Feminists often complain, with considerable justification, that Men’s Rights Activists try to turn every conversation about women’s issues into a game of “what about the men?” You’re talking about female rape victims — well, what about the male rape victims?
The trouble with this strategy, from the point of view of the Men’s Rights Activists anyway, is that this little “gotcha” is much less of a “gotcha” then they’d like it to be.
In the case of rape, for example, feminists are well aware that men are raped as well: the “Don’t Be That Guy” ad campaign, which sent so many MRAs into hysterics, focused on male victims as well as female ones. The emergency room rape advocate organization that a friend of mine volunteers for provides advocacy for victims regardless of gender.
So many MRAs have started playing another game: trying to twist the conversation around in order to cast women as the villains. Rape is a bit tough for them here, since the overwhelming majority of rapists are male. So MRAs talk about the alleged epidemic of female false accusers instead. Or they change the topic entirely and make dead baby jokes (see my post yesterday).
Recently, MRAs have tried a new strategy, seizing on data from The National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey, a massive study conducted in 2010 under the aegis of the Centers for Disease Control, to claim that “40% of rapists are women.”
This is a claim repeated by numerous MRAs on numerous websites; see, for example, this post by A Voice for Men’s Typhonblue on the blog GendErratic. Here’s the same claim made into an “infographic” for the Men’s Rights subreddit.
Trouble is, this claim is flat-out false, based on an incorrect understanding of the NISVS data. But you don’t have to take my word for it: the NISVS researchers themselves say the MRA “interpretation” of their data is based on bad math. It’s not just a question of different definitions of rape: the MRA claims are untenable even if you include men who were “made to penetrate” women as victims of rape (as the MRAs do) rather than as victims of “sexual violence other than rape” (as the NISVS does).
I wrote to the NISVS for clarification of this matter recently, and got back a detailed analysis, straight from the horse’s mouth, of where the MRA arguments went wrong. This is long, and a bit technical, but it’s also pretty definitive, so it’s worth quoting in detail. (I’ve bolded some of the text below for emphasis, and broken some of the larger walls of text into shorter paragraphs.)
It appears that the math used to derive an estimated percentage of female rapists … is flawed. First, we will summarize the assertion and what we perceive to be the basis for the assertion.
According to the web links, the “40% of rapists were women” was derived from these two steps:
1) Combining the estimated number of female rape victims with the estimated number of being-made-to-penetrate male victims in the 12 months prior to the survey to conclude that about 50% of the rape or being-made-to-penetrate victims were males;
2) Multiplying the estimated percentage (79%) of male being-made-to-penetrate victims who reported having had female perpetrators in these victims’ lifetime with the 50% obtained in step 1 to claim that 40% of perpetrators of rape or being-made-to-penetrate were women.
None of these calculations should be used nor can these conclusions be correctly drawn from these calculations.
First the researchers clarify the issue of definition:
To explain, in NISVS we define rape as “any completed or attempted unwanted vaginal (for women), oral, or anal penetration through the use of physical force (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threats to physically harm and includes times when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent.”
We defined sexual violence other than rape to include being made to penetrate someone else, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and non-contact unwanted sexual experiences. Made to penetrate is defined as including “times when the victim was made to, or there was an attempt to make them, sexually penetrate someone without the victim’s consent because the victim was physically forced (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threatened with physical harm, or when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent.”
The difference between “rape” and “being made to penetrate” is that in the definition of rape the victim is penetrated; “made to penetrate” by definition refers to cases where the victim penetrated someone else.
While there are multiple definitions of rape and sexual violence used in the field, CDC, with the help of experts in the field, has developed these specific definitions of rape and other forms of sexual violence (such as made to penetrate, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and non-contact unwanted sexual experiences). We use these definitions to help guide our analytical decisions.
Now the researchers get into the details of the math:
Regarding the specific assertion in question, several aspects of mistreatments of the data and the published estimates occurred in the above derivation:
A. While the percentage of female rape victims and the percentage of male being-made-to-penetrate victims were inferred from the past 12-month estimates by combining two forms of violence, the percentage of perpetrator by sex was taken from reported estimates for males for lifetime (a misuse of the percentage of male victims who reported only female perpetrators in their lifetime being made to penetrate victimization). This mismatch of timeframes is incorrect because the past 12-month victimization cannot be stretched to equate with lifetime victimization. In fact, Table 2.1 and 2.2 of the NISVS 2010 Summary Report clearly report that lifetime rape victimization of females (estimated at 21,840,000) is about 4 times the number of lifetime being made-to-penetrate of males (estimated at 5,451,000).
