Feminists often complain, with considerable justification, that Men’s Rights Activists try to turn every conversation about women’s issues into a game of “what about the men?” You’re talking about female rape victims — well, what about the male rape victims?
The trouble with this strategy, from the point of view of the Men’s Rights Activists anyway, is that this little “gotcha” is much less of a “gotcha” then they’d like it to be.
In the case of rape, for example, feminists are well aware that men are raped as well: the “Don’t Be That Guy” ad campaign, which sent so many MRAs into hysterics, focused on male victims as well as female ones. The emergency room rape advocate organization that a friend of mine volunteers for provides advocacy for victims regardless of gender.
So many MRAs have started playing another game: trying to twist the conversation around in order to cast women as the villains. Rape is a bit tough for them here, since the overwhelming majority of rapists are male. So MRAs talk about the alleged epidemic of female false accusers instead. Or they change the topic entirely and make dead baby jokes (see my post yesterday).
Recently, MRAs have tried a new strategy, seizing on data from The National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey, a massive study conducted in 2010 under the aegis of the Centers for Disease Control, to claim that “40% of rapists are women.”
This is a claim repeated by numerous MRAs on numerous websites; see, for example, this post by A Voice for Men’s Typhonblue on the blog GendErratic. Here’s the same claim made into an “infographic” for the Men’s Rights subreddit.
Trouble is, this claim is flat-out false, based on an incorrect understanding of the NISVS data. But you don’t have to take my word for it: the NISVS researchers themselves say the MRA “interpretation” of their data is based on bad math. It’s not just a question of different definitions of rape: the MRA claims are untenable even if you include men who were “made to penetrate” women as victims of rape (as the MRAs do) rather than as victims of “sexual violence other than rape” (as the NISVS does).
I wrote to the NISVS for clarification of this matter recently, and got back a detailed analysis, straight from the horse’s mouth, of where the MRA arguments went wrong. This is long, and a bit technical, but it’s also pretty definitive, so it’s worth quoting in detail. (I’ve bolded some of the text below for emphasis, and broken some of the larger walls of text into shorter paragraphs.)
It appears that the math used to derive an estimated percentage of female rapists … is flawed. First, we will summarize the assertion and what we perceive to be the basis for the assertion.
According to the web links, the “40% of rapists were women” was derived from these two steps:
1) Combining the estimated number of female rape victims with the estimated number of being-made-to-penetrate male victims in the 12 months prior to the survey to conclude that about 50% of the rape or being-made-to-penetrate victims were males;
2) Multiplying the estimated percentage (79%) of male being-made-to-penetrate victims who reported having had female perpetrators in these victims’ lifetime with the 50% obtained in step 1 to claim that 40% of perpetrators of rape or being-made-to-penetrate were women.
None of these calculations should be used nor can these conclusions be correctly drawn from these calculations.
First the researchers clarify the issue of definition:
To explain, in NISVS we define rape as “any completed or attempted unwanted vaginal (for women), oral, or anal penetration through the use of physical force (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threats to physically harm and includes times when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent.”
We defined sexual violence other than rape to include being made to penetrate someone else, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and non-contact unwanted sexual experiences. Made to penetrate is defined as including “times when the victim was made to, or there was an attempt to make them, sexually penetrate someone without the victim’s consent because the victim was physically forced (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threatened with physical harm, or when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent.”
The difference between “rape” and “being made to penetrate” is that in the definition of rape the victim is penetrated; “made to penetrate” by definition refers to cases where the victim penetrated someone else.
While there are multiple definitions of rape and sexual violence used in the field, CDC, with the help of experts in the field, has developed these specific definitions of rape and other forms of sexual violence (such as made to penetrate, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and non-contact unwanted sexual experiences). We use these definitions to help guide our analytical decisions.
Now the researchers get into the details of the math:
Regarding the specific assertion in question, several aspects of mistreatments of the data and the published estimates occurred in the above derivation:
A. While the percentage of female rape victims and the percentage of male being-made-to-penetrate victims were inferred from the past 12-month estimates by combining two forms of violence, the percentage of perpetrator by sex was taken from reported estimates for males for lifetime (a misuse of the percentage of male victims who reported only female perpetrators in their lifetime being made to penetrate victimization). This mismatch of timeframes is incorrect because the past 12-month victimization cannot be stretched to equate with lifetime victimization. In fact, Table 2.1 and 2.2 of the NISVS 2010 Summary Report clearly report that lifetime rape victimization of females (estimated at 21,840,000) is about 4 times the number of lifetime being made-to-penetrate of males (estimated at 5,451,000).
