Feminists often complain, with considerable justification, that Men’s Rights Activists try to turn every conversation about women’s issues into a game of “what about the men?” You’re talking about female rape victims — well, what about the male rape victims?
The trouble with this strategy, from the point of view of the Men’s Rights Activists anyway, is that this little “gotcha” is much less of a “gotcha” then they’d like it to be.
In the case of rape, for example, feminists are well aware that men are raped as well: the “Don’t Be That Guy” ad campaign, which sent so many MRAs into hysterics, focused on male victims as well as female ones. The emergency room rape advocate organization that a friend of mine volunteers for provides advocacy for victims regardless of gender.
So many MRAs have started playing another game: trying to twist the conversation around in order to cast women as the villains. Rape is a bit tough for them here, since the overwhelming majority of rapists are male. So MRAs talk about the alleged epidemic of female false accusers instead. Or they change the topic entirely and make dead baby jokes (see my post yesterday).
Recently, MRAs have tried a new strategy, seizing on data from The National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey, a massive study conducted in 2010 under the aegis of the Centers for Disease Control, to claim that “40% of rapists are women.”
This is a claim repeated by numerous MRAs on numerous websites; see, for example, this post by A Voice for Men’s Typhonblue on the blog GendErratic. Here’s the same claim made into an “infographic” for the Men’s Rights subreddit.
Trouble is, this claim is flat-out false, based on an incorrect understanding of the NISVS data. But you don’t have to take my word for it: the NISVS researchers themselves say the MRA “interpretation” of their data is based on bad math. It’s not just a question of different definitions of rape: the MRA claims are untenable even if you include men who were “made to penetrate” women as victims of rape (as the MRAs do) rather than as victims of “sexual violence other than rape” (as the NISVS does).
I wrote to the NISVS for clarification of this matter recently, and got back a detailed analysis, straight from the horse’s mouth, of where the MRA arguments went wrong. This is long, and a bit technical, but it’s also pretty definitive, so it’s worth quoting in detail. (I’ve bolded some of the text below for emphasis, and broken some of the larger walls of text into shorter paragraphs.)
It appears that the math used to derive an estimated percentage of female rapists … is flawed. First, we will summarize the assertion and what we perceive to be the basis for the assertion.
According to the web links, the “40% of rapists were women” was derived from these two steps:
1) Combining the estimated number of female rape victims with the estimated number of being-made-to-penetrate male victims in the 12 months prior to the survey to conclude that about 50% of the rape or being-made-to-penetrate victims were males;
2) Multiplying the estimated percentage (79%) of male being-made-to-penetrate victims who reported having had female perpetrators in these victims’ lifetime with the 50% obtained in step 1 to claim that 40% of perpetrators of rape or being-made-to-penetrate were women.
None of these calculations should be used nor can these conclusions be correctly drawn from these calculations.
First the researchers clarify the issue of definition:
To explain, in NISVS we define rape as “any completed or attempted unwanted vaginal (for women), oral, or anal penetration through the use of physical force (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threats to physically harm and includes times when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent.”
We defined sexual violence other than rape to include being made to penetrate someone else, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and non-contact unwanted sexual experiences. Made to penetrate is defined as including “times when the victim was made to, or there was an attempt to make them, sexually penetrate someone without the victim’s consent because the victim was physically forced (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threatened with physical harm, or when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent.”
The difference between “rape” and “being made to penetrate” is that in the definition of rape the victim is penetrated; “made to penetrate” by definition refers to cases where the victim penetrated someone else.
While there are multiple definitions of rape and sexual violence used in the field, CDC, with the help of experts in the field, has developed these specific definitions of rape and other forms of sexual violence (such as made to penetrate, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and non-contact unwanted sexual experiences). We use these definitions to help guide our analytical decisions.
