Feminists often complain, with considerable justification, that Men’s Rights Activists try to turn every conversation about women’s issues into a game of “what about the men?” You’re talking about female rape victims — well, what about the male rape victims?
The trouble with this strategy, from the point of view of the Men’s Rights Activists anyway, is that this little “gotcha” is much less of a “gotcha” then they’d like it to be.
In the case of rape, for example, feminists are well aware that men are raped as well: the “Don’t Be That Guy” ad campaign, which sent so many MRAs into hysterics, focused on male victims as well as female ones. The emergency room rape advocate organization that a friend of mine volunteers for provides advocacy for victims regardless of gender.
So many MRAs have started playing another game: trying to twist the conversation around in order to cast women as the villains. Rape is a bit tough for them here, since the overwhelming majority of rapists are male. So MRAs talk about the alleged epidemic of female false accusers instead. Or they change the topic entirely and make dead baby jokes (see my post yesterday).
Recently, MRAs have tried a new strategy, seizing on data from The National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey, a massive study conducted in 2010 under the aegis of the Centers for Disease Control, to claim that “40% of rapists are women.”
This is a claim repeated by numerous MRAs on numerous websites; see, for example, this post by A Voice for Men’s Typhonblue on the blog GendErratic. Here’s the same claim made into an “infographic” for the Men’s Rights subreddit.
Trouble is, this claim is flat-out false, based on an incorrect understanding of the NISVS data. But you don’t have to take my word for it: the NISVS researchers themselves say the MRA “interpretation” of their data is based on bad math. It’s not just a question of different definitions of rape: the MRA claims are untenable even if you include men who were “made to penetrate” women as victims of rape (as the MRAs do) rather than as victims of “sexual violence other than rape” (as the NISVS does).
I wrote to the NISVS for clarification of this matter recently, and got back a detailed analysis, straight from the horse’s mouth, of where the MRA arguments went wrong. This is long, and a bit technical, but it’s also pretty definitive, so it’s worth quoting in detail. (I’ve bolded some of the text below for emphasis, and broken some of the larger walls of text into shorter paragraphs.)
It appears that the math used to derive an estimated percentage of female rapists … is flawed. First, we will summarize the assertion and what we perceive to be the basis for the assertion.
According to the web links, the “40% of rapists were women” was derived from these two steps:
1) Combining the estimated number of female rape victims with the estimated number of being-made-to-penetrate male victims in the 12 months prior to the survey to conclude that about 50% of the rape or being-made-to-penetrate victims were males;
2) Multiplying the estimated percentage (79%) of male being-made-to-penetrate victims who reported having had female perpetrators in these victims’ lifetime with the 50% obtained in step 1 to claim that 40% of perpetrators of rape or being-made-to-penetrate were women.
None of these calculations should be used nor can these conclusions be correctly drawn from these calculations.
First the researchers clarify the issue of definition:
To explain, in NISVS we define rape as “any completed or attempted unwanted vaginal (for women), oral, or anal penetration through the use of physical force (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threats to physically harm and includes times when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent.”
We defined sexual violence other than rape to include being made to penetrate someone else, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and non-contact unwanted sexual experiences. Made to penetrate is defined as including “times when the victim was made to, or there was an attempt to make them, sexually penetrate someone without the victim’s consent because the victim was physically forced (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threatened with physical harm, or when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent.”
The difference between “rape” and “being made to penetrate” is that in the definition of rape the victim is penetrated; “made to penetrate” by definition refers to cases where the victim penetrated someone else.
While there are multiple definitions of rape and sexual violence used in the field, CDC, with the help of experts in the field, has developed these specific definitions of rape and other forms of sexual violence (such as made to penetrate, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and non-contact unwanted sexual experiences). We use these definitions to help guide our analytical decisions.
Now the researchers get into the details of the math:
Regarding the specific assertion in question, several aspects of mistreatments of the data and the published estimates occurred in the above derivation:
A. While the percentage of female rape victims and the percentage of male being-made-to-penetrate victims were inferred from the past 12-month estimates by combining two forms of violence, the percentage of perpetrator by sex was taken from reported estimates for males for lifetime (a misuse of the percentage of male victims who reported only female perpetrators in their lifetime being made to penetrate victimization). This mismatch of timeframes is incorrect because the past 12-month victimization cannot be stretched to equate with lifetime victimization. In fact, Table 2.1 and 2.2 of the NISVS 2010 Summary Report clearly report that lifetime rape victimization of females (estimated at 21,840,000) is about 4 times the number of lifetime being made-to-penetrate of males (estimated at 5,451,000).
B. An arithmetic confusion appears when multiplying the two percentages together to conclude that the product is a percentage of all the “rapists”, an undefined perpetrator population. Multiplying the percentage of male victims (as derived in step 1) above) to the percentage of male victims who had female perpetrators cannot give a percentage of perpetrators mathematically because to get a percentage of female rape perpetrators, one must have the total rape perpetrators (the denominator), and the number of female perpetrators of this specific violence (the numerator). Here, neither the numerator nor the denominator was available.