B. An arithmetic confusion appears when multiplying the two percentages together to conclude that the product is a percentage of all the “rapists”, an undefined perpetrator population. Multiplying the percentage of male victims (as derived in step 1) above) to the percentage of male victims who had female perpetrators cannot give a percentage of perpetrators mathematically because to get a percentage of female rape perpetrators, one must have the total rape perpetrators (the denominator), and the number of female perpetrators of this specific violence (the numerator). Here, neither the numerator nor the denominator was available.
C. Data collected and analyzed for the NISVS 2010 have a “one-to-multiple” structure (where the “one” refers to one victim and the “multiple” refers to multiple perpetrators). While not collected, it is conceivable that any perpetrator could have multiple victims. These multiplicities hinder any attempt to get a percentage of perpetrators such as the one described in steps 1) and 2), and nullify the reverse calculation for obtaining a percent of perpetrators.
For example, consider an example in which a girl has eight red apples while a boy has two green apples. Here, 50% of the children are boys and another 50% are girls. It is not valid to multiply 50% (boy) with 100% (boy’s green apples) to conclude that “50% of all the apples combined are green”. It is clear that only 20% of all the apples are green (two out of 10 apples) when one combines the red and green apples together. Part of the mistake in the deriving of the “50%” stems from a negligence to take into account the inherent multiplicity: a child can have multiple apples (just as a victim can have multiple perpetrators).
D. As the study population is U.S. adults in non-institutional settings, the sample was designed to be representative of the study population, not the perpetrator population (therefore no sampling or weighting is done for the undefined universe of perpetrators). Hence, while the data can be analyzed to make statistical inferences about the victimization of U.S. adults residing in non-institutional settings, the NISVS data are incapable of lending support to any national estimates of the perpetrator population, let alone estimates of perpetrators of a specific form of violence (say, rape or being-made-to-penetrate).
E. Combining the estimated past 12-month female rape victims with the estimated past 12-month being-made-to-penetrate male victims cannot give an accurate number of all victims who were either raped or being-made-to-penetrate, even if this combination is consistent with CDC’s definition.
Besides a disagreement with the definitions of the various forms of violence given in the NISVS 2010 Summary Report, this approach of combining the 12-month estimated number of female rape victims with the 12-month estimated number of male victims misses victims in the cells where reliable estimates were not reported due to small cell counts failing to meet statistical reliability criteria. For any combined form of violence, the correct analytical approach for obtaining a national estimate is to start at the raw data level of analysis, if such a creation of a combined construct is established.
So you’re going to need to go back to the drawing board, MRAs.
What is especially distressing here is that the NISVS data could have been the starting point for a serious discussion of male victims of sexual assault by women, which is a real and often overlooked issue. Unfortunately, MRAs have once again poisoned the well by misusing data in an attempt to exaggerate the purported villainy of women and score cheap rhetorical points.
NOTE: A regular in the AgainstMensRights subreddit approached the NISVS researchers with this same question some months back. Unfortunately, the statement they got back from the NISVS contained an incorrect number. The statement I’m quoting here corrects this number and adds more context.
I can provide contact info for the NISVS representative who got back to me on this to any serious (non-troll) person who requests it.
I’m noticing a trend with this “yeah, well, it’s your job to disprove (insert bigoted idea here)” in MRA circles recently.
Uh, yeah, I’m going to need to have black people prove they are equal to white people, yep.
/MRAthink
Yeah. Sarah Palin compared Obama-care to slavery today on CNN. When the interviewer suggested that her comparison was insensitive to actual slavery, she complained that political correctness was a brutal force that made simple folk like her scared about speaking the truth.
Fucking bubble-head. Crack a history book every once in while so you don’t seem like a complete moron.
She was on the Today show yesterday (I was in the Privileged Guest spot outside, veteran’s day). When she came out to make the photo op I turned my back. I wasn’t at the rail, so it wasn’t so she didn’t know, but the vets I was with were also sneering at her.