Now the researchers get into the details of the math:
Regarding the specific assertion in question, several aspects of mistreatments of the data and the published estimates occurred in the above derivation:
A. While the percentage of female rape victims and the percentage of male being-made-to-penetrate victims were inferred from the past 12-month estimates by combining two forms of violence, the percentage of perpetrator by sex was taken from reported estimates for males for lifetime (a misuse of the percentage of male victims who reported only female perpetrators in their lifetime being made to penetrate victimization). This mismatch of timeframes is incorrect because the past 12-month victimization cannot be stretched to equate with lifetime victimization. In fact, Table 2.1 and 2.2 of the NISVS 2010 Summary Report clearly report that lifetime rape victimization of females (estimated at 21,840,000) is about 4 times the number of lifetime being made-to-penetrate of males (estimated at 5,451,000).
B. An arithmetic confusion appears when multiplying the two percentages together to conclude that the product is a percentage of all the “rapists”, an undefined perpetrator population. Multiplying the percentage of male victims (as derived in step 1) above) to the percentage of male victims who had female perpetrators cannot give a percentage of perpetrators mathematically because to get a percentage of female rape perpetrators, one must have the total rape perpetrators (the denominator), and the number of female perpetrators of this specific violence (the numerator). Here, neither the numerator nor the denominator was available.
C. Data collected and analyzed for the NISVS 2010 have a “one-to-multiple” structure (where the “one” refers to one victim and the “multiple” refers to multiple perpetrators). While not collected, it is conceivable that any perpetrator could have multiple victims. These multiplicities hinder any attempt to get a percentage of perpetrators such as the one described in steps 1) and 2), and nullify the reverse calculation for obtaining a percent of perpetrators.
For example, consider an example in which a girl has eight red apples while a boy has two green apples. Here, 50% of the children are boys and another 50% are girls. It is not valid to multiply 50% (boy) with 100% (boy’s green apples) to conclude that “50% of all the apples combined are green”. It is clear that only 20% of all the apples are green (two out of 10 apples) when one combines the red and green apples together. Part of the mistake in the deriving of the “50%” stems from a negligence to take into account the inherent multiplicity: a child can have multiple apples (just as a victim can have multiple perpetrators).
D. As the study population is U.S. adults in non-institutional settings, the sample was designed to be representative of the study population, not the perpetrator population (therefore no sampling or weighting is done for the undefined universe of perpetrators). Hence, while the data can be analyzed to make statistical inferences about the victimization of U.S. adults residing in non-institutional settings, the NISVS data are incapable of lending support to any national estimates of the perpetrator population, let alone estimates of perpetrators of a specific form of violence (say, rape or being-made-to-penetrate).
E. Combining the estimated past 12-month female rape victims with the estimated past 12-month being-made-to-penetrate male victims cannot give an accurate number of all victims who were either raped or being-made-to-penetrate, even if this combination is consistent with CDC’s definition.
Besides a disagreement with the definitions of the various forms of violence given in the NISVS 2010 Summary Report, this approach of combining the 12-month estimated number of female rape victims with the 12-month estimated number of male victims misses victims in the cells where reliable estimates were not reported due to small cell counts failing to meet statistical reliability criteria. For any combined form of violence, the correct analytical approach for obtaining a national estimate is to start at the raw data level of analysis, if such a creation of a combined construct is established.
So you’re going to need to go back to the drawing board, MRAs.
What is especially distressing here is that the NISVS data could have been the starting point for a serious discussion of male victims of sexual assault by women, which is a real and often overlooked issue. Unfortunately, MRAs have once again poisoned the well by misusing data in an attempt to exaggerate the purported villainy of women and score cheap rhetorical points.
NOTE: A regular in the AgainstMensRights subreddit approached the NISVS researchers with this same question some months back. Unfortunately, the statement they got back from the NISVS contained an incorrect number. The statement I’m quoting here corrects this number and adds more context.
I can provide contact info for the NISVS representative who got back to me on this to any serious (non-troll) person who requests it.
That’s totally Alex having a polite, measured, rational discussion with a person who has an opposing view. Mmhmm.
Seems like Alex’s ‘being polite’ phase tends to be very short-lived.
Is Shieldwife a person? That sounds like some serious white nationalist bullshit.
You’re very welcome, although I am afraid I didn’t get off home base because of a brain fart. Sorry.
