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CDC: MRA claims that “40% of rapists are women” are based on bad math and misuse of our data

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Feminists often complain, with considerable justification, that Men’s Rights Activists try to turn every conversation about women’s issues into a game of “what about the men?” You’re talking about female rape victims — well, what about the male rape victims?

The trouble with this strategy, from the point of view of the Men’s Rights Activists anyway, is that this little “gotcha” is much less of a “gotcha” then they’d like it to be.

In the case of rape, for example, feminists are well aware that men are raped as well: the “Don’t Be That Guy” ad campaign, which sent so many MRAs into hysterics, focused on male victims as well as female ones. The emergency room rape advocate organization that a friend of mine volunteers for  provides advocacy for victims regardless of gender.

So many MRAs have started playing another game: trying to twist the conversation around in order to cast women as the villains. Rape is a bit tough for them here, since the overwhelming majority of rapists are male. So MRAs talk about the alleged epidemic of female false accusers instead. Or they change the topic entirely and make dead baby jokes (see my post yesterday).

Recently, MRAs have tried a new strategy, seizing on data from The National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey, a massive study conducted in 2010 under the aegis of the Centers for Disease Control, to claim that “40% of rapists are women.”

This is a claim repeated by numerous MRAs on numerous websites; see, for example, this post by A Voice for Men’s Typhonblue on the blog GendErratic. Here’s the same claim made into an “infographic” for the Men’s Rights subreddit.

Trouble is, this claim is flat-out false, based on an incorrect understanding of the NISVS data. But you don’t have to take my word for it: the NISVS researchers themselves say the MRA “interpretation” of their data is based on bad math. It’s not just a question of different definitions of rape: the MRA claims are untenable even if you include men who were “made to penetrate” women as victims of rape (as the MRAs do)  rather than as victims of “sexual violence other than rape” (as the NISVS does).

I wrote to the NISVS for clarification of this matter recently, and got back a detailed analysis, straight from the horse’s mouth, of where the MRA arguments went wrong. This is long, and a bit technical, but it’s also pretty definitive, so it’s worth quoting in detail. (I’ve bolded some of the text below for emphasis, and broken some of the larger walls of text into shorter paragraphs.)

It appears that the math used to derive an estimated percentage of female rapists … is flawed.  First, we will summarize the assertion and what we perceive to be the basis for the assertion.

According to the web links, the “40% of rapists were women” was derived from these two steps:

1)      Combining the estimated number of female rape victims with the estimated number of being-made-to-penetrate male victims in the 12 months prior to the survey to conclude that about 50% of the rape or being-made-to-penetrate victims were males;

2)      Multiplying the estimated percentage (79%) of male being-made-to-penetrate victims who reported having had female perpetrators in these victims’ lifetime with the 50% obtained in step 1 to claim that 40% of perpetrators of rape or being-made-to-penetrate were women.

None of these calculations should be used nor can these conclusions be correctly drawn from these calculations.

First the researchers clarify the issue of definition:

To explain, in NISVS we define rape as “any completed or attempted unwanted vaginal (for women), oral, or anal penetration through the use of physical force (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threats to physically harm and includes times when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent.”

We defined sexual violence other than rape to include being made to penetrate someone else, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and non-contact unwanted sexual experiences. Made to penetrate is defined as including “times when the victim was made to, or there was an attempt to make them, sexually penetrate someone without the victim’s consent because the victim was physically forced (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threatened with physical harm, or when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent.”

The difference between “rape” and “being made to penetrate” is that in the definition of rape the victim is penetrated; “made to penetrate” by definition refers to cases where the victim penetrated someone else.

While there are multiple definitions of rape and sexual violence used in the field, CDC, with the help of experts in the field, has developed these specific definitions of rape and other forms of sexual violence (such as made to penetrate, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and non-contact unwanted sexual experiences). We use these definitions to help guide our analytical decisions.

