Feminists often complain, with considerable justification, that Men’s Rights Activists try to turn every conversation about women’s issues into a game of “what about the men?” You’re talking about female rape victims — well, what about the male rape victims?
The trouble with this strategy, from the point of view of the Men’s Rights Activists anyway, is that this little “gotcha” is much less of a “gotcha” then they’d like it to be.
In the case of rape, for example, feminists are well aware that men are raped as well: the “Don’t Be That Guy” ad campaign, which sent so many MRAs into hysterics, focused on male victims as well as female ones. The emergency room rape advocate organization that a friend of mine volunteers for provides advocacy for victims regardless of gender.
So many MRAs have started playing another game: trying to twist the conversation around in order to cast women as the villains. Rape is a bit tough for them here, since the overwhelming majority of rapists are male. So MRAs talk about the alleged epidemic of female false accusers instead. Or they change the topic entirely and make dead baby jokes (see my post yesterday).
Recently, MRAs have tried a new strategy, seizing on data from The National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey, a massive study conducted in 2010 under the aegis of the Centers for Disease Control, to claim that “40% of rapists are women.”
This is a claim repeated by numerous MRAs on numerous websites; see, for example, this post by A Voice for Men’s Typhonblue on the blog GendErratic. Here’s the same claim made into an “infographic” for the Men’s Rights subreddit.
Trouble is, this claim is flat-out false, based on an incorrect understanding of the NISVS data. But you don’t have to take my word for it: the NISVS researchers themselves say the MRA “interpretation” of their data is based on bad math. It’s not just a question of different definitions of rape: the MRA claims are untenable even if you include men who were “made to penetrate” women as victims of rape (as the MRAs do) rather than as victims of “sexual violence other than rape” (as the NISVS does).
I wrote to the NISVS for clarification of this matter recently, and got back a detailed analysis, straight from the horse’s mouth, of where the MRA arguments went wrong. This is long, and a bit technical, but it’s also pretty definitive, so it’s worth quoting in detail. (I’ve bolded some of the text below for emphasis, and broken some of the larger walls of text into shorter paragraphs.)
It appears that the math used to derive an estimated percentage of female rapists … is flawed. First, we will summarize the assertion and what we perceive to be the basis for the assertion.
According to the web links, the “40% of rapists were women” was derived from these two steps:
1) Combining the estimated number of female rape victims with the estimated number of being-made-to-penetrate male victims in the 12 months prior to the survey to conclude that about 50% of the rape or being-made-to-penetrate victims were males;
2) Multiplying the estimated percentage (79%) of male being-made-to-penetrate victims who reported having had female perpetrators in these victims’ lifetime with the 50% obtained in step 1 to claim that 40% of perpetrators of rape or being-made-to-penetrate were women.
None of these calculations should be used nor can these conclusions be correctly drawn from these calculations.
First the researchers clarify the issue of definition:
To explain, in NISVS we define rape as “any completed or attempted unwanted vaginal (for women), oral, or anal penetration through the use of physical force (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threats to physically harm and includes times when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent.”
We defined sexual violence other than rape to include being made to penetrate someone else, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and non-contact unwanted sexual experiences. Made to penetrate is defined as including “times when the victim was made to, or there was an attempt to make them, sexually penetrate someone without the victim’s consent because the victim was physically forced (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threatened with physical harm, or when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent.”
The difference between “rape” and “being made to penetrate” is that in the definition of rape the victim is penetrated; “made to penetrate” by definition refers to cases where the victim penetrated someone else.
While there are multiple definitions of rape and sexual violence used in the field, CDC, with the help of experts in the field, has developed these specific definitions of rape and other forms of sexual violence (such as made to penetrate, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and non-contact unwanted sexual experiences). We use these definitions to help guide our analytical decisions.