B. An arithmetic confusion appears when multiplying the two percentages together to conclude that the product is a percentage of all the “rapists”, an undefined perpetrator population. Multiplying the percentage of male victims (as derived in step 1) above) to the percentage of male victims who had female perpetrators cannot give a percentage of perpetrators mathematically because to get a percentage of female rape perpetrators, one must have the total rape perpetrators (the denominator), and the number of female perpetrators of this specific violence (the numerator). Here, neither the numerator nor the denominator was available.
C. Data collected and analyzed for the NISVS 2010 have a “one-to-multiple” structure (where the “one” refers to one victim and the “multiple” refers to multiple perpetrators). While not collected, it is conceivable that any perpetrator could have multiple victims. These multiplicities hinder any attempt to get a percentage of perpetrators such as the one described in steps 1) and 2), and nullify the reverse calculation for obtaining a percent of perpetrators.
For example, consider an example in which a girl has eight red apples while a boy has two green apples. Here, 50% of the children are boys and another 50% are girls. It is not valid to multiply 50% (boy) with 100% (boy’s green apples) to conclude that “50% of all the apples combined are green”. It is clear that only 20% of all the apples are green (two out of 10 apples) when one combines the red and green apples together. Part of the mistake in the deriving of the “50%” stems from a negligence to take into account the inherent multiplicity: a child can have multiple apples (just as a victim can have multiple perpetrators).
D. As the study population is U.S. adults in non-institutional settings, the sample was designed to be representative of the study population, not the perpetrator population (therefore no sampling or weighting is done for the undefined universe of perpetrators). Hence, while the data can be analyzed to make statistical inferences about the victimization of U.S. adults residing in non-institutional settings, the NISVS data are incapable of lending support to any national estimates of the perpetrator population, let alone estimates of perpetrators of a specific form of violence (say, rape or being-made-to-penetrate).
E. Combining the estimated past 12-month female rape victims with the estimated past 12-month being-made-to-penetrate male victims cannot give an accurate number of all victims who were either raped or being-made-to-penetrate, even if this combination is consistent with CDC’s definition.
Besides a disagreement with the definitions of the various forms of violence given in the NISVS 2010 Summary Report, this approach of combining the 12-month estimated number of female rape victims with the 12-month estimated number of male victims misses victims in the cells where reliable estimates were not reported due to small cell counts failing to meet statistical reliability criteria. For any combined form of violence, the correct analytical approach for obtaining a national estimate is to start at the raw data level of analysis, if such a creation of a combined construct is established.
So you’re going to need to go back to the drawing board, MRAs.
What is especially distressing here is that the NISVS data could have been the starting point for a serious discussion of male victims of sexual assault by women, which is a real and often overlooked issue. Unfortunately, MRAs have once again poisoned the well by misusing data in an attempt to exaggerate the purported villainy of women and score cheap rhetorical points.
NOTE: A regular in the AgainstMensRights subreddit approached the NISVS researchers with this same question some months back. Unfortunately, the statement they got back from the NISVS contained an incorrect number. The statement I’m quoting here corrects this number and adds more context.
I can provide contact info for the NISVS representative who got back to me on this to any serious (non-troll) person who requests it.
*starts singing*
This is the thread that doesn’t end
yes it goes on and on my friend
David started it not knowing what it was
and trolls will keep on necroing it forever just because
This is the thread that doesn’t end….
http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/35/9c/ff/359cffdf0f6a5094931c54119c09953c.jpg
If the math is faulty, then you’re drawing conclusions from faulty math, making your conclusions faulty. I’m sorry you don’t seem to grasp this.
Is that you’re trying to say? No, that’s not even close to reality. The 12 month figures are not equivalent to the lifetime figures. You cannot compare them like that. Again, I’m sorry you don’t seem to grasp this.
This is not a strawman. You actually said:
And if course you know, saying “Of those who were raped, 40% were men who were raped by women” is the same thing as saying, “40% of rapes are women raping men,” you point that out yourself with the all-in-caps “gee what a huge difference that makes! Lol!” little sarcastic snipe at the end there.
So why are you denying what you said? Is it, perhaps, that you’re not here to argue in good faith, and instead have an axe to grind, and are willing to bend the laws of mathematics and science in order to do so?