Now the researchers get into the details of the math:

Regarding the specific assertion in question, several aspects of mistreatments of the data and the published estimates occurred in the above derivation:

A.      While the percentage of female rape victims and the percentage of male being-made-to-penetrate victims were inferred from the past 12-month estimates by combining two forms of violence, the percentage of perpetrator by sex was taken from reported estimates for males for lifetime (a misuse of the percentage of male victims who reported only female perpetrators in their lifetime being made to penetrate victimization).  This mismatch of timeframes is incorrect because the past 12-month victimization cannot be stretched to equate with lifetime victimization.  In fact, Table 2.1 and 2.2 of the NISVS 2010 Summary Report clearly report that lifetime rape victimization of females (estimated at 21,840,000) is about 4 times the number of lifetime being made-to-penetrate of males (estimated at 5,451,000).

B.      An arithmetic confusion appears when multiplying the two percentages together to conclude that the product is a percentage of all the “rapists”, an undefined perpetrator population.  Multiplying the percentage of male victims (as derived in step 1) above) to the percentage of male victims who had female perpetrators cannot give a percentage of perpetrators mathematically because to get a percentage of female rape perpetrators, one must have the total rape perpetrators (the denominator), and the number of female perpetrators of this specific violence (the numerator).  Here, neither the numerator nor the denominator was available.

C.      Data collected and analyzed for the NISVS 2010 have a “one-to-multiple” structure (where the “one” refers to one victim and the “multiple” refers to multiple perpetrators).  While not collected, it is conceivable that any perpetrator could have multiple victims.  These multiplicities hinder any attempt to get a percentage of perpetrators such as the one described in steps 1) and 2), and nullify the reverse calculation for obtaining a percent of perpetrators.

For example, consider an example in which a girl has eight red apples while a boy has two green apples.  Here, 50% of the children are boys and another 50% are girls.  It is not valid to multiply 50% (boy) with 100% (boy’s green apples) to conclude that “50% of all the apples combined are green”.  It is clear that only 20% of all the apples are green (two out of 10 apples) when one combines the red and green apples together.  Part of the mistake in the deriving of the “50%” stems from a negligence to take into account the inherent multiplicity: a child can have multiple apples (just as a victim can have multiple perpetrators).

D.      As the study population is U.S. adults in non-institutional settings, the sample was designed to be representative of the study population, not the perpetrator population (therefore no sampling or weighting is done for the undefined universe of perpetrators).  Hence, while the data can be analyzed to make statistical inferences about the victimization of U.S. adults residing in non-institutional settings, the NISVS data are incapable of lending support to any national estimates of the perpetrator population, let alone estimates of perpetrators of a specific form of violence (say, rape or being-made-to-penetrate).

E.      Combining the estimated past 12-month female rape victims with the estimated past 12-month being-made-to-penetrate male victims cannot give an accurate number of all victims who were either raped or being-made-to-penetrate, even if this combination is consistent with CDC’s definition.

Besides a disagreement with the definitions of the various forms of violence given in the NISVS 2010 Summary Report, this approach of combining the 12-month estimated number of female rape victims with the 12-month estimated number of male victims misses victims in the cells where reliable estimates were not reported due to small cell counts failing to meet statistical reliability criteria.  For any combined form of violence, the correct analytical approach for obtaining a national estimate is to start at the raw data level of analysis, if such a creation of a combined construct is established.

So you’re going to need to go back to the drawing board, MRAs.

What is especially distressing here is that the NISVS data could have been the starting point for a serious discussion of male victims of sexual assault by women, which is a real and often overlooked issue. Unfortunately, MRAs have once again poisoned the well by misusing data in an attempt to exaggerate the purported villainy of women and score cheap rhetorical points.

NOTE: A regular in the AgainstMensRights subreddit approached the NISVS researchers with this same question some months back. Unfortunately, the statement they got back from the NISVS contained an incorrect number. The statement I’m quoting here corrects this number and adds more context.

I can provide contact info for the NISVS representative who got back to me on this to any serious (non-troll) person who requests it.

