Feminists often complain, with considerable justification, that Men’s Rights Activists try to turn every conversation about women’s issues into a game of “what about the men?” You’re talking about female rape victims — well, what about the male rape victims?
The trouble with this strategy, from the point of view of the Men’s Rights Activists anyway, is that this little “gotcha” is much less of a “gotcha” then they’d like it to be.
In the case of rape, for example, feminists are well aware that men are raped as well: the “Don’t Be That Guy” ad campaign, which sent so many MRAs into hysterics, focused on male victims as well as female ones. The emergency room rape advocate organization that a friend of mine volunteers for provides advocacy for victims regardless of gender.
So many MRAs have started playing another game: trying to twist the conversation around in order to cast women as the villains. Rape is a bit tough for them here, since the overwhelming majority of rapists are male. So MRAs talk about the alleged epidemic of female false accusers instead. Or they change the topic entirely and make dead baby jokes (see my post yesterday).
Recently, MRAs have tried a new strategy, seizing on data from The National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey, a massive study conducted in 2010 under the aegis of the Centers for Disease Control, to claim that “40% of rapists are women.”
This is a claim repeated by numerous MRAs on numerous websites; see, for example, this post by A Voice for Men’s Typhonblue on the blog GendErratic. Here’s the same claim made into an “infographic” for the Men’s Rights subreddit.
Trouble is, this claim is flat-out false, based on an incorrect understanding of the NISVS data. But you don’t have to take my word for it: the NISVS researchers themselves say the MRA “interpretation” of their data is based on bad math. It’s not just a question of different definitions of rape: the MRA claims are untenable even if you include men who were “made to penetrate” women as victims of rape (as the MRAs do) rather than as victims of “sexual violence other than rape” (as the NISVS does).
I wrote to the NISVS for clarification of this matter recently, and got back a detailed analysis, straight from the horse’s mouth, of where the MRA arguments went wrong. This is long, and a bit technical, but it’s also pretty definitive, so it’s worth quoting in detail. (I’ve bolded some of the text below for emphasis, and broken some of the larger walls of text into shorter paragraphs.)
It appears that the math used to derive an estimated percentage of female rapists … is flawed. First, we will summarize the assertion and what we perceive to be the basis for the assertion.
According to the web links, the “40% of rapists were women” was derived from these two steps:
1) Combining the estimated number of female rape victims with the estimated number of being-made-to-penetrate male victims in the 12 months prior to the survey to conclude that about 50% of the rape or being-made-to-penetrate victims were males;
2) Multiplying the estimated percentage (79%) of male being-made-to-penetrate victims who reported having had female perpetrators in these victims’ lifetime with the 50% obtained in step 1 to claim that 40% of perpetrators of rape or being-made-to-penetrate were women.
None of these calculations should be used nor can these conclusions be correctly drawn from these calculations.
First the researchers clarify the issue of definition:
To explain, in NISVS we define rape as “any completed or attempted unwanted vaginal (for women), oral, or anal penetration through the use of physical force (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threats to physically harm and includes times when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent.”
We defined sexual violence other than rape to include being made to penetrate someone else, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and non-contact unwanted sexual experiences. Made to penetrate is defined as including “times when the victim was made to, or there was an attempt to make them, sexually penetrate someone without the victim’s consent because the victim was physically forced (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threatened with physical harm, or when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent.”
The difference between “rape” and “being made to penetrate” is that in the definition of rape the victim is penetrated; “made to penetrate” by definition refers to cases where the victim penetrated someone else.
While there are multiple definitions of rape and sexual violence used in the field, CDC, with the help of experts in the field, has developed these specific definitions of rape and other forms of sexual violence (such as made to penetrate, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and non-contact unwanted sexual experiences). We use these definitions to help guide our analytical decisions.
Now the researchers get into the details of the math:
Regarding the specific assertion in question, several aspects of mistreatments of the data and the published estimates occurred in the above derivation:
A. While the percentage of female rape victims and the percentage of male being-made-to-penetrate victims were inferred from the past 12-month estimates by combining two forms of violence, the percentage of perpetrator by sex was taken from reported estimates for males for lifetime (a misuse of the percentage of male victims who reported only female perpetrators in their lifetime being made to penetrate victimization). This mismatch of timeframes is incorrect because the past 12-month victimization cannot be stretched to equate with lifetime victimization. In fact, Table 2.1 and 2.2 of the NISVS 2010 Summary Report clearly report that lifetime rape victimization of females (estimated at 21,840,000) is about 4 times the number of lifetime being made-to-penetrate of males (estimated at 5,451,000).