Now the researchers get into the details of the math:
Regarding the specific assertion in question, several aspects of mistreatments of the data and the published estimates occurred in the above derivation:
A. While the percentage of female rape victims and the percentage of male being-made-to-penetrate victims were inferred from the past 12-month estimates by combining two forms of violence, the percentage of perpetrator by sex was taken from reported estimates for males for lifetime (a misuse of the percentage of male victims who reported only female perpetrators in their lifetime being made to penetrate victimization). This mismatch of timeframes is incorrect because the past 12-month victimization cannot be stretched to equate with lifetime victimization. In fact, Table 2.1 and 2.2 of the NISVS 2010 Summary Report clearly report that lifetime rape victimization of females (estimated at 21,840,000) is about 4 times the number of lifetime being made-to-penetrate of males (estimated at 5,451,000).
B. An arithmetic confusion appears when multiplying the two percentages together to conclude that the product is a percentage of all the “rapists”, an undefined perpetrator population. Multiplying the percentage of male victims (as derived in step 1) above) to the percentage of male victims who had female perpetrators cannot give a percentage of perpetrators mathematically because to get a percentage of female rape perpetrators, one must have the total rape perpetrators (the denominator), and the number of female perpetrators of this specific violence (the numerator). Here, neither the numerator nor the denominator was available.
C. Data collected and analyzed for the NISVS 2010 have a “one-to-multiple” structure (where the “one” refers to one victim and the “multiple” refers to multiple perpetrators). While not collected, it is conceivable that any perpetrator could have multiple victims. These multiplicities hinder any attempt to get a percentage of perpetrators such as the one described in steps 1) and 2), and nullify the reverse calculation for obtaining a percent of perpetrators.
For example, consider an example in which a girl has eight red apples while a boy has two green apples. Here, 50% of the children are boys and another 50% are girls. It is not valid to multiply 50% (boy) with 100% (boy’s green apples) to conclude that “50% of all the apples combined are green”. It is clear that only 20% of all the apples are green (two out of 10 apples) when one combines the red and green apples together. Part of the mistake in the deriving of the “50%” stems from a negligence to take into account the inherent multiplicity: a child can have multiple apples (just as a victim can have multiple perpetrators).
D. As the study population is U.S. adults in non-institutional settings, the sample was designed to be representative of the study population, not the perpetrator population (therefore no sampling or weighting is done for the undefined universe of perpetrators). Hence, while the data can be analyzed to make statistical inferences about the victimization of U.S. adults residing in non-institutional settings, the NISVS data are incapable of lending support to any national estimates of the perpetrator population, let alone estimates of perpetrators of a specific form of violence (say, rape or being-made-to-penetrate).
E. Combining the estimated past 12-month female rape victims with the estimated past 12-month being-made-to-penetrate male victims cannot give an accurate number of all victims who were either raped or being-made-to-penetrate, even if this combination is consistent with CDC’s definition.
Besides a disagreement with the definitions of the various forms of violence given in the NISVS 2010 Summary Report, this approach of combining the 12-month estimated number of female rape victims with the 12-month estimated number of male victims misses victims in the cells where reliable estimates were not reported due to small cell counts failing to meet statistical reliability criteria. For any combined form of violence, the correct analytical approach for obtaining a national estimate is to start at the raw data level of analysis, if such a creation of a combined construct is established.
So you’re going to need to go back to the drawing board, MRAs.
What is especially distressing here is that the NISVS data could have been the starting point for a serious discussion of male victims of sexual assault by women, which is a real and often overlooked issue. Unfortunately, MRAs have once again poisoned the well by misusing data in an attempt to exaggerate the purported villainy of women and score cheap rhetorical points.
NOTE: A regular in the AgainstMensRights subreddit approached the NISVS researchers with this same question some months back. Unfortunately, the statement they got back from the NISVS contained an incorrect number. The statement I’m quoting here corrects this number and adds more context.
I can provide contact info for the NISVS representative who got back to me on this to any serious (non-troll) person who requests it.