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Brooked
Brooked
10 years ago

Don’t get too excited dude, you haven’t shook anything, it’s just that this thread has been necro-trolled so much it’s starting to resemble Ash’s deadite-possessed hand in Evil Dead 2. It’s giving us the finger and we’re reaching for the boomstick.

sparky
sparky
10 years ago

Well, that was even more incomprehensible than the last post.

There were no comments on this thread before you showed up because it was a dead thread. You necro’d it. That’s what necrotrolls do.

This has been like arguing with someone who thinks the sun rises in the west and sinks in the east. And no matter how many times the obvious is pointed out; no matter how much evidence is provided, that person still shouts, “LOL! THE SUN RISES IN THE WEST! CHECKMATE, FEMINISTS!”

Viscaria
Viscaria
10 years ago

This effing thread will probably outlive us all. Will no one let it die with dignity?

Ally S
10 years ago

[Content note: rape]

Also, let’s assume that the study you found is conclusive and methodologically sound. Even so, you will run into yet another sample problem.

If you look at the NISVS screening questions for sexual victimization, you will find this question among them:

When you were drunk, high, drugged, or
passed out and unable to consent, how
many people ever…

had vaginal sex with you? By vaginal sex, we mean that {if female: a man or boy put his penis in your vagina} {if male: a woman or girl made you put your penis in her vagina}?

Note that the survey methodology of the study you cited – I’m getting tired of repeating this – did not include questions that screened for drug/alcohol-facilitated rape and rape of passed-out victims. Therefore, when you try to use data from that study to make a conclusion about this study, you are necessarily comparing apples to oranges. Each study screened for different kinds of victimizations, for crying out loud!

hellkell
hellkell
10 years ago

This is probably the only thread in MBZ history that should be locked.

sparky
sparky
10 years ago

I wonder why this thread, in particular, seems to piss them off so much?

Ally S
10 years ago

Have some compassion, hellkell. The MRAs just reeeeeeeeeally want to inflate statistics because that will make them feel better about using female-on-male rape victims as a way to bolster their anti-woman agenda. I mean, what else are they going to do? Shut up?

hellkell
hellkell
10 years ago

That’d be a start.

Ally S
10 years ago

The only thing that could make this thread worse is the return of Tamen, TS or TFJ.

Brooked
Brooked
10 years ago

@H5whatever

In the face of no counter evidence this study looks just fine.

That’s not a study, it’s an article using and interpreting data from something called The International Dating Violence Study. There are lots of papers that use that data and people tend to look at large body of articles and studies before making broad claims about rape.

Unless they’re like you, who seems to think that any one article, if they like it’s conclusions, holds all the answers and life is an endless game of non-scholarly “gotcha”.

Ally S
10 years ago

Yet another problem with the Hines study SIR CAPS LOCK cited: it only screens for sexual victimization committed by intimate partners. The range of victimization captured in the Hines study survey is very small compared to the range of victimization captured in the NISVS survey.

Brooked
Brooked
10 years ago

The question is how likely is it that the rate for the 12 months is much less than the lifetime rate. I’ve already cited a study that says as women gain in social stature, they’re more likely to rape men. Thus the rate of women raping men would increase over time, making it more likely the 12 month rate WOULD EXCEED the lifetime rate. And after Ally critiqued that study, I asserted this conclusion was obvious, since people who aren’t empowered enough to believe they can rape, won’t rape.

You realize that pulling conclusions out of your ass (aka guessing) is not reasoning? And that this is simple-minded horseshit?
You’re going believe that one article proves that there is one single social factor that leads to an increase of female-on-male rape and your going use it to make claims about a different study, claims that go beyond that study’s scope. No sale. Pure conjecture isn’t how you do social science.

No argument is going to transform the CDC’s study that collected data about victims into a study that collected data about victimizers.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
10 years ago

He’s still wanking in all caps? Really?

Brooked
Brooked
10 years ago

@Ally

Having only ~2,000 men interviewed for a global study is a little troubling. They have ~200 from all of Asia, less then a 100 from Latin America, almost 300 from Canada, ~60 from Aus/NZ, ~50 from Israel, almost 700 from Europe (mostly Western) and around 700 from the US (disproportionately Southern). That’s a little thin to me, hopefully they are working on a bigger study (this one’s from 2001-2006).