He’s also of the opinion that men are the greatest victims of gendered slurs (because f*****t) and that all people were oppressed in the past, so there is no point comparing that, and in the present it’s all “first world problems for women” and has been for at least modern memory. What else did I see… Oh yeah, he implied he did something violent to a woman who didn’t want to let him go his own way, and he has, “no regrets”.
This is the biggest issue I have with the MRM, that it’s giving violent people a support network that keeps telling them that their desire to hurt people, or the fact that they’ve actually done so, is OK.
Sorry to jump in here when I’ve had nothing to do with this thread but I’ve stupidly been reading Alex Fucking Reynard’s:
“Criticism please, on an essay about ‘drunk people can’t consent.'”
Big fucking mistake. Yeah, his crap isn’t exactly unexpected, but still.
@Alex Fucking Reynard.
What a wanking piece of shit you are.
You sit in your sad little fucking life, planning vast reams of fucking text, so you can wander round the internet telling feminists your fucked up ‘opinion’.
You disingenuous piece of shit. People hate you because you are a turd, a waste of human skin, a fucking oxygen thief.
And fuck yeah I called you a fucker, please, please cry me a fucking river!
This specimen sounds like he’s due for the banhammer already, with this history.
Holy Crap Monkeys, Alex Raymond went fully nuclear in only five posts, albeit five impossibly long posts. Let’s stroll down memory lane.
First Post: You give a point-by-point critique of David’s original post, without bothering to read any previous comments. Guess what, we addressed most of those issues in the comments. Seriously, I’m not kidding, we discussed why made-to-penetrate should have been classified as rape and the CDC’s response to questions about the NISVS statistics at length. We also discussed the DBTG rape awareness campaign (aka seven posters in Edmonton, Canada) endlessly as well, only because AVFM can’t stop freaking out over them.
Second Post: You discuss your personal relationship with HTML in detail and then use a homophobic slur, which unsurprisingly does not aid civil discussion. A little advice, don’t immediately bust out offensive slurs when talking to strangers, even to make a point.
You again discuss MTP and the NISVS data, while repelling all efforts to get you to read the rest of this thread, even though it is a veritable treasure trove of our opinions on those very topics.
Third Post: Is the most impossibly longest of your five impossibly long posts. You start off by saying you’re not going to read any of the earlier comments which address your main points, BUT you will vigorously defend your use of a homophobic slur, because that’s productive.
Then you flail about, arguing all sorts of things that I’m not going to parse through, because I don’t have the time to. (See what I did there?)
Fourth Post: It’s a humongous blob of a post that ate half the town. You may have an viable point to make about male rape victims, but I can’t make it through the thicket of a thousand references. I noticed you bring up the Toronto Rally and the counter-protest which, sad to say, does not help clarify things.
Five Post: A complex, lengthy flounce that swings from you telling the board off to a sob story about Atheism+ forums.
Guess what, dumping a big bucket of endless bullet points on peoples’ heads doesn’t constitute conversation. It’s weirdly fascinating, I’ll give you that.
I meant “Fifth Post”, if anyone made it that far.
Once again I have to wonder if this is how people like Alex interact with others in meatspace. Are they that bore who everyone avoids at parties?
Brooked: Being too kind by half, I read them all (ok, it’s also self-defense, so he can’t slip something past me that merits response, dismissal, or insult).
@Pecunium
I believed that his passionate advocacy for male rape victims might be for real, but after reading some of the shit he wrote on Reddit, I firmly believe he can officially go fuck his rape-apologist self all night long.
@Ophelia
He can’t stop writing about how victim-blaming is a grand moral gesture.
[–]AlexReynard 1 point 29 days ago
The reason it hits a nerve with people is because rape is a horrible thing to go through, and the last thing a damaged, recovering victim wants to hear is “if you had had the common sense to do this, then you wouldn’t be in this horrible position right now”, even if it’s true.
I remember being a kid and times when I’d break something expensive because I hadn’t been careful with it. In that moment, I knew I’d screwed up. I knew it was my own fault because I knew I should have been more careful. And then I’d feel worse when I was punished for it. But should my mother have let me get off scot-free because I already felt bad about it? I don’t think so. Because that shame I felt was so awful, I didn’t want to feel it again. So I learned to be more careful next time.
Shielding victims from all blame and all responsibility is encouraging them to never learn from what happened to them. It’s unhealthy. As much as shame hurts, it exists for a reason.