B. An arithmetic confusion appears when multiplying the two percentages together to conclude that the product is a percentage of all the “rapists”, an undefined perpetrator population. Multiplying the percentage of male victims (as derived in step 1) above) to the percentage of male victims who had female perpetrators cannot give a percentage of perpetrators mathematically because to get a percentage of female rape perpetrators, one must have the total rape perpetrators (the denominator), and the number of female perpetrators of this specific violence (the numerator). Here, neither the numerator nor the denominator was available.
C. Data collected and analyzed for the NISVS 2010 have a “one-to-multiple” structure (where the “one” refers to one victim and the “multiple” refers to multiple perpetrators). While not collected, it is conceivable that any perpetrator could have multiple victims. These multiplicities hinder any attempt to get a percentage of perpetrators such as the one described in steps 1) and 2), and nullify the reverse calculation for obtaining a percent of perpetrators.
For example, consider an example in which a girl has eight red apples while a boy has two green apples. Here, 50% of the children are boys and another 50% are girls. It is not valid to multiply 50% (boy) with 100% (boy’s green apples) to conclude that “50% of all the apples combined are green”. It is clear that only 20% of all the apples are green (two out of 10 apples) when one combines the red and green apples together. Part of the mistake in the deriving of the “50%” stems from a negligence to take into account the inherent multiplicity: a child can have multiple apples (just as a victim can have multiple perpetrators).
D. As the study population is U.S. adults in non-institutional settings, the sample was designed to be representative of the study population, not the perpetrator population (therefore no sampling or weighting is done for the undefined universe of perpetrators). Hence, while the data can be analyzed to make statistical inferences about the victimization of U.S. adults residing in non-institutional settings, the NISVS data are incapable of lending support to any national estimates of the perpetrator population, let alone estimates of perpetrators of a specific form of violence (say, rape or being-made-to-penetrate).
E. Combining the estimated past 12-month female rape victims with the estimated past 12-month being-made-to-penetrate male victims cannot give an accurate number of all victims who were either raped or being-made-to-penetrate, even if this combination is consistent with CDC’s definition.
Besides a disagreement with the definitions of the various forms of violence given in the NISVS 2010 Summary Report, this approach of combining the 12-month estimated number of female rape victims with the 12-month estimated number of male victims misses victims in the cells where reliable estimates were not reported due to small cell counts failing to meet statistical reliability criteria. For any combined form of violence, the correct analytical approach for obtaining a national estimate is to start at the raw data level of analysis, if such a creation of a combined construct is established.
So you’re going to need to go back to the drawing board, MRAs.
What is especially distressing here is that the NISVS data could have been the starting point for a serious discussion of male victims of sexual assault by women, which is a real and often overlooked issue. Unfortunately, MRAs have once again poisoned the well by misusing data in an attempt to exaggerate the purported villainy of women and score cheap rhetorical points.
NOTE: A regular in the AgainstMensRights subreddit approached the NISVS researchers with this same question some months back. Unfortunately, the statement they got back from the NISVS contained an incorrect number. The statement I’m quoting here corrects this number and adds more context.
I can provide contact info for the NISVS representative who got back to me on this to any serious (non-troll) person who requests it.
Oh, FFS, not the same tired old bullshit on the same old thread.
If you’re going to necro-troll, you might as well be original about it.
Behold, the link at the bottom of the page that says “Older Comments”! The answer to your questions lies beyond that link.
You cannot determine the percentage of female perpetrators relative to male perpetrators by looking at a sample of victims. It’s definitely not trivial and the fact that you think it’s unimportant “nitpicking” reflects how shitty your understanding of statistics is. The only way to obtain a reliable estimate of the ratio of female perpetrators to male perpetrators is to screen respondents for sexual violence they have perpetrated.
Also, when are you MRA/anti-feminist/”egalitarian”/misogynist-contrarian-asshole-of-the-day douchebags going to stop bringing up the same fucking studies over and over again? Look at that shit study you cited right here. It says this:
So no, that study doesn’t help you. Go away.
I’m sorry, I was really angry there. I’m having a very unpleasant night and I apologize if anything sounded really harsh or mean.
” when are you MRA/anti-feminist/”egalitarian”/misogynist-contrarian-asshole-of-the-day douchebags”
Yeah, your lame apology COMPLETELY makes up for that – NOT. Ad hominem nonsense only shows you have no legitimate points.