How do you know that it’s most likely at least the same as the lifetime figure data? My point is that, because the samples are different, the data from those samples are most likely different as well. Maybe the gender ratio for rapists reported within the last 12 months is equal to or greater than the gender ratio for rapists reported within a lifetime. But you have no reason to assume that’s the case unless you have some empirical evidence that supports that assumption. So far, the evidence you have provided (the study you linked to) is inconclusive because the study’s methodology left out an extremely common form of rape and only screened for past-year victimization. Really, you don’t have much of an argument here.
I mean, seriously, you keep repeating that study as if it’s a solid piece of evidence, but this study surveyed university women only. And left out drug/alcohol-facilitated rape, which is extremely common on college campuses. This is error is so significant that it’s just like researching domestic violence defined only as physical abuse against a partner and nothing more.
::snort:: Because power is all about being able to rape people, innit? That’s the MRA attitude, anyway.
You know, thanks to Brandi, I’m reading about freakin’ FATAL. And THAT’S more interesting than this dude.
Do you always walk late into discussions and say shit people have already talked about? Or are we just special?
Unfortunately, as obvious as this conclusion is to you, you still have to actually back it up. And not with that study, which as I have shown is non-generalizable.
Sparky: Not a bad post. Compared to some of the others, I’m starting to think some people here are just trolls. Guess that shouldn’t surprise me, why would this be different than youtube for example.
“If the math is faulty, then you’re drawing conclusions from faulty math, making your conclusions faulty. I’m sorry you don’t seem to grasp this.” Did you know even some published mathematical proofs are not strictly rigorous in the classical sense anymore?
“Is that you’re trying to say? No, that’s not even close to reality. The 12 month figures are not equivalent to the lifetime figures. You cannot compare them like that. Again, I’m sorry you don’t seem to grasp this.” Yes I can. If we assume circumstances are likely to increase something, we can say certain things are likely. EG. If we assume global warming is a reality, I can say “most likely the average temp worldwide over the last 10 years exceeds the recent historical average”, even if I don’t know the latest 10 year average.
“And if course you know, saying “Of those who were raped, 40% were men who were raped by women” is the same thing as saying, “40% of rapes are women raping men,” you point that out yourself with the all-in-caps “gee what a huge difference that makes! Lol!”
The two statements are not the same, a rape can have more than one victim and a victim can be raped more than once. But I must admit, you did make me realize I made a mistake here. I mischaracterized the statement the CDC critiqued. The original statement should have been “40% of rapists are female” and the new statement was correct as “Of those who were raped, 40% were men who were raped by women”. The difference is supposed to be one counts perpetrators, the other counts victims, nullifying most of the CDC’s critique, all but the mixing of lifetime and 12 month data. My muff counted neither, it counted incidents. OOOPS, my bad! Sorry about that. Doesn’t change the fact that others here are not attacking what I said. Unless someone here said “Of those who were raped, 40% were men raped by women” I could not be repeating what was said before. If you can find this sentence, and NOT the other versions I mentioned, then please point it out to me.
Quite the red herring you have there. sparky isn’t talking about strict rigor of mathematical accuracy. She is saying that drawing conclusions from faulty math makes those conclusions faulty as well. This is a much bigger problem than the mere lack of rigor and airtightness. You are trivializing the problem for no reason.
Also, dude. Your quoting is getting bothersome, so please use blockquotes (e.g. <blockquote>insert text here</blockquote>).
But we’re not talking about that. We’re talking about some pretty simple statistics, really.
And, again, I’m sorry you don’t seem to grasp this. But you’re not bringing anything new to the discussion.
Again, this is an incorrect statement. First, the 40% figure can only be reached by combining 12 month and lifetime data, which is an incorrect thing to do because those two data sets on not equivalent. And you’re never going to make them equivalent, no matter how many times you try to re-word things or or appeal to quantum mechanics. The 40% figure is simply factually incorrect. It is wrong. Second, the CDC report broke down sexual violence into penetrative rape and MTP rape, us other forms of sexual violence. The 40% figure comes from using only from men who were MTP in the last 12 months. An accurate statement would be: “In the past 12 months, of the victims of sexual violence who were men, X%(don’t have the actual percentage at my fingertips) of those men experienced MTP rape; and out of that subset of men, 80% reported having a female perpetrator.”
You are indeed repeating what was said before because you are saying the same thing.