*boggles*
That is certainly an idea that exists, I suppose.
Falconer – If I ever get into a car accident, I’m totally blaming the epicanthic fold. Wonder if the DMV would let me off…
😛
That … is just jaw-droppingly fucking stupid.
I don’t suppose it occurred to him that people sticking to their own “races” would also presumably look the same, and therefore it’s even more incestuous when you’ve a smaller breeding pool!
Falconer, you got any grey-green eyes in that box?
Falconer, I know I already sent you after them once today, but do you by chance have my eyes, again?
@Argenti, hello again and I apologise for not getting to you after so long (I was on medical leave of some sort), and picking up this comment thread even after 2 weeks. I’m sorry if this isn’t good etiquette online, as I remember someone reminding me of that a while back here.
I’m still looking over CDC stats right now but I think I might have more questions to ask by this weekend ot so. Sorry for bothering anyone who sees this and happy thanksgiving to you.
Happy thanksgiving to you as well, and I don’t mind stats questions, though I obviously can’t speak for anyone else here. (Well, besides pecunium, who’ll surely just shrug)
@Argenti thank you. I am very ashamed to admit I copied and pasted your and ally s’ critiques to the tumblr user schaka, who provided me w/ a better link of the study when I asked. I have actually done this last time as well while on anonymous mode and I apologize profusely; I have not been in a good physical condition to be studying much but this is still awful and dishonest of me. Please forgive me of my laziness and deceit and i understand if you are very put off w/ me.
here is the response i received schaka.tumblr.com/post/68358437426/same-anon although I was unsure of the exact proportions of the sample sizes he was referring to.
Again, I’m sorry to you and Ally S.
I appreciate the apology, hannasoumaki. I want to be informed before anyone shares stuff I say with MRAs, egalitarians, etc. because I don’t want to run into the possibility of being trolled on Man Boobz, my DW journal, etc.
Anyway, I’m glad to see his response. One of the few MRAs/egalitarians/anti-feminists willing to not carelessly parrot the Widom & Morris study.
I’m not particularly concerned as I have a stalker ex and thus all my online shit is on lockdown already, but if you’re going to copy and paste from here, either ask first (preferable) or at least cite it to “an anonymous commenter at manboobz” or such. I’m okay with the latter, Ally would prefer to be asked it seems, so asking is probably the safer bet.
As for his response, what Ally said! Good to see a thoughtful reply. As for this —
“I’m still very interested in explanations for the disparity in lifetime and 12 months, because the theory that women started excessively raping men within the last (few) years seems very unlikely to me.”
(And you can cite me on this one if you want)
We can ponder explanations all day, but really, all the 12 month data does is provide a “snapshot” of those 12 months. Without data from another year on the rate of men being made to penetrate it’s impossible to say if those 12 months were months where many more men got raped than is usual, or if the weirdness is in the lifetime data. As it stands all we can be entirely sure of is “that’s an interesting bit of weirdness, anyone care to repeat the study so we can figure out wtf is up there?”. Well, that, and that we still can’t comment on how many women committed rape or what percentage of rapists, over those 12 months, were women — the problem of applying lifetime data to 12 month data stands regardless wtf is up with that disparity.
Also, we just need more studies of men being forced to penetrate in general, a broad survey like this one isn’t going to parse out the sorts of things we know about female rape victims (e.g. they’re mostly younger women, tend to be raped by people they know, how common marital rape is, etc). The question whether that disparity is a stable one, or just occurred the once, is important though, if it was just the once then the questions change to why it was so much higher for that year and if a repeat occurrence can be prevented, whereas if it is stable, then those questions of whether men don’t consider it rape, etc, come into play.
@Argenti and Ally, thank you for being so gracious with me, I cannot stress it enough. Argenti I’m sorry about that, I sympathize with what you are going though. (though, I’m ure that doesn’t help very much)
So here is what he said after I cited you; schaka.tumblr.com/post/69472793946/hello-again-regarding-your-last-reply-i I apologize that it’s so late and you can get to this whenever you like.