C. Data collected and analyzed for the NISVS 2010 have a “one-to-multiple” structure (where the “one” refers to one victim and the “multiple” refers to multiple perpetrators). While not collected, it is conceivable that any perpetrator could have multiple victims. These multiplicities hinder any attempt to get a percentage of perpetrators such as the one described in steps 1) and 2), and nullify the reverse calculation for obtaining a percent of perpetrators.
For example, consider an example in which a girl has eight red apples while a boy has two green apples. Here, 50% of the children are boys and another 50% are girls. It is not valid to multiply 50% (boy) with 100% (boy’s green apples) to conclude that “50% of all the apples combined are green”. It is clear that only 20% of all the apples are green (two out of 10 apples) when one combines the red and green apples together. Part of the mistake in the deriving of the “50%” stems from a negligence to take into account the inherent multiplicity: a child can have multiple apples (just as a victim can have multiple perpetrators).
D. As the study population is U.S. adults in non-institutional settings, the sample was designed to be representative of the study population, not the perpetrator population (therefore no sampling or weighting is done for the undefined universe of perpetrators). Hence, while the data can be analyzed to make statistical inferences about the victimization of U.S. adults residing in non-institutional settings, the NISVS data are incapable of lending support to any national estimates of the perpetrator population, let alone estimates of perpetrators of a specific form of violence (say, rape or being-made-to-penetrate).
E. Combining the estimated past 12-month female rape victims with the estimated past 12-month being-made-to-penetrate male victims cannot give an accurate number of all victims who were either raped or being-made-to-penetrate, even if this combination is consistent with CDC’s definition.
Besides a disagreement with the definitions of the various forms of violence given in the NISVS 2010 Summary Report, this approach of combining the 12-month estimated number of female rape victims with the 12-month estimated number of male victims misses victims in the cells where reliable estimates were not reported due to small cell counts failing to meet statistical reliability criteria. For any combined form of violence, the correct analytical approach for obtaining a national estimate is to start at the raw data level of analysis, if such a creation of a combined construct is established.
So you’re going to need to go back to the drawing board, MRAs.
What is especially distressing here is that the NISVS data could have been the starting point for a serious discussion of male victims of sexual assault by women, which is a real and often overlooked issue. Unfortunately, MRAs have once again poisoned the well by misusing data in an attempt to exaggerate the purported villainy of women and score cheap rhetorical points.
NOTE: A regular in the AgainstMensRights subreddit approached the NISVS researchers with this same question some months back. Unfortunately, the statement they got back from the NISVS contained an incorrect number. The statement I’m quoting here corrects this number and adds more context.
I can provide contact info for the NISVS representative who got back to me on this to any serious (non-troll) person who requests it.
You do realize those things aren’t contradictory, right?
Right, You mistake me though (granted, the syntax is ambiguous), I seek an explanation for the combination, not of the combination.
Given the inherent funniness of being called The Most Disingenuous and Silly from someone on this site, I’d like an explanation from Ally S.
@sosunglittleclodoflclay
All I will say is that, having read some of the arguments between you and some other folks on Tumblr, I feel that I have reasons to say that you’re silly and disingenuous. I don’t feel like citing specific examples because I don’t want to argue about this with you. And if you keep trying to bring it up and ask me for an explanation, I’ll ignore you.
Also, I didn’t say that you were the most disingenuous and silliest. I said you were among the silliest and most disingenuous. That’s a pretty important detail.
I seek an explanation for the combination, not of the combination.
“I can not explain you, sir, for I am not yourself, you see. Also you’re a troll.” –Alice
Well, then I can safely laugh at the situation of being called disingenuous and silly by someone from MANBOOBZ.
Though to return to the important point: (most) Public Libraries have database access for the cost of getting a card.
While you’re looking at the the numbers of male victims, do yourself a favor and look at the the numbers of female victims, how researchers pick and choose methods.
Well, you see, you knowingly make statements that aren’t true, and those statements are also extremely goofy.
Also, you appear to assume that everyone has access to a public library run on the US model, that is open during the hours they have free for research.
That’s also kind of silly.
I apparently missed this guy’s schtick. Someone fill me in on what he’s going on about and why he’s a goof?
Also, regarding the public library, I AM close to one with database access.
The problem is, there are only three computers, and you have to sign up for half-hour slots of time. So you often end up waiting ten, twenty minutes for a computer that you can only use for half an hour–not NEARLY long enough to analyze a scholarly article. Sure, you can try and print some off real quick… if the printer’s working (and it’s often broken). Also, it’s not uncommon for one of the computers to be broken too, so delaying it longer. So sure, I could go, walk half an hour through the snow to the library, wait another twenty minutes for a computer, and then get my half hour of database time and then walk half an hour through the snow back. But that’s a lot of work for a very short amount of time.