“us other forms of sexual violence” should read “as well as other forms of sexual violence.”
Nah, it’s not you, he’s rambling.
I’m just going to ignore the repeat conversation, if it can be called that. Sparky, your last sentence has an important error — you can only do that for lifetime data, not 12 month, for the reasons you explained at the beginning of your comment.
Give me a sec and I’ll run that math.
No, troll seems to be devolving into incoherency. It seems like h5n6q doesn’t have much by way of actual arguments or evidence.
From what I can tell, that last post seemed to be arguing that because no one had disproven the exact wording of “Of those who were raped, 40% were men raped by women,” then that makes the statement true. And somehow, that statement is not saying the same thing as “40% of rapists are women.” Even though it is. And no matter how you rearrange the words, it’s just factually incorrect.
Approximately 4% of sexual assault victims are men who were forced to penetrate by a woman. (Male made to penetrate victims divided by total number of victims, lifetime data, times 79% — the number of them reporting a female perpetrator)
That’s a tenth of the MRA claim.
~21% of sexual assault victims are women raped by men (the vast majority of the remaining 3/4ths were women experiencing non-rape sexual assault, mostly by men — that group makes up 48% of sexual assault victims)
Oops, my bad.
Yes! That’s what I was trying to get at! Thank you!
No problem Sparky! I still love stats, I just hate repeating myself fifteen times!
I feel sorry, Argenti, that your stats wizardry will be summarily be ignored by Necrotizing Trollitis over there.
Try telling that to various governments around the world. /sour snark
HOLY SH*T! This thread had no comments for a long time until I showed up, now there’s so many I can’t possibly respond to all of them. I SHOOK SOMEBODY UP! LOL So I’ll have to pick a few.
“What does the increased empowerment of women have to do with anything?” As I said, if you don’t feel powerful enough to rape, then you don’t rape.
“I mean, seriously, you keep repeating that study as if it’s a solid piece of evidence,” Funny thing is no one has given any evidence that the rate would go down. In the face of no counter evidence this study looks just fine. And read the previous paragraph, you keep wanting to ignore not only that more empowered women mean more feel capable of raping men, but until recently women raping men wasn’t really spoken of. Like mass shootings, if you talk about them a lot, it’s more likely people will think of doing it. You say I have to back it up, but you have not backed up any argument that it is less. Again, no counter evidence.
“She is saying that drawing conclusions from faulty math makes those conclusions faulty as well.” Talk about Red herrings, it’s my reasoning we’re questioning, not my math. The question is my reasoning that the 12 month rate is as high or higher than the lifetime rate.
” “Of those who were raped, 40% were men raped by women,” then that makes the statement true. And somehow, that statement is not saying the same thing as “40% of rapists are women.” Even though it is. And no matter how you rearrange the words, it’s just factually incorrect.” Thus proving my comment that some people probably can’t tell the difference between such sentences.
“Approximately 4% of sexual assault victims are men who were forced to penetrate by a woman. (Male made to penetrate victims divided by total number of victims, lifetime data, times 79% — the number of them reporting a female perpetrator)
That’s a tenth of the MRA claim.” Is it me, or are you arguing in favor of my statement that the rate that women rape men is probably increasing over time by contrasting the lifetime and 12 month data. You earlier in this thread posted an impressive list of studies showing women rape men with surprising frequency, so I refer you to your own studies.
Fuck off. Go do something productive with your time, like learning stats.
I’ll say it again. The results of the study are unreliable because its survey methodology does not screen for a major form of sexual victimization and only screens for sexual victimization within the past year. That means that the conclusions made about the correlation between status and the prevalence female-on-male sexual violence rests on unreliable data that does not truly represent all kinds of rape. At best the conclusion can be made from the subset of sexual victimization screened for in the survey methodology. I have no study that actually serves as evidence contrary to the study you linked to, but I don’t need one. All I have to do is to show that whatever you’re citing is inconclusive.
Speaking of “counter evidence,” I have my evidence right in front of me: the study you cited. I read it and found that the methodology was flawed – even the authors of the study acknowledge the limitations I’ve pointed out, as shown in a large quotation I pulled out from the article earlier.
Fuck, you’re stupid.
The thread had already been hashed out at the time it was posted, in detail. All you’re doing is repeating the usual troll talking points.
Necro trolls get scorned even more than the current ones. Stirred someone up? Yeah, you keep telling yourself that, sonny.