But let me make it even more obvious. The fact that I adjusted my comment by saying “Fine, so instead of “40% of rapes are women raping men” we can say “of those who were raped, 40% were men who were raped by women”. GEE, WHAT A HUGE DIFFERENCE THAT MAKES! LOL” means I realized what you said, but you just didn’t read my post carefully enough to realize that, so you made a point I already conceded. My point was that concession was trivial, as in my new statement “of those who were raped, 40% were men who were raped by women” still makes the point, which is THAT WOMEN RAPE MEN A LOT MORE THAN PEOPLE THINK. And thus, the revision is itself trivial. How much you wanna bet some people don’t even realize the two statements are different. So you can stop talking about perpetrators, because I already did, while still making my point, which I’ll repeat now, maybe you’ll get it the THIRD time. “of those who were raped, 40% were men who were raped by women”.
And as for your “Look his study isn’t perfect” bit, yeah, call me when you find the “perfect” study, whatever the hell that even means. What’s more, I maintain the point I took from their study, which is “in that the greater the status of women, the higher the level of forced sex against men.” is, in fact, obvious. If you don’t see yourself as powerful enough to rape someone, then you won’t rape them. Self image is affected by social status.
h5n6q: You’re not saying anything that hasn’t already been discussed and debunked, in great detail, on this thread. You’re waaaay late to the conversation here.
Run along, now.
Another MRA who has no idea what an ad hominem is. How surprising.
But the CDC’s response wasn’t intended to counter the claim that women rape men a lot more than people think. It was intended to counter the idea that the data from victims reflects a reliable estimate of the ratio of male to female perpetrators. It’s an important point because many people are making the claim, based on the CDC data, that 40% of all rapists are female.
I didn’t say that the study had to be perfect. I said that the study is flawed because it didn’t actually capture the full range of sexual victimization. And so any conclusions made from the data are highly unreliable.
Also, the fact that you think the non-inclusivity of a victimization survey is unimportant doesn’t help your credibility or convince me that you have legitimate points.
I’ve been away for a few days, and hoped I wouldn’t come back to a necro troll — a vain hope, I see.
Ally, I don’t think you need to apologize. Your patience in light of the fact that necro troll can’t be bothered to be thoughtful or to read older comments is actually quite admirable.
Ally has much more patience than I do. I’m basically just going “you’re too lazy to read the earlier comments, and I have the power to click over to a different thread, so bye!”.
The only thing I like about the necro trolls is that they remind me of how smart Ally and Argenti and the rest of our commentariat are. In case I’m ever in danger of forgetting that!
Ally S: “It was intended to counter the idea that the data from victims reflects a reliable estimate of the ratio of male to female perpetrators.”
Sounds like you and I are pretty close now. My comment “of those who were raped, 40% were men who were raped by women” pretty much is in response to that point. As I said, it concedes the point. Of course the rest of those commenting about me don’t seem capable of realizing that we are in fact pretty much in agreement. Meaning that, yes, it is not mathematically proper to conclude the usual “40% of rapes are women raping men”. I will admit that on occasion I still say that, even though I know it’s not a mathematically feasible conclusion. Why? Because I assume the people I’m talking to are not mathematically sophisticated enough to even understand this. I also admit I really should stop that, and say “of those who were raped, 40% were men who were raped by women”. I probably will do so from now on, since so many people seem to be aware of the CDC’s critique of the old statement. There will be those who won’t even understand the difference between these two statements and will still hit me with “The CDC denies that”. SIGH
Ally S: I should add, of course, that I’m still disagreeing with the CDC critique of mixing lifetime and 12 month data. It may be that you and I still disagree on that part, but I think we agree with the rest.
That is an untrue statement. Of those who were raped, 40% were not men who were raped by women.
The main problem with applying the lifetime figure’s gender of perpetrator data to the 12-month figure is that the lifetime figure and the 12-month figure are not equally and identically representative of all victims and equally generalizable.
One may be tempted to argue that the time frame of victimization doesn’t affect representation, but that argument rests on the decidedly false assumption that there is a uniform age distribution among victims e.g. there is no age range that represents more victims than other age ranges.
This isn’t always a problem, as younger respondents in a survey can technically be screened for past-year victimization as well – just like adult respondents. But the NISVS survey methodology is different. Only adults 18 and over were interviewed in the survey.
Among all youth victimized as youth, the youngest age that can be included in the 12-month figure is 17. But as quite a few victims are 17 or younger, the 12-month figure fails to include victims 17 or younger who were victimized in the past year.
Ergo, the samples are significantly different and so the data from one sample cannot be used to make a conclusion about a different sample.
*bangs head against wall*
1) with the lifetime and 12 month data so different for the number of victims, it is not, I repeat NOT, a fair assumption that any other lifetime data would more closely match 12 month data.
2) no matter how you word it, you cannot say 40% of victims were men raped by women — see point 1. As long as the number you’re using (40%) is arrived at by combining the lifetime and 12 month data it isn’t valid. You can say in those 12 months approximately the same number of men were raped as women. You can also say that data pertaining to male victims’ entire life shows 80% of their rapists were women. But you can’t combine the two.