Ally S
10 years ago

The caps are hilarious. I THINK IT’S FUNNY HOW THEY THINK THAT YELLING ON THE INTERNET IS A SUBSTITUTE FOR MEANINGFUL STATISTICAL ANALYSIS.

kittehserf
10 years ago

D’you think they yell like this when they’re ON THE BEACH?

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
10 years ago

I MAY NOT HAVE EITHER RHETORICAL SKILLS OR MUCH OF A POINT, BUT CHECK OUT MY CAPSLOCK KEY. ARE YOU NOT SWAYED BY ITS MYSTICAL POWER?

Ally S
10 years ago

Having only ~2,000 men interviewed for a global study is a little troubling. They have ~200 from all of Asia, less then a 100 from Latin America, almost 300 from Canada, ~60 from Aus/NZ, ~50 from Israel, almost 700 from Europe (mostly Western) and around 700 from the US (disproportionately Southern). That’s a little thin to me, hopefully they are working on a bigger study (this one’s from 2001-2006).

Wow, that sample distribution lacks so much uniformity that the chance of results being skewed is extremely high. O_O ~700 from Western Europe and ~50 from Israel? Ok then…

Ally S
10 years ago

PERSONALLY I THINK THE BEST KIND OF MRA DUDEBRO RAGE IS BOLDFACE CAPS RAGE. IT MAKES ME GIGGLE!

Argenti Aertheri
10 years ago

“Approximately 4% of sexual assault victims are men who were forced to penetrate by a woman. (Male made to penetrate victims divided by total number of victims, lifetime data, times 79% — the number of them reporting a female perpetrator)
That’s a tenth of the MRA claim.” Is it me, or are you arguing in favor of my statement that the rate that women rape men is probably increasing over time by contrasting the lifetime and 12 month data. You earlier in this thread posted an impressive list of studies showing women rape men with surprising frequency, so I refer you to your own studies.

So few words for so much fail. For the bazilionth time, you cannot say with any certainly what percentage of men raped in those 12 months were raped by women. You cannot apply lifetime data to 12 month data, see the goddamned CDC reply at the top of the page for why, I’ve explained it enough times already. So no, I am most certainly not making any argument about the rate at which women rape men increasing, or decreasing, or remaining at exactly the same rate. WE JUST CANNOT KNOW FROM THE AVAILABLE DATA!

I was, however, using valid math to display how the lifetime data shows a rate a tenth of what MRAs claim. 40% of rape victims are not men raped by women, rather 4% of sexual assault victims are men raped by women. Just a wee bit of a difference there eh?

Those weren’t my studies, that was me frisking the studies of someone making a claim very similar to yours — that men and women are raped at approximately equal rates. Every last one of those studies was either completely useless or said the opposite of that. The highest rate in them was, iirc, men being victimized at half the rate women are. (Which, iirc, was about double the CDC data, aka the 4% I explained a bit ago)

Oh and no, that study doesn’t say that as women gain status they rape more men. It says that social status is CORRELATED with the rate of rape. Repeat after me: correlation is not causation.

cloudiah
10 years ago

H5N1 is still here, refusing to read the thread before exposing hir ass?

Wow.

h5n6q
h5n6q
10 years ago

Damn computer problems! Well, you can rest easy. None of your replies are worth responding to, I’ve already countered them. So this thread can go back to sleep. It is SOOOO funny that you keep saying you want this thread to end when probably 90% of the posts over these few days WERE BY YOU!!! LMFAO Wouldn’t surprise me if you guys type 10 more posts even after I said it can end.

Howard Bannister
10 years ago

None of your replies are worth responding to, I’ve already countered them

Pfffffffff

Son, try reading comprehension. You might learn something!

Brooked
Brooked
10 years ago

None of your replies are worth responding to, I’ve already countered them.

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

hellkell
hellkell
10 years ago

Let’s hope the Dunning-Kruger posterchild sticks his lil’ flounce.

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