculations should be used nor can these conclusions be correctly drawn from these calculations.
First the researchers clarify the issue of definition:
To explain, in NISVS we define rape as “any completed or attempted unwanted vaginal (for women), oral, or anal penetration through the use of physical force (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threats to physically harm and includes times when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent.”
We defined sexual violence other than rape to include being made to penetrate someone else, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and non-contact unwanted sexual experiences. Made to penetrate is defined as including “times when the victim was made to, or there was an attempt to make them, sexually penetrate someone without the victim’s consent because the victim was physically forced (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threatened with physical harm, or when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent.”
The difference between “rape” and “being made to penetrate” is that in the definition of rape the victim is penetrated; “made to penetrate” by definition refers to cases where the victim penetrated someone else.
While there are multiple definitions of rape and sexual violence used in the field, CDC, with the help of experts in the field, has developed these specific definitions of rape and other forms of sexual violence (such as made to penetrate, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and non-contact unwanted sexual experiences). We use these definitions to help guide our analytical decisions.
Now the researchers get into the details of the math:
Regarding the specific assertion in question, several aspects of mistreatments of the data and the published estimates occurred in the above derivation:
A. While the percentage of female rape victims and the percentage of male being-made-to-penetrate victims were inferred from the past 12-month estimates by combining two forms of violence, the percentage of perpetrator by sex was taken from reported estimates for males for lifetime (a misuse of the percentage of male victims who reported only female perpetrators in their lifetime being made to penetrate victimization). This mismatch of timeframes is incorrect because the past 12-month victimization cannot be stretched to equate with lifetime victimization. In fact, Table 2.1 and 2.2 of the NISVS 2010 Summary Report clearly report that lifetime rape victimization of females (estimated at 21,840,000) is about 4 times the number of lifetime being made-to-penetrate of males (estimated at 5,451,000).
B. An arithmetic confusion appears when multiplying the two percentages together to conclude that the product is a percentage of all the “rapists”, an undefined perpetrator population. Multiplying the percentage of male victims (as derived in step 1) above) to the percentage of male victims who had female perpetrators cannot give a percentage of perpetrators mathematically because to get a percentage of female rape perpetrators, one must have the total rape perpetrators (the denominator), and the number of female perpetrators of this specific violence (the numerator). Here, neither the numerator nor the denominator was available.
C. Data collected and analyzed for the NISVS 2010 have a “one-to-multiple” structure (where the “one” refers to one victim and the “multiple” refers to multiple perpetrators). While not collected, it is conceivable that any perpetrator could have multiple victims. These multiplicities hinder any attempt to get a percentage of perpetrators such as the one described in steps 1) and 2), and nullify the reverse calculation for obtaining a percent of perpetrators.
For example, consider an example in which a girl has eight red apples while a boy has two green apples. Here, 50% of the children are boys and another 50% are girls. It is not valid to multiply 50% (boy) with 100% (boy’s green apples) to conclude that “50% of all the apples combined are green”. It is clear that only 20% of all the apples are green (two out of 10 apples) when one combines the red and green apples together. Part of the mistake in the deriving of the “50%” stems from a negligence to take into account the inherent multiplicity: a child can have multiple apples (just as a victim can have multiple perpetrators).
D. As the study population is U.S. adults in non-institutional settings, the sample was designed to be representative of the study population, not the perpetrator population (therefore no sampling or weighting is done for the undefined universe of perpetrators). Hence, while the data can be analyzed to make statistical inferences about the victimization of U.S. adults residing in non-institutional settings, the NISVS data are incapable of lending support to any national estimates of the perpetrator population, let alone estimates of perpetrators of a specific form of violence (say, rape or being-made-to-penetrate).
E. Combining the estimated past 12-month female rape victims with the estimated past 12-month being-made-to-penetrate male victims cannot give an accurate number of all victims who were either raped or being-made-to-penetrate, even if this combination is consistent with CDC’s definition.
Besides a disagreement with the definitions of the various forms of violence given in the NISVS 2010 Summary Report, this approach of combining the 12-month estimated number of female rape victims with the 12-month estimated number of male victims misses victims in the cells where reliable estimates were not reported due to small cell counts failing to meet statistical reliability criteria. For any combined form of violence, the correct analytical approach for obtaining a national estimate is to start at the raw data level of analysis, if such a creation of a combined construct is established.
So you’re going to need to go back to the drawing board, MRAs.
What is especially distressing here is that the NISVS data could have been the starting point for a serious discussion of male victims of sexual assault by women, which is a real and often overlooked issue. Unfortunately, MRAs have once again poisoned the well by misusing data in an attempt to exaggerate the purported villainy of women and score cheap rhetorical points.