And I just got a message that is surely far more interesting than repeating myself! (Thanks Cloudiah 🙂 )
Sparky: Gee your asserting something is untrue without any argument backing it up completely convinced…NO ONE!
Again, h5n6q, we here have already had this conversation. In depth. Multiple times.
I am not to explain something to somebody that’s already been explained before. FFS, the CDC in the OP is explaining why you’re wrong. I can’t help if you’re too lazy to read any of the previous comments. I also can’t help if you refuse to “believe” mathematical principles.
Besides, both Ally and Argenti explained why you are wrong. Just a couple comments up.
If you can’t be bothered to read the two commentators that specifically addressed you, then, well, what else is there to add? Other than, you’re completely wrong.
Is there some reason why this dude is incapable of clicking on the nice little Older Comments link and reading the conversation that already happened about this?
Screaming for attention like a toddler impresses no one, dude.
What is WITH the necro trolls we’ve been having lately? Eesh. And this one seems to be about as dull as Sam.
Here’s the thing. Sure it could possibly be true that all of a sudden, in those months, EVERY male who was made to penetrate was made to do so by a male. There is no proof that the rates are the same. According to quantum mechanics, it’s also true that while I’m typing this I could instantaneously be transported to Mars and back.
The question is how likely is it that the rate for the 12 months is much less than the lifetime rate. I’ve already cited a study that says as women gain in social stature, they’re more likely to rape men. Thus the rate of women raping men would increase over time, making it more likely the 12 month rate WOULD EXCEED the lifetime rate. And after Ally critiqued that study, I asserted this conclusion was obvious, since people who aren’t empowered enough to believe they can rape, won’t rape.
There’s also the question of how likely is it a significant number of men go around making other men penetrate them. About 10% of men are gay. Some VERY few straight men might do this I suppose. But how likely is it this happens a lot?
All I see here is people picking at this topic as if it’s an exercise in a math class. Oh gee, it’s not theoretically correct mathematically. NO SH*T! But I say, if anything, the evidence suggests the 12 month rate is most likely AT LEAST as high as the lifetime rate of 80%, and probably higher. And if you think your arguments are going to convince people that women raping men is not something to be concerned about, well, good luck with that. Go ahead, assert those million men were all made to penetrate by other men.
You say the concern is MRAs using the statement we all, including me, say should not be used. I say the main point is I see more people than that say women cannot rape men, or who think if he is raped, the guy just got lucky. Women who rape men NEVER get arrested. I know of 3 cases of a man accusing a woman of rape in court. But let’s ignore that, and focus on mathematical propriety. I know the people here are not among these rape deniers, you have an impressive list of studies you talk about that say how often women rape men, but this group does NOT, sadly, represent the world, or even the USA.
I wouldn’t even mind you critiquing this is you would put more on such things as Argenti said in his post like “You can say in those 12 months approximately the same number of men were raped as women. You can also say that data pertaining to male victims’ entire life shows 80% of their rapists were women. But you can’t combine the two.” But one toss-in among a mountain of attacks on the math doesn’t cut it.
How about “Yes, it’s horrible that a million men were made to penetrate, and mostly likely the heavy majority of those were done by women, as evidenced by the 80% lifetime rate, but we cannot be certain that the 12 month rate is exactly 80%. It might very well be higher, given such things as the HInes study and increased empowerment of women. And I agree the real problem is sexist double standards that negatively affect male rape victims, and men should be ENCOURAGED to report female rapists.”
If you’d said something like that, hell, I’d say great!
And even while I was typing I see more comments sniping at things I NEVER said. Did I ever say we know the 12 month figure exactly equals the lifetime figure? NO!! I said it mostly likely is AT LEAST the lifetime figure, but never said they are necessarily equal. You also keep attacking the statement often said by MRAs, Ally even identified it as often said by MRAs. One problem, I NEVER SAID IT HERE!! CLASSIC STRAWMANNING – ADDRESS WHAT I SAID, NOT WHAT YOU FEEL LIKE ATTACKING. ARE YOU PEOPLE READING MY COMMENTS???
PEOPLE TAKE ME MORE SERIOUSLY IF I SCREECH AT THEM IN ALL CAPS. IT ARE A FACT. FUCK YOU, I REFUSE TO READ THE EARLIER COMMENTS LIKE PEOPLE KEEP TELLING ME TO.
Can David put this kid on a time-out so he can take a nap or something?
WHY DON’T YOU READ ALL THE 8,000 FUCKING COMMENTS THAT CAME BEFORE?
You’re not bringing one fucking new thing to the table. Kee-rist.