Unfair victim-blaming deserves to be condemned. But condemning all advice given to rape victims is just as harmful. If you tell a victim it was 100% not their fault, when actually there were things they could have been reasonably expected to do to avoid what happened, means you’re ensuring they will not learn to not repeat their mistakes. You’re setting them up to be victimized again.
For the love of all that’s holy, stop discussing rape on the internet. You are very bad at it.
Not only is he a moral reprobate and a complete asshat, he offers “Seven Samurai” and “Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon” as examples of ‘overrated movies’, so his taste in movies is beyond help as well.
Block quote fail.
His words:
My response: For the love of all that’s holy, stop discussing rape on the internet. You are very bad at it.
How’s that for a failed analogy? Or maybe he really thinks the rapists are the victims, since in his little tale of smashing something as a kid, he’s the perpertrator, and the “victim” is an inanimate object.
He may be saying more than he intended about his real attitudes.
Anyone tasteless enough not to appreciate The Seven Samurai has officially lost their right to offer public commentary on, well, anything really. It’s like admitting that your favorite band is Nickelback. Why should anyone care about your opinion after that?
I…that’s…fuck. I can’t even…
Noptopus.
I loved this one. given the way he acted:
He like to be challenged.
When challenged, when taken at his word, and dealt with as an equal… he folds. To take his analogy, he’s got a glass jaw.
He’s also clueless about how to argue. He got some decent feedback on some one of his essays on rape, and he didn’t like it.
So agrees this would make it work better, but doing that is kinda pointless, because he doesn’t think anyone should think that victim blaming and, “well you got drunk, just deal with the consequences” is something anyone could see as condoning rape.
Which is all the funnier when one see this:
Not much for self-awareness, is he?
Aw, man, work’s been a bear and I miss this? I’m so behind on everything, poo.
Jesus Christ, this is PRECIOUS. He has us confused with AVfM, we don’t dox here. Alex, we just mock you to your face until you meltdown or fuck off, whichever comes first.
“He has us confused with AVfM, we don’t dox here. ”
Which is really too bad, I’d like to know which asshat thought posting my legal first name on twitter, directed @ me and thus hidden, was supposed to do more than make me laugh. Precious.
Guys, if the main Feminist Borg starts getting this shit, just mark it unread and leave it, unless you want to tackle it that is.
“cartman is at least funny when he does it.”
In a good part because he’s fictional, and we can laugh at him safe in the knowledge that he can do no real harm.
(@hellkell, how are the toes?)
@everyone, Based on a bunch of things, David has now banned Alex. He just announced it in the wrong thread. (It’s in the thread about Nolan falsely accusing a woman of making false accusations.)
Toes are healing up. I ditched the boot the doc gave and started wearing regular shoes because I didn’t want my foot to get too used to being in the position the boot had it in. So far so good, it’s really only that fourth toe that gives me any trouble.
I have to have a wisdom tooth yanked on Friday, joy. I think I’ll call my eventual one-woman show about my seemingly never-ending dental BS “My BBQ Was Cancelled Because My Grill Was Busted.”
Yeah… Alex is complicated. All in all (from looking at his reddit history) he had a rough time, and fell in with the wrong crowd. I see some parallels to someone else who was banned, but with a better support network, and more self-awareness/integrity.
If he had a but less anger, and hadn’t found the MRM he would probably be on the right side of a lot of issues. But he has this udnerlying anger (and some serious issues with racism; he is fond of JAQing off to bury assumptions in his questions, so that one has to sort of accept the underlying premise).
I really think that we didn’t let him get away with that is what made his meltdown so dramatic. He’s much better contained on reddit, where that sort of shit is tolerated/backstopped. Even when he got called on his scientific racism he had other people chime in to treat his query as a question worth talking about.
It’s interesting to see the difference in culture. There are ways in which we are less tolerant. All in all I think it’s to the good (because what we aren’t tolerating is hateful crap and bullshit) and people who have been in actual echo chambers (Spearhead, LGF, AVfM, etc.) don’t have the tools to face detailed opposition, much less cope with a group of people who are engaging in the topics, and refusing to let logical failure be treated as if it were legit.
That, and we have practice at it. The NWOs,and Antz, and Brandons and Toy Soldiers have been great training for the John Andersons and Alex Reynards.
Hellkell, it’s good to see you! Yeah, the trolls swarmed in from the cold last night. I can’t keep up.
It’s a balmy 48 here, how’s it by you?