What I’m saying is, even in the US, that’s a pretty glib answer.
Whereas emailing a friend with student access who can download PDFs and email them to me requires no one to go anywhere, though I’m not sending my friends on snipe hunts for articles from the 80s.
LBT — Ally and I had been answering mathy questions for hannasoumaki, very top of this page she asked for thoughts on this — http://sosungalittleclodofclay.tumblr.com/post/67174242661 — trolly appears to be the author of it.
LBT – What? Your library has database access, but only on site? I’m sorry, that’s the first I’ve ever heard of such an arrangement. You can’t access it through your account on the library’s site? Can you get a card for the next town over with better access? If you’re going to be looking for research on a regular basis, investing in your own ability is wise. putting in a request to someone to put in a request with their pharm student to get back to you with an email attachments worth of .pdfs is always going to be a awkward arrangement.
Argenti- ~half of those can be pulled right off google scholar last I looked them up, only 6 of the 19 on that particular list are from the 80’s? Did any of you even try looking them up? and y’all call me disingenuous.
Hey smugcreep, not everyone is close to “the next town” or has the means to get there, and yeah, libraries whose databases are only usable on site are hardly unusual.
Um, how is asking someone that you’ve already asked to look at them more awkward if ze’s going to need to email a sorta-ex to get them? My pharm student isn’t some remote friend but someone I need to poke about whether ze’ll be able to be my date for something that requires us share a hotel, an idea we’re both YES PLEASE over. (Damn grad school and residency and scheduling shit!)
As for the ones on google scholar, hannasoumaki implied she was already looking those up.
But hey, thanks for reminding me to poke my pharm student about that hotel thing!
Argenti- Awkward in time and scheduling for others, and volume of work, not you. Good luck with the date!
the rest- Many, many libraries, at least the ones my friends and I’ve used, will sign you up and mail you a card from great distances, they will also let you check out their ebooks, though many balk at mailing their books. Y’all could always actually look into things instead of declaring the one pointing towards free resources a smugcreep. They will even arrange by email for those with phone anxiety. FYI
Also there’s that whole proof of address thing you need to do to get a library card. You know, to prove you live in that district.
@Argenti I’m sorry if my request has disrupted plans with your personal life. You don’t have to have the pharm student look it up if neither of you can spare the time or interest.
I also apologize to sosungaclodofclay if bringing up your post was out of the blue.
Hannasoumaki — nawh, no issue at all, see what you can get off google scholar first though and then I’ll ask about getting PDFs of the rest of the ones you want. Worst case is I get a reply about being busy — we’re still close, the sorta ex thing is because I had to move back in with my parents (went very nuts and then broke), otherwise we’d probably still be involved. Compared to when I asked zir not to tell anyone with the power to commit me that I’d attempted suicide, asking for PDFs is just a small little favor.
Have I mentioned that my pharm student rocks? First person I’ve ever met who trusted me to know what’s best for me even when seriously depressed — might’ve had issue with that if I wasn’t presenting a logical argument, but being treated like a regular person while obviously mentally ill was strange, and wonderful (I’d continue to gush, but TMI!)
at all- Nah, my statcounter was telling me that people were visiting from manboobz, so I checked it out and found people in research trouble, and some flaming hypocrisy, thought I’d engage.
In my experience, libraries are willing to take any address three counties out, and proof of residency is simple as a photo sent via email.
hannasoumaki – nah, it’s alright. The traffic generated has been bland look-and-seer’s no one leaving shit in my askbox
Just so long as it wasn’t your keylogger telling you that.
“Flaming hypocrisy” sounds like some kind of overpriced drink.
Bland Look-And-Seers: The world’s most boring tarot readings!
Katz — to be fair, it’s a built in part of WP.com and an optional add-on for .org — I can see that stuff for the Borg (I imagine you can too)
So unlike Pell’s claim, that one is based in real things that are possible. Sad though if the few of us watching an old thread are a notable hit that ze felt the need to argue with.
Argenti: I know. I do have five WordPress blogs, after all. I’m just teasing.
Whoops! Of course you were, my mistake >.<
@Ally S i hope you don’t mind that I asked schaka about your point about the sample size (if you didn’t want me to do so I’m sorry but I kept it anonymous). His response was that he didnt understand why 16,000 people being a sample size was an issue. According to him, it’s the biggest sample he’s ever heard of. other studies about rape usually have sample sizes less than 2000, but i figured that would be a bit vague, considering the CDC concerns with nationwide populations? Wouldn’t 2000 people be more appropriate for a campus rape study?
Replying for Ally here, but I believe her point was that schaka is acting like 1~ million men reported being made to penetrate in the 12 months prior to the survey, when in reality it was 1.1% of the 16,000~ men surveyed (and I need to check that, idk if Ally accounted for the gender split). Back in 5 with more math, fucking iPad.