It was 37 when I woke up today. I was covered in cats. It’s kind of fun when it gets this cold, but I’m glad it won’t last.
It’s cold here. Gonna get up to 36°F or so.
I probably shouldn’t say this, but it’s supposed to get up to the mid-80s here today. WTF, November?
Pecunium, don’t remind me. I’m staying indoors and bundled up. I’ve so far left my sauna for coffee and that’s it. (90~ gallons of water at 80°~ keeps it nice and warm in here)
I’m loving this tiny cold snap we’re having in TX. I don’t get to bundle up very often.
I’m getting a wisdom tooth out too soon. In a couple of weeks. With local anesthesia. Has anyone here had that done before? How long did it take you to recover? I’m a bit nervous because the appointment is the Monday of Thanksgiving week. Do you think I will feel normal again by Thanksgiving?
I’ve had a couple yanked. It took me about a week to fully recover, but then my teeth LOVE to get the dry socket.
You should be fine by Turkey Day.
Grumpycatisagirl — I was gnawing on pizza crust three days later. And didn’t touch the prescription painkillers, advil was enough. My brother had his done not long ago and other than being Complainy McComplainy Pants for a day, was fine.
So, probably? Idk on turkey, since that requires molars, but mashed potatoes and cranberry sauce and all that? Should be no issue.
Thanks for the advice, guys. I’m vegetarian anyway so turkey doesn’t figure into my worrying at all. But I’m traveling by car (not driving myself) for several hours and will still be able to want to eat pie and stuff. The dentist said travel should be fine by Thursday morning but my mom got me worrying about being swollen and stuff when I told her when my appointment was.
Follow all the aftercare instructions and you should be fine.
Thanks.
And excuse me for the “still be able to want to eat pie and stuff” phrase. Ha ha. Strike that. Reverse it.
Weather … we’ve just had about 36 hours of rain, complete with a leaks in the roof at work and at home. Not that I’m complaining (apart from the leak at home); the longer it stays cool, the better. It’s been all over the place this spring. Tuesday’s forecast is 27C and Wednesday’s is 15C.
Excuse you for wanting to eat pie and stuff?!? No way. 😉
So basically everyone else should be able to take a bit of confrontation and criticism, but if anyone speaks to precious baby Alex in a confrontational way or criticizes him he has public meltdowns at Safeway?
Hypocrite, heal thyself.
Pie and stuff is the best part of thanksgiving.
Ice cream, otoh, is entirely acceptable and advisable 🙂
@Cassandra
The Atheism+ forum-induced crying jag at the supermarket kind of sticks with me as well. I’m sure he was a real ray of sunshine when he furiously denounced feminism on those forums, poor fella.
His intentions were clearly good.
Anyone here want to go to an MRA board, read up on their rules and then bring up some points of disagreement? I’m sure it would be all-around good time.
It is a bit odd if the thing that makes someone lose it is people not thinking they’re clever and interesting, and basically not wanting to engage with them, whereas death threats are no biggy.
Those are the kind of people where I always want to say “sorry, sunshine, but not everyone is going to like you”.
Eh, if he went to Less Wrong I can see it happening. I mean, that place makes pecunium and I seethe, there’s a reason my dear Mr. Mango has nicknamed him Yudcultsky.
Bullshit! “Persistently tedious” is right there!
The crying jag at the supermarket’s with me too. Who does that? I’m so sure he followed all their forum rules.
Although I’m not going to lie: I find the idea of Alex sobbing as he pushes his cart through the grocery store because he visited a blog and people weren’t nice to him to be almost too charming for words.
Yeah, crying at the supermarket is definitely the best thing about him.
I’m seeing him as a certain blog herpes crying in his trolley now. ::snickers::
Ha, here’s a reference to him being such a sweet fellow elsewhere:
http://www.bluethenation.com/2013/09/26/dont-think-the-mens-rights-movement-is-misogynistic-think-again/