I hope this isn’t too off topic either, but have anyone of you read Chaos and Fractals by Peitgan? Would you recommend this to an avid maths person?
And we’re past the point of logic. I have a policy about not arguing with “we can’t know, therefore my assumptions must be correct”, particularly in reply to “MAOR STUDIES PLZ”. It’ said waste of brain cells, he’s convinced of something, can’t seem to articulate what, beyond that there’s some CDC cover up, and won’t even concede that we need more studies to see wtf is going on. There’s no arguing with that. Science standard for weird or unpredicted results? Retest it.
What’s he trying to argue anyways? That more men were raped before those 12 months than admitted to it? Well, first you’d need another 12 month snapshot to see if the variance holds (if both numbers increase, men are getting raped more, if the yearly data stays 1/5th~ the lifetime! something is up with why men who previously said they were raped now aren’t saying that). Then, based on that, you can figure out where to go with wtf you need to study…but I said that in different words and got “does this person know…?!!?” >.<
I give up, if my position that we need more data is met with that sort of outrage, there's no point in attempting a science based discussion. And I'd prefer not to be quoted as I'm just repeating myself at this point anyways.
As for the book(?), I haven't read it, so I can't help you there, sorry.
Adding to what Argenti said, schaka doesn’t seem to understand that the actual total sample size is ~16,000, not a number in the millions. And they also don’t understand the effect of bias due to smaller sample size.
Ugh, this person is just as tedious and annoying as every other “egalitarian” out there. hannasoumaki, I don’t think this person is worth arguing with.
Thank you for your insights, Ally and Argenti. I hope you are well and im not disturbing anyone right now, but I don’t want to impose on you with too many questions during holidays. I understand your frustrations with the previous argument, but in regard of more studies that will give us a bigger view of mtp rape will these be suitable sources? http://sosungalittleclodofclay.tumblr.com/post/67174242661
Someone else Im talking to on tumblr (not schaka) pointed me to these studies, but some of these are hard to find (beyond the abstracts).
happy holidays to everyone, and I noticed that the personal thread is frequented. It seems uncomfortable for me to add paltry condolences but I’m sorry that any of you are going through rough problems especially during a time for joy.
@hannasoumaki: Hi there, Hanna, and I hope you’re doing well this holiday season. 🙂
hannasoumaki, that person you linked to just listed a bunch of studies without any links to the sources. Unless we have the actual studies, we can’t really respond to any conclusions he makes with those studies. By the way, sosunglittleclodofclay is probably one of the silliest, most disingenuous MRAs on Tumblr. I don’t think he’s worth your time.
@ alternatesteve90 hi. Thank you, and I hope you have a great holiday too.
@ Ally S, I am aware of this, yes, which is why I’m hoping to look these studies up on some databases (maybe I’ll ask the person who provided them for the sources if it’s dead end). Do you think jstor and google scholar is a good start, and maybe do you have any other suggestions?
Unfortunately, I don’t have any suggestions besides the ones you have. =/ I hate how these journal articles are so inaccessible most of the time. Unless you’re willing to buy the articles or you can find some other source, you’re probably out of luck. Sorry about that.
My pharm student is still, well, a student. So I can sorta borrow library access. I’m not going to ask zir to procure that many articles when so many are 15+ years old (a couple are 25 years old!) Pick out a handful of the newer ones that seem relevant and I’ll ask for PDFs.
@ Argenti, thank you for your offer. I also found something and I’d like to tell you about this because it made me remember your situation with your ex. this might endanger you and I don’t know if I should tell you on this thread or on the personal stuff thread. please tell me w/e you are comfortable with.
Best way to contact me privately is probably clicking my nym and then the contact an admin tab over there. If you mean the gaslighting narcissist though, I’m 500 miles away, most he can do is digitally harass me (which would be really unwise considering he got arrested for sex acts with a minor involving the use of computers, should prolly refrain from proving he can’t be trusted with tech)
Happy new year’s to you all.
Most municipal Public Libraries have database access, go get a card and look them up.
How the hell am I both the ‘silliest’ AND ‘most disingenuous’?