NOTE: A regular in the AgainstMensRights subreddit approached the NISVS researchers with this same question some months back. Unfortunately, the statement they got back from the NISVS contained an incorrect number. The statement I’m quoting here corrects this number and adds more context.
I can provide contact info for the NISVS representative who got back to me on this to any serious (non-troll) person who requests it.
Blarg, so many thoughts! So I know (somebody besides pecunium) that was raped in such manner, the ex-GF in question didn’t realize what she’d done was oh so very wrong until confronted. Thus I see the point of lacking intent to rape, but not caring about consent is definitely still there.
In any case, I’m with hellkell on this one, I’d avoid the term since it’s so loaded. (And don’t ever let me near her btw, you haven’t seen me truly angry, it’s not pretty)
I think, all in all, I’m going to bow out of this aspect of the discussion for at least a while, probably for good. I don’t see much good coming of my continuing, as my feelings on the matter are both complex, and cut close to the bone (for everyone, not just myself).
I suspect I would end up engendering more heat than light, which is to no one’s benefit.
I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to do this.
Hello to everyone here. Thank you sparky, Ally and Argenti for your response on he Hines study; I actually considered asking you about it a few months ago but missed the note about intimate partners so now i feel stupid. Also, I’m sorry to everyone if my past questions have been considered necro-trolling and if the thread is an inconvenient do you suggest other ways that i can continue to ask questions and for advice?
Sorry, I meant “h5n6q’s Hines study.” I’m sorry for bothering once again
hannasoumaki, I think just asking questions here is just fine. After all, they are relevant to the topic of this thread.
You don’t just make shit up because you think it’s probably true.
Oh? Really? Like 1 in 5 women being raped? Or a load of your other bullshit you can’t find good sources for? Or the other things feminists say? Weird. I thought we were supposed to make up everything.
40% of people or are either raped or forced to penetrate are assaulted by women. That’s the accurate conclusion of the data. There’s nothing you can say that will undo that fact. Deal with it, bitch.
Oh dear god, not a troll on the CDC thread again.
Goddammit. Considering that necrotroll’s claims have been neatly countered on the same page that necrotroll commented on. They just don’t read, do they?
Whatever. Here’s a kitty playing with a chihuahua:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=voQOiCT98XA
That is a cute kitty. Kitties are much more interesting than trolls with poor analytical skills and the reading comprehension of ear mites.
All I’m hearing is a vague angry buzzing sound.
I can only hope you know that the CDC study actually says that 1 in 5 women have been raped in their lifetime. Is the CDC study now an unreliable source because it still supports feminist talking points?
Long response: The 40% figure is derived from the sex of perpetrator figure from the lifetime sample of victims. It cannot be applied to the 12-month sample of victims in order to derive the 40% figure as the lifetime sample and the 12-month sample differ in significant ways, one of those being the varying age distribution of victims between the samples. The 12-month sample is not as representative of victims as the lifetime sample is. Moreover, the victimization data from the lifetime sample indicates that women are almost three times more likely to be raped than men. There is no reliable evidence that men are more or less likely to report being raped, and the statistical error is unlikely even if there is such evidence because the CDC’s survey uses questions that are behavior-specific, avoiding loaded terms like “rape”.
Note that this same methodological design was invented by a feminist scholar, Mary P. Koss, and the CDC’s survey uses it to gain information about the sexual victimization of men.
Short response: Read the thread, in which nearly every MRA argument has been addressed, or fuck off for being a disingenuous misogynist like all MRAs are.
David, A question.
Can you point me to the data re the characteristics of men who commit acquaintance rape?
I ask because, try as I might, I can’t seem to find much of anything beyond David Lisak’s work, which is over 10 years old. And it seems to me that if we are looking to drastically reduce rape on campuses it would be useful to understand who the rapists are, how they operate, whether we are talking about “behavior many men commit” or “behavior a few men commit repeatedly,” etc., so action can be informed by the facts.
Thanks in advance, Frank.
Frank, I’m not David, and I apologize if I’m telling you things you’ve already tried, but if you use Google Scholar and search for the Lisak article in question, and then look at the articles that cite it (a link below the article in the search results), you can then refine the search results to limit by date, add in additional keywords, etc. I’m not sure exactly what you’re looking for, but I found some promising results.
If you find one or two articles that look good but are behind a paywall, if I have access I can send them to David who can (if he’s willing) send them to you.
I’ve a nasty suspicion that this is a product of MRA’s assumption that rape (the crime typically prosecuted as rape) is the same thing as waking up to a woman on your morning wood. That forcibly entering other person’s body, violating the most private boundary of all, is equivalent to their happy fantasy.
They just added some concern trolling to restate it so that they can start calling anyone who disagrees with their understanding of rape a “rape apologist”. And nobody wants to be a rape apologists.
Given that MRAs have been known in the past to flood reporting sites with false accusations, I expect a surge of false accusations against women.
Zilla, I’d amend that to “a fantasy of waking up to find a woman on their morning wood”. Like auggzillary said, if it actually happens, it is rape.
Not that MRAs see it that way. Notice how they’re all “hur hur hur lucky him” about actual cases of men or boys being raped by women (remember the thread where they were saying the abused boys in a class were the ones not raped by the “hot” teacher?). Their only *cough* concern *cough* for male rape victims is when they want to end any discussion about men raping women.
(NB I’m talking in binary terms because that’s how the discussions are always framed; non-binary or trans people never figure in MRAs’ faux-concerns for victims.)
Yeah, I agree with auggziliary. Asking before you touch another person’s body is pretty much minimum standard of decency territory.
kittehserf:
Yeah, you put it way better. I think it may be rather dangerous to literally equate the two, though – given that men are usually not very averse to this scenario, or not as averse as to a hypothetical where a woman bigger and stronger and uses a strap-on.
Men commit far more homicide of intimate partner, so any situation, everything else being equal, is inherently very scary for women to find themselves in, scary in a way that men have difficulty relating to.
Zilla, I know you were talking to kittehserf, and I’ll acknowledge that I might be nit-picking, but that makes me too uncomfortable to let slide by. What I quoted above feeds into the “he’s always up for it” part of our mythos around male sexuality. Consent is important for men, too; guys shouldn’t have to feel like they always have to be up for it if they want to be a real man.
Also, I feel like “he’s always up for it” is a close cousin of “male sexual urges are so strong they can’t be controlled.” Which is an idea that I think everyone here agrees needs to die, quickly and painlessly.
FWIW, I agree with the rest of your comments about men having a hard time understanding domestic threats to women. I get where you’re coming from, I just wanted to tweak a little.
The first sentence of my final paragraph should read “FWIW, I agree with the rest of your comments about these men having a hard time understanding domestic threats to women.”
Shouldn’t nitpick everyone else’s posts when I can’t proof my own :b
Flying Mouse: “Consent is important for men, too; guys shouldn’t have to feel like they always have to be up for it if they want to be a real man. ”
Of course. I agree. The issue is that the mythos that you are talking of, in combination with “rape of a woman” = “forced to penetrate one”, very much trivializes female experience.
Other issue is – as a guy, the “bigger stronger woman with a strap on” eeks me out a lot more than “forced to penetrate” does. I don’t think it’s all because of the mythos – one forcibly violates insides of my body, other does not. I may be making an invalid generalization but I think it is fairly common among people of both sexes to find something that intrudes into their body to be more scary.
So if I were to put the equals sign between forcible penetration and forced to penetrate, I would, to the best of my knowledge, be lying.
(There’s the other issue that the object used for penetration may be a dildo, in which case “forced to penetrate” seems definitely distinct from “forcibly penetrated”.)
(There’s the other issue that the object used for penetration may be a dildo, in which case “forced to penetrate” seems definitely distinct from “forcibly penetrated”.)
i.e. in the sense that being forced to please someone with a dildo doesn’t seem nearly as bad as being forcibly penetrated with a dildo, assuming everything else is equal.
Also, regarding surveys. When asking poorly worded questions about coercion one can get all sorts of false positives for things that have nothing to do with rape. Such as women asking for foreplay and men feeling ‘blackmailed’ with the promise of sex.
zilla,
Why do you see penetration as more traumatic in rape? Think that through.
I think there is alot of sexism to unpack about that assumption. Instead of “forced to penetrate”, one could just as easily say that a man raped via piv nonconsensual sex is “engulfed” or “swallowed” by another person’s body. How is that not horrifying?
The idea that penetration = aggression and that the person being penetrated is passive in preventative sex is rooted in sexism.
The idea that “surprise sex” is a treat for men, but rape for women rooted in that same sexism.
Please do not minimize men’s trauma at being victims of any sort of sexual assault. Maybe you aren;t aware of this, but it is common for survivors of sexual violence to think of themselves as “not having it bad enough”. They sometimes think, “It could always be worse, right? What do I have to be upset about? I’m not as worthy of empathy as other kinds of victims”. It can compound the trauma of abuse. Please stop contributing to that way of thinking. It isn’t right.
Fuck you and stop!
Speculating and ranking people’s trauma like it is a score on a video game is bullshit asshole behavior.
@zilla
The important point is that ALL non-consensual sex is rape. Giving the label ‘rape’ to each instance of it does not minimize any particular instance